Wasps current finances & hope (29 Viewers)

[Terry Gibson's perm]

We have never owned the stadium.
We pay very little rent and don't have the responsibility of the stadium.
We will rent for many years to come be it Wasps, Sisu or whoever owns the stadium.
Your scenario with Sisu owning the stadium and not requiring a contribution is dreamland.
If Wasps are finding it difficult we would find it impossible.
Ownership is not possible or required.

How would Sisu moving us again get rid of them ?
How does the plan go on Sisu getting ownership of the Arena ? Incredible you think they will get their money back and go as that means CCC will need to lose something like £60M.
If they want to own the stadium why would they not build one somewhere else ?
Then the team and the stadium would be owned by Sisu and could be sold ?
Why if somebody wanted to buy CCFC could they not build a stadium somewhere else. It would be cheaper than buying the Ricoh.

As I said previously it's a case of 'we can't have it so nobody can'.

No we need to piggy back off Wasps.
Your scenario is dreamland and would finish the club if attempted.

I don’t get the bit about if wasps find it difficult we will find it impossible as you don’t know who they would bring into run it maybe somebody with skills in the field.

Are wasps not finding it difficult because they have ladden it with massive debt at mind blowing interest costs?

 

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[pastythegreat]

We have never owned the stadium.
We pay very little rent and don't have the responsibility of the stadium.
We will rent for many years to come be it Wasps, Sisu or whoever owns the stadium.
Your scenario with Sisu owning the stadium and not requiring a contribution is dreamland.
If Wasps are finding it difficult we would find it impossible.
Ownership is not possible or required.

How would Sisu moving us again get rid of them ?
How does the plan go on Sisu getting ownership of the Arena ? Incredible you think they will get their money back and go as that means CCC will need to lose something like £60M.
If they want to own the stadium why would they not build one somewhere else ?
Then the team and the stadium would be owned by Sisu and could be sold ?
Why if somebody wanted to buy CCFC could they not build a stadium somewhere else. It would be cheaper than buying the Ricoh.

As I said previously it's a case of 'we can't have it so nobody can'.

No we need to piggy back off Wasps.
Your scenario is dreamland and would finish the club if attempted.

If building a new stadium is cheaper than buying the Ricoh then a) why didn't w***s build a new stadium? And b) why did it cost over £100m to build the Ricoh but only cost w***s the equivalent of a £14m bank loan?

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[Deleted member 5849]

If Wasps wanted to own a stadium, why didn't they build one?

Especially with such a generous owner, only interested in the club and its proud history.

 

[clint van damme]

I don’t get the bit about if wasps find it difficult we will find it impossible as you don’t know who they would bring into run it maybe somebody with skills in the field.

Are wasps not finding it difficult because they have ladden it with massive debt at mind blowing interest costs?

I doubt very much sisu will ever own the Ricoh but in the unlikely event they did I think that's exactly what they'd do. Franchise it out as they've done with everything else.

 

[italiahorse]

If building a new stadium is cheaper than buying the Ricoh then a) why didn't w***s build a new stadium? And b) why did it cost over £100m to build the Ricoh but only cost w***s the equivalent of a £14m bank loan?

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People keep saying that Sisu will get the Ricoh and then sell on to get their money back.
If thats the case then they will be spending many millions.
In that situation it would be cheaper to build a new stadium.
Wasp lease the stadium, they don't own it. If Sisu did the same they would not be able to sell the stadium to get back the losses.
Sometimes people need to look forward rather than backward.

 

[italiahorse]

I don’t get the bit about if wasps find it difficult we will find it impossible as you don’t know who they would bring into run it maybe somebody with skills in the field.

Are wasps not finding it difficult because they have ladden it with massive debt at mind blowing interest costs?

No they effectively have the stadium for 250 years, owe £35M on assets worth £60M.
They are moving in the right direction to become profitable and after only 2 full years.
Business wise It's remarkable how they've done so far.

If only Sisu had done exactly the same instead of trying to make a quick buck for themselves at the expense of CCC and Higgs.
Seems nothing what Wasps paid for the lease but Sisu said they wouldn't pay it.
Which is very confusing as they are now in court saying Wasps didn't pay enough.
They are taking the pi$$ or perhaps you can answer the logic here ?

