The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (18 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Oh Tony I’m talking about a trade deal with India

So you know what the trade deal will be with India then? Tell me. Will it be better or worse than the one we currently have as EU members?

 

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[Astute]

The EU is arguably more likely to succeed without the UK.

Arguably yes. You would argue any point if it made the EU look better.

First of all we will see how the EU does without the billions we have pumped in each year. Then we will see what sort of trade deal we end up with. If it isn't good for us it also won't be good for the EU. Then if we do badly we won't holiday in the EU countries anywhere near as much.

But we would recover. Many EU countries are already doing badly. It would be worse for them. Even Germany, who easily do the best out of being in the EU, would be hit badly if we do badly. But you only concentrate on how the UK will do.

 

[martcov]

Why is that different if in or out of the EU?

In fact it is better being out of the EU for negotiations in a way. We will decide what WE want and will negotiate for us. Being in the EU you have to accept what they want and what they negotiate.

They are us. We are a member of the club.

It already looks as if the USA is going to ask us to lower standards for a trade deal with them. I don’t see us being in a stronger position alone.

 

[Astute]

So you know what the trade deal will be with India then? Tell me. Will it be better or worse than the one we currently have as EU members?

We all know the same.......nothing. But you will make out that we will get worse deals all the time. We might even get better deals as we will only have us to keep happy. Whereas the EU have to try and keep all happy.

 

[Astute]

They are us. We are a member of the club.

It already looks as if the USA is going to ask us to lower standards for a trade deal with them. I don’t see us being in a stronger position alone.

Looks?

What do you know that the rest of us don't?

 

[martcov]

Arguably yes. You would argue any point if it made the EU look better.

First of all we will see how the EU does without the billions we have pumped in each year. Then we will see what sort of trade deal we end up with. If it isn't good for us it also won't be good for the EU. Then if we do badly we won't holiday in the EU countries anywhere near as much.

But we would recover. Many EU countries are already doing badly. It would be worse for them. Even Germany, who easily do the best out of being in the EU, would be hit badly if we do badly. But you only concentrate on how the UK will do.

We are all losers through Brexit. I have never claimed otherwise. I see no reason for being pleased about that.

 

[martcov]

Looks?

What do you know that the rest of us don't?

Nothing. Just that the USA has published a list of points that it wants in negotiations with other countries. Common knowledge.

 

[Astute]

We are all losers through Brexit. I have never claimed otherwise. I see no reason for being pleased about that.

So who is pleased?

You never mention how bad it could be for the residents of the EU. Just how bad it could be for the residents of the UK.

If they stop the posturing the damage could be minimal for all. It depends how much they are willing to punish the citizens of the EU so they can punish the citizens of the UK.

 

[Astute]

Nothing. Just that the USA has published a list of points that it wants in negotiations with other countries. Common knowledge.

Not common knowledge of negotiations with us thought is it?

 

[skybluetony176]

We all know the same.......nothing. But you will make out that we will get worse deals all the time. We might even get better deals as we will only have us to keep happy. Whereas the EU have to try and keep all happy.

We know the trade deal we have currently with India as EU members. It’s a simple enough question to ask if we can expect it to be improved by leaving the EU.

 

[Sick Boy]

Well it may be unpalatable to you and German Mart but it’s a fact. A reasonable gesture from Tusk and Juncker to Cameron two years ago and the result would have almost certainly been different. Their arrogant intransigence put the PM and his campaign in a very weak position and was manna from heaven for the leave campaign who found that their job had been made considerably easier. I suspect millions of ‘undecideds’ were swayed as a direct result.

So it’s not a case of whose fault this is as you put it, it’s a case of recognising the facts.

In any case you’re the last one to talk about the blame game, for almost two years now you’ve been boring everyone by blaming a bus for the result and I suspect it’ll be you who’ll probably continue to do so for the next 20 years.

No worry though, the EU will be dead and buried long before then.

Hahaha! You are your like predicted a domino effect from countries such as Holland and France, what happened there?

If anything it looks as though Brexit has made the EU even more determined to succeed.

I'm sure that Cameron agreed that the UK would not be bound by any move to an ever closer union in the future?

 

[Astute]

We know the trade deal we have currently with India as EU members. It’s a simple enough question to ask if we can expect it to be improved by leaving the EU.

It doesn't need to be improved though does it?

Why would it be worse?

 

[Astute]

Hahaha! You are your like predicted a domino effect from countries such as Holland and France, what happened there?

I'm sure that Cameron agreed that the UK would not be bound by any move to an ever closer union in the future?

So the racist vote never grew?

That is a sad thing for me. The way the EU is run gives racism a voice. It is happening throughout the EU including here. But we are nowhere near the worse.

 

[Sick Boy]

It doesn't need to be improved though does it?

Why would it be worse?

Erm because the UK is a position of well known weakness and doesn't have the same bargaining power?

 

[Sick Boy]

So the racist vote never grew?

That is a sad thing for me. The way the EU is run gives racism a voice. It is happening throughout the EU including here. But we are nowhere near the worse.

You've got confused about internal EU migration and external migration/refugees into the EU, so I don't see the point in going over it again.

 

[Astute]

Hahaha! You are your like predicted a domino effect from countries such as Holland and France, what happened there?

If anything it looks as though Brexit has made the EU even more determined to succeed.

I'm sure that Cameron agreed that the UK would not be bound by any move to an ever closer union in the future?

No.

Cameron said that he had a meeting on improving our deal. Juncker said there was nothing happening. And that was days before the vote. It was that statement that most probably gave us the leave vote.

 

[Astute]

Erm because the UK is a position of well known weakness and doesn't have the same bargaining power?