 

[italiahorse]

If Wasps wanted to own a stadium, why didn't they build one?

They couldn't afford it and because there was a 'white elephant' no one wanted going cheap.

 

[italiahorse]

I don't think we even make 50% do we? Haven't even seen details of the new rent agreement other than it's for 12 months.

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If I can remember we get 50% of the Wasps cut from Compass which is 15%. £75K a year at the last count.

 

[Nick]

They couldn't afford it and because there was a 'white elephant' no one wanted going cheap.

In which case if a stadium comes up for SISU to move CCFC to you on the cheap will be fully behind it?

This is where you have no consistency and you embarrass yourself.

 

[Nick]

No they effectively have the stadium for 250 years, owe £35M on assets worth £60M.
They are moving in the right direction to become profitable and after only 2 full years.
Business wise It's remarkable how they've done so far.

If only Sisu had done exactly the same instead of trying to make a quick buck for themselves at the expense of CCC and Higgs.
Seems nothing what Wasps paid for the lease but Sisu said they wouldn't pay it.
Which is very confusing as they are now in court saying Wasps didn't pay enough.
They are taking the pi$$ or perhaps you can answer the logic here ?

Are you dizzy with all of that spinning you are trying to do?

Businesswise, they falsified evidence to try and fool bond holders. That's remarkable, the silence from you about that, the telegraph and other places is even more so.

If SISU had done the same, loaded debt onto the Ricoh and given themselves £10m, provided false information to try and cook the books, I am pretty sure you would have had a different view.

 

[italiahorse]

In which case if a stadium comes up for SISU to move CCFC to you on the cheap will be fully behind it?

This is where you have no consistency and you embarrass yourself.

If they need to do that they need to take into account the fans and the finances.
No point moving if there is no fans when they get there.
You must agree that Wasps fanbase has actually increased since coming here.
I would guess if they moved us too far from Coventry most would not follow and the new location would almost certainly have a football team established.
I personally would not go.
Consistent as ever and not in the slightest embarrassed.

What would you like to see happen ? Other than Wasps going and hope a miracle happens.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

No point moving if there is no fans when they get there.

There'll always be the Telford of Glaswegian equivalent of you to tap into...

 

[Nick]

If they need to do that they need to take into account the fans and the finances.
No point moving if there is no fans when they get there.
You must agree that Wasps fanbase has actually increased since coming here.
I would guess if they moved us too far from Coventry most would not follow and the new location would almost certainly have a football team established.
I personally would not go.
Consistent as ever and not in the slightest embarrassed.

What would you like to see happen ? Other than Wasps going and hope a miracle happens.

Nicely sidetracked away from the actual question...

Would you support a move 80 miles away if there was a cheap stadium? Yes or No?

 

[chiefdave]

We have never owned the stadium.
We pay very little rent and don't have the responsibility of the stadium.
We will rent for many years to come be it Wycombe Wanderers or whoever owns the stadium.
Your scenario with Moonstone owning the stadium and not requiring a contribution is dreamland.
If Wycombe are finding it difficult we would find it impossible.
Ownership is not possible or required.

How would Moonstone moving us again get rid of them ?
How does the plan go on Moonstone getting ownership of the Arena ? Incredible you think they will get their money back and go as that means CCC will need to lose something like £60M.
If they want to own the stadium why would they not build one somewhere else ?
Then the team and the stadium would be owned by Moonstone and could be sold ?
Why if somebody wanted to buy Wasps could they not build a stadium somewhere else. It would be cheaper than buying the Ricoh.

As I said previously it's a case of 'we can't have it so nobody can'.

No we need to piggy back off CCFC.
Your scenario is dreamland and would finish the club if attempted.

 

[italiahorse]

There'll always be the Telford of Glaswegian equivalent of you to tap into...

There won't, believe me.

 

[italiahorse]

Nicely sidetracked away from the actual question...

Would you support a move 80 miles away if there was a cheap stadium? Yes or No?

No one would here support a move 80 miles away to see a team called Coventry City. I certainly would not bother.
If they showed me a better business case than the Ricoh I might consider a move to say the NEC or Meriden.

Wasps have the advantage of a name that does not tie them to a particular place and a good proportion of already nomad supporters that understood their situation and seem to be supporting it.
They have also picked up local support that are developing a sense of belonging and in some cases a new found love of rugby.
It was a big risk that appears to be paying off.

Sisu need to give us a plan, rather than saying they want to build a new stadium and a few fans getting excited about.
What do they want should be the question, why are they going through the courts on our behalf and do they want the Ricoh and under what circumstances.
Any one worth their salt will already know the answer to the last part but what does that mean for CCFC in the long run ?

 

[italiahorse]

So what's the Sisu plan you are blindly following CD ?
Don't you think someone should ask them ?

 

[chiefdave]

We have never owned the stadium.

We owned HR and there's no reason that in the future we couldn't own our own stadium. Even the council were suggesting that, albeit they had already agreed to sell to Wasps when they were saying it.

We pay very little rent and don't have the responsibility of the stadium.

We also pay way over the top on matchday costs and don't get the money we generate.

If Wasps are finding it difficult we would find it impossible.

Yet again you've failed to explain how 80 plus football clubs can afford to own and operate their own stadium yet it would be beyond us.

Ownership is not possible or required.

Correct ownership isn't required, access to revenues is and we will never get them while someone like Wasps are in control. Renting off a council at a reasonable rent with access to all revenues works for other clubs and could work for us.

How does the plan go on Sisu getting ownership of the Arena ? Incredible you think they will get their money back and go as that means CCC will need to lose something like £60M.

Where on earth has £60m come from?

If ACL had gone bust, the direction it seemed to be heading before the council bailed it out, or if similar happened under Wasps ownership, which seems increasingly likely, then the lease and / or freehold would become available. It stands to reason that if it was available to Wasps for £6m then, having failed, it would be available again at £6m or less.

So, finger in the air figures time, lets say SISU take on the Ricoh for £5m, bundle it up with CCFC and sell it on for £20m. They get what they need to walk away, we get a club with a stadium with new owners. How could any supporter not want something like that to happen?

As I've said many times before the most damage done to the club was when CCC sold to Wasps. That second the chances of anyone wanting to ever buy us dropped like a stone.

If they want to own the stadium why would they not build one somewhere else ?

Why would anyone build a new stadium in Coventry when there's a stadium purpose built for the club in the city?

Why if somebody wanted to buy CCFC could they not build a stadium somewhere else. It would be cheaper than buying the Ricoh.

How and where are you building a new 30K stadium in Coventry for less than Wasps paid for the Ricoh?

 

[chiefdave]

I don’t get the bit about if wasps find it difficult we will find it impossible as you don’t know who they would bring into run it maybe somebody with skills in the field.

That was exactly the plan. AEG, the worlds most successful venue operators, were taking on the complex and from what I am led to believe paying a license fee plus % to the club. We would also have retained all revenues generated on match days.

TBH I think AEG would have ended up as our owners. They own numerous other teams in various sports and have had a lot of success with them.

Stadiums | AEG Worldwide
Arenas | AEG Worldwide
Convention Centers | AEG Worldwide
Ticketing & Other Businesses | AEG Worldwide
Festivals | AEG Worldwide
AEG Presents | Artists
Artist Roster

Don't think there would have been any shortage of concerts and events with them running things.

 

[Nick]

No one would here support a move 80 miles away to see a team called Coventry City. I certainly would not bother.
If they showed me a better business case than the Ricoh I might consider a move to say the NEC or Meriden.

Wasps have the advantage of a name that does not tie them to a particular place and a good proportion of already nomad supporters that understood their situation and seem to be supporting it.
They have also picked up local support that are developing a sense of belonging and in some cases a new found love of rugby.
It was a big risk that appears to be paying off.

Sisu need to give us a plan, rather than saying they want to build a new stadium and a few fans getting excited about.
What do they want should be the question, why are they going through the courts on our behalf and do they want the Ricoh and under what circumstances.
Any one worth their salt will already know the answer to the last part but what does that mean for CCFC in the long run ?

They only have advantage of a name that doesnt tie them to a place because they changed it just before they moved...

 

[Nick]

So what's the Sisu plan you are blindly following CD ?
Don't you think someone should ask them ?

Who is blindly following anything apart from you posting your Wasps shite on here? Here you go again accusing people of blindly following SISU, read your posts back...