Weakness?

We are not as obnoxious as those who run the EU. But that doesn't make us weak. Countries want to trade with us. And as most deals will be under WTO rules as they are now they will be similar.

 

[Astute]

You've got confused about internal EU migration and external migration/refugees into the EU, so I don't see the point in going over it again.

How am I confused?

 

[Astute]

Erm because the UK is a position of well known weakness and doesn't have the same bargaining power?

What well known weakness?

 

[Sick Boy]

No.

Cameron said that he had a meeting on improving our deal. Juncker said there was nothing happening. And that was days before the vote. It was that statement that most probably gave us the leave vote.

EU deal: Did PM get what he wanted?

 

[Astute]

Here is a pro EU look at trying to get a deal with India.....

EU hopes Brexit will help deliver an India trade deal

 

[skybluetony176]

It doesn't need to be improved though does it?

Why would it be worse?

Currently we enjoy unilateral free trade with India through the EU GSP scheme but with strict controls on travel immigration into the EU from India. There are currently negotiations going on for a FTA between the EU and India and with the EU being India’s biggest trade partner in the world the EU is well placed to lead the negotiations.

So are we going to do the same, worse or better?

India is unhappy at the controls on travel and immigration into the EU and have already stated that they want improvements on this in any trade deal with post brexit U.K. So potentially we’re leaving a free trade agreement with India (already virtually free trade) with strict controls on travel and migration for what exactly? Is there actually any room for improvement on what we currently enjoy as EU members let alone what’s being currently negotiated between the EU and India?

 

[Sick Boy]

What well known weakness?

Hahaha if you think Britain is going into trade talks with in a position to bargain then there is no help for you. Everyone knows Britain is going to be desperate to strike new trade deals and advantages will be taken.

 

[Sick Boy]

Here is a pro EU look at trying to get a deal with India.....

EU hopes Brexit will help deliver an India trade deal

The EU has a lot more bargaining power than the UK, it's unlikely the UK is going to be able to maintain the same objections when going it alone.

 

[Astute]

EU deal: Did PM get what he wanted?

This is how their dislike of each other started.

EU power struggle as Cameron tries to stop Juncker getting top job

You said Cameron was getting more reform?

Brussels boss tells PM: NO more reform to Britain's EU membership after Brexit vote

 

[Astute]

Currently we enjoy unilateral free trade with India through the EU GSP scheme but with strict controls on travel immigration into the EU from India. There are currently negotiations going on for a FTA between the EU and India and with the EU being India’s biggest trade partner in the world the EU is well placed to lead the negotiations.

So are we going to do the same, worse or better?

India is unhappy at the controls on travel and immigration into the EU and have already stated that they want improvements on this in any trade deal with post brexit U.K. So potentially we’re leaving a free trade agreement with India (already virtually free trade) with strict controls on travel and migration for what exactly? Is there actually any room for improvement on what we currently enjoy as EU members let alone what’s being currently negotiated between the EU and India?

Try looking at this link I had already posted

EU hopes Brexit will help deliver an India trade deal

 

[skybluetony176]

Try looking at this link I had already posted

EU hopes Brexit will help deliver an India trade deal

It’s an interesting article. It also highlights one of the major benefits we’ve enjoyed from membership of the single market and a bargaining chip we’re losing by leaving. Did you spot it?

 

[Astute]

Hahaha if you think Britain is going into trade talks with in a position to bargain then there is no help for you. Everyone knows Britain is going to be desperate to strike new trade deals and advantages will be taken.

No. That is your guess.

The idea of trade deals is to make trade easier between countries. They will find us easier to deal with than 27 countries of the EU. We will want what is best for us. The EU has much more to consider. They have to make a deal that benefits lots of countries.

 

[Sick Boy]

This is how their dislike of each other started.

EU power struggle as Cameron tries to stop Juncker getting top job

You said Cameron was getting more reform?

Brussels boss tells PM: NO more reform to Britain's EU membership after Brexit vote

The reforms that he had requested would still have been in place.

 

[Astute]

It’s an interesting article. It also highlights one of the major benefits we’ve enjoyed from membership of the single market. Did you spot it?

We have many benefits of being in the EU. I have never said that we don't. It isn't me trying to twist things or trying to make things look bad for us all the time.

 

[Sick Boy]

No. That is your guess.

The idea of trade deals is to make trade easier between countries. They will find us easier to deal with than 27 countries of the EU. We will want what is best for us. The EU has much more to consider. They have to make a deal that benefits lots of countries.

You're right, they'll find the UK much easier to deal with compared to the EU as they're going to get a lot more of what they ask for.

 

[Astute]

The reforms that he had requested would still have been in place.

But as it said no more reforms at all after the brexit vote. And Juncker came out with it just days before the vote.

Are you saying that it didn't cost remain votes?

 

[Astute]

You're right, they'll find the UK much easier to deal with compared to the EU as they're going to get a lot more of what they ask for.

That is your opinion. Of course you are allowed an opinion. I just wish I was allowed one on here.

 

[Grendel]

Repeat after me: geography tops all when it comes to trade.

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I won’t repeat anything after someone who once claimed food inflation had risen by 20% in a year after Brexit thanks.

FT arrangements exist with many countries who are not neighbours but have vested mutual interests. The USA with Singapore as an example

 

[skybluetony176]

We have many benefits of being in the EU. I have never said that we don't. It isn't me trying to twist things or trying to make things look bad for us all the time.

But this benefit was specific to trade with India. You said it doesn’t need to be improved which is probably a fair point although it does fly in the face of one of the major arguments of the leave campaign. You then ask why will it be worse. It tells you in the article you linked why it most likely will be worse. Did you see it?