 

[oldskyblue58]

I have an accounting degree so will take a look tonight and try and fill osb’s shoes.

Won’t do too good a job though wouldn’t want osb’s job on here full time!

Thanks speedie87 Think you got the main points in the figures. Good Job Dont book anything for the first two weeks in August ! hahaha

 

[chiefdave]

People keep saying that Sisu will get the Ricoh and then sell on to get their money back.
If thats the case then they will be spending many millions.
In that situation it would be cheaper to build a new stadium.
Wasp lease the stadium, they don't own it. If Sisu did the same they would not be able to sell the stadium to get back the losses.
Sometimes people need to look forward rather than backward.

A 250 year lease is the same as owning it to all intents and purposes. What state do you expect the stadium to be in by the end of the lease. How many PL or FL clubs are currently playing in 250 year old stadiums?

Why would it be cheaper to build a new stadium. Look at the cost of building the Ricoh and now compare that to what Wasps paid.

 

[chiefdave]

If I can remember we get 50% of the Wasps cut from Compass which is 15%. £75K a year at the last count.

You could have just said we get 7.5% of the profit on the money we generate. The other 92.5% goes elsewhere.

 

[Captain Dart]

But what will happen after Wasps leave ?
Reminder : We are not at the top level and the main reason we are where we are is because of mistakes made when we were at the top level.

Same sort of mistakes Wasps are making now. Over reaching.

 

[chiefdave]

If they need to do that they need to take into account the fans and the finances.
No point moving if there is no fans when they get there.

Obviously totally made up but lets say Linfield and SISU agreed a merger. The FL agree as having a team over there would be a good move from a business perspective. A ticket drive is done, similar to how they gauge interest in new franchises in the US and 15K commit to season tickets.

You'd then be all in favour of the club moving and merging into another club?

After all financially it makes sense and ticket sales show the fans in the city we'd move to are for it. At that point surely it doesn't matter that we no longer have a club in Coventry or what the fans here think.

 

[oldskyblue58]

You should hop on a bus to Il Nido's and have a meal there. It's worth it just for the view, but the food is good too.

Thanks for the recommendation

We were staying at Hotel President ...... high on the hill to the right of Sorrento if looking from the sea. Really great views, Visited all the famous places like Pompeii, Herculaeneum, Positano, Isle of Capri, Vesuvius ........ i need a rest

Naples airport bit a night mare and the traffic

 

[italiahorse]

We owned HR and there's no reason that in the future we couldn't own our own stadium. Even the council were suggesting that, albeit they had already agreed to sell to Wasps when they were saying it.
Wheres the evidence we would own it rather than rent it?

We also pay way over the top on matchday costs and don't get the money we generate.
Says who ?
If so, then get a long term deal and put in safeguards that increase incomes as we generate more.
Also buy into some incomes rather than expect them for nothing.

Yet again you've failed to explain how 80 plus football clubs can afford to own and operate their own stadium yet it would be beyond us.
We have Sisu in control just using us as a puppet.

Correct ownership isn't required, access to revenues is and we will never get them while someone like Wasps are in control. Renting off a council at a reasonable rent with access to all revenues works for other clubs and could work for us.
Then Sisu need to buy into them not just be expected to be given them.

Where on earth has £60m come from?
A indépendant valuation? Anyway as long as its the right side of £35M I guess its okay.

If ACL had gone bust, the direction it seemed to be heading before the council bailed it out, or if similar happened under Wasps ownership, which seems increasingly likely, then the lease and / or freehold would become available. It stands to reason that if it was available to Wasps for £6m then, having failed, it would be available again at £6m or less.
So was Wasps a good option for the council ?

So, finger in the air figures time, lets say SISU take on the Ricoh for £5m, bundle it up with CCFC and sell it on for £20m. They get what they need to walk away, we get a club with a stadium with new owners. How could any supporter not want something like that to happen?
We wouldn't own it we would lease it. Are rent contribution would need to support it as before at the start.

As I've said many times before the most damage done to the club was when CCC sold to Wasps. That second the chances of anyone wanting to ever buy us dropped like a stone.
Thats Sisu's fault for firstly buying the club and taking on the rent and secondly not trying to obtain it fairly (JR1).

Why would anyone build a new stadium in Coventry when there's a stadium purpose built for the club in the city?
They won't, when Sisu are finally gone the new owners will realise that you don't need to own the stadium with a good long term deal.

How and where are you building a new 30K stadium in Coventry for less than Wasps paid for the Ricoh?
Ask Sisu, they said they wanted too and thought the Wasps deal was too expensive. Well they did at the time but JR2 says they have now changed their minds.

 

[italiahorse]

Obviously totally made up but lets say Linfield and SISU agreed a merger. The FL agree as having a team over there would be a good move from a business perspective. A ticket drive is done, similar to how they gauge interest in new franchises in the US and 15K commit to season tickets.

You'd then be all in favour of the club moving and merging into another club?

After all financially it makes sense and ticket sales show the fans in the city we'd move to are for it. At that point surely it doesn't matter that we no longer have a club in Coventry or what the fans here think.

The FL won't. It won't be call CCFC.

 

[Nick]

The FL won't. It won't be call CCFC.

It's weird you keep saying it won't be called CCFC.

Just change the name a couple of months before the move. Simple.

 

[italiahorse]

It's weird you keep saying it won't be called CCFC.

Just change the name a couple of months before the move. Simple.

It was only London Wasps for 15 years. It was just Wasps for 135 years before that.

 

[Astute]

We have never owned the stadium.
We pay very little rent and don't have the responsibility of the stadium.
We will rent for many years to come be it Wasps, Sisu or whoever owns the stadium.
Your scenario with Sisu owning the stadium and not requiring a contribution is dreamland.
If Wasps are finding it difficult we would find it impossible.
Ownership is not possible or required.

How would Sisu moving us again get rid of them ?
How does the plan go on Sisu getting ownership of the Arena ? Incredible you think they will get their money back and go as that means CCC will need to lose something like £60M.
If they want to own the stadium why would they not build one somewhere else ?
Then the team and the stadium would be owned by Sisu and could be sold ?
Why if somebody wanted to buy CCFC could they not build a stadium somewhere else. It would be cheaper than buying the Ricoh.

As I said previously it's a case of 'we can't have it so nobody can'.

No we need to piggy back off Wasps.
Your scenario is dreamland and would finish the club if attempted.

Dreamland? Me?

You are right. We have never owned the arena. And we have been in the shite since Richardson sold HR and it never got replaced by us.

Wasps.....or the other dodgy Richardson....piled debt onto the arena. So now they have to find over 2m a year just to cover interest payments. Then in 4 years they have to find another 35m. They are letting their best players go as they can't afford them. So they will be selling even less tickets.

Yet you make out all is well and in target.

So where is the money going to come from to pay the interest? Where is the 35m going to come from?

Oh yes they can carry on paying massive interest payments for 4 years and then release more bonds to pay off the old ones. And continue to find well over 2m to continue to pay the interest.

But they are miles away from their core fan base. They are not in the best place to make millions just to stand still. It looks like they falsified the accounts to make things look better. But even then it would have been another big loss.

Then you think it is a dreamland situation of SISU getting the arena. But they are next in line to be wrapped up in litigation.

I don't trust SISU with the arena. But it is the only hope we have. And I don't see any reason why they wouldn't look for a buyer once they have the arena.

 

[Nick]

It was only London Wasps for 15 years. It was just Wasps for 135 years before that.

What's your point?

Did they change the name to remove a location just before they moved? Yes or no....

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Thanks for the recommendation

We were staying at Hotel President ...... high on the hill to the right of Sorrento if looking from the sea. Really great views, Visited all the famous places like Pompeii, Herculaeneum, Positano, Isle of Capri, Vesuvius ........ i need a rest

Naples airport bit a night mare and the traffic

Did they tell you vesuvius is overdue an eruption, and when it comes it'll be bigger than Pompeii?

Loved around there, would love to go back - undoubtedly I'll pick the week Vesuvius lets go

But I am *never* driving around Sorrento ever again.

 

[italiahorse]

What's your point?

Did they change the name to remove a location just before they moved? Yes or no....

They were in Wycombe not London.
They have been Called just Wasps for 135 years out of 150.
It was a good name change if they were never going back to London.
What's your point ?