Court Case Thread! June 2018 (12 Viewers)

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Are you saying that an empty stadium and CCFC in Northampton is better for the people of Coventry than having Wasps and CCFC here?

No but what I’m saying is.. is once Wasps fuck off, the lease reverts to the council and the club negotiates again with it unencumbered.

At least that option remains

 

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[djbooth]

What I find interesting is that support for the wasps is fading. I looked at the Aviva Premiership attendance figuers and last season was around 190k. The season before that around 250k. That’s a big drop. The biggest attendances last season was around 25k. The season before 32k. Wasps. Claim that the average is up, but this calculated on a year by year basis. If you did last season vs the one before. It’s dropped. I do think the bubble has burst. The squad isn’t as good this year. Also with us being on the raise this will have an impact on wasps attendance. There is a really good feeling about next season for us. I’m not wasps fans are feeling good about their next season. The total amount of fans to see Ccfc was around 260k last season so the chances are we spent more money.

 

[Grendel]

Every city/town should have a variety of events and businesses that generates wealth for the economy of that environment. The actual type of sport of events is immaterial. As ever your snapping without thinking. The profile of the economic generating activities will vary according to the environment. Thats a local decision

Well no I am thinking and I can’t think of any evidence you’ve supplied that any revenue comes to the city, how it benefits anyone and why franchising is morally acceptable. We could open a load of brothels I guess and make us the sex capital of England. Make some extra money.

 

[covmark]

No! I’m not advocating anything. Somebody said CCFC would be the greater loss to the city and I was just pointing out that doesn’t seem to be the case on a financial basis.



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Fucking hell.
The football club would be the greater loss to the city because it's been a part of the fabric of the city for over 130 years you cretin. Fuck the financial basis.

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[djr8369]

Fucking hell.
The football club would be the greater loss to the city because it's been a part of the fabric of the city for over 130 years you cretin. Fuck the financial basis.

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Fuck me this is hard work.

As I’ve said more than once already, “emotional connection aside”!!!!

I don’t care for the financials, I would rather CCFC be in the city and have said leaving again would likely kill the momentum and improved relations with the fans.

I was just pointing out it’s hard to justify that either leaving would be better or worse for the city!



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[Captain Dart]

Will it? Attendance for wasps is higher so much bring more revenue to the city?


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But registers ZERO on an emotional scale.

 

[djr8369]

But registers ZERO on an emotional scale.

For us. Presumably not for the fans who attend who according to Grendel all live in CV postcodes.


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[djr8369]

What I find interesting is that support for the wasps is fading. I looked at the Aviva Premiership attendance figuers and last season was around 190k. The season before that around 250k. That’s a big drop. The biggest attendances last season was around 25k. The season before 32k. Wasps. Claim that the average is up, but this calculated on a year by year basis. If you did last season vs the one before. It’s dropped. I do think the bubble has burst. The squad isn’t as good this year. Also with us being on the raise this will have an impact on wasps attendance. There is a really good feeling about next season for us. I’m not wasps fans are feeling good about their next season. The total amount of fans to see Ccfc was around 260k last season so the chances are we spent more money.

Sounds like their move up here to bring in extra revenue could really backfire.


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[ccfcway]

Look I’m sure we can all agree that the greatest outcome here would be:
- wasps lose and go bankrupt
- SISU take their money and sell the club
- ACL go bust, with the lease returning to the council unencumbered

The club can then re-negotiate a new deal and we’re all hunky dory

good post, but to be honest, the first 7 words will never happen on here..

We wouldn't get an agreement about what day comes after Tuesday

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

Mr Thompson, Sisu QC says: “This is not a Punch and Judy show "

oh yes it is !

"That's the way to do it"

 

[fernandopartridge]

For us. Presumably not for the fans who attend who according to Grendel all live in CV postcodes.


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They like the gimmick. How many of them go away matches?

 

[fernandopartridge]

good post, but to be honest, the first 7 words will never happen on here..

We wouldn't get an agreement about what day comes after Tuesday

It's one of Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday or Monday. Unless you're asking which day is immediately after Tuesday. *this is how we roll

 

[chiefdave]

Do we want SISU to win so we can get a share of the Ricoh or lose because we despise them ?

IMO a SISU win would mean we get rid of them quicker so that would be the preference.

are Wasps doing better then expected? Is it worth 3 x more since Wasps took over? Thought they were doing okay at best.

The valuations Wasps have had done for the bonds state that they are reliant on information supplied by Wasps, we know from the issues with their accounts how accurate that is.

I like how they say the collapse of wasps will affect the wider community.... how does it affect Coventry?

Wasps did seem to be too concerned about the effect on the wider community when they ditched them to move here.

Are you saying that an empty stadium and CCFC in Northampton is better for the people of Coventry than having Wasps and CCFC here?

I don't know what goes on in your head for you to state as fact that should Wasp go bust the stadium will be empty and we will move to Northampton.

Attendance for wasps is higher so much bring more revenue to the city?

CCFC bring more event days to the area than Wasps. Their total yearly visitors are also higher.

And of course it looks like Wasps are at the top end of what they are going to achieve attendance wise whereas we know that should we get back in the Championship we have the potential to treble our attendances.

I would also suggest that with Wasps encouraging people to get to the Ricoh before the games and stay after them the impact on local businesses is less than when CCFC are the pubs are rammed.

 

[hotrod]

Surely the biggest thing against SISU is that they have already broken a legal agreement to pay their rent,so what is to say they will not do so again should they form a partnership with another entity.

Regards.

 

[italiahorse]

CD
I’m comparing how it was before Wasps came and now. Not a future fact. However .....
They have history of doing it.
They won’t buy it at cost.
They have stated they want the freehold.
They will be the only customer
They have been wounded by the council.
You are naive to think they would not do it again.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

CD
I’m comparing how it was before Wasps came and now. Not a future fact. However .....
They have history of doing it.
They won’t buy it at cost.
They have stated they want the freehold.
They will be the only customer
They have been wounded by the council.
You are naive to think they would not do it again.

Correct. But as I’ve stated if ACL were to go bust. The lease reverts back to the council.

The Ricoh then has more value. It would be unencumbered. This is different to the past.

As the Wasps QC said “it would be like comparing apples and pears

I’ve said it before, it would benefit everyone if ACL went bust

 

[skybluetony176]

Correct. But as I’ve stated if ACL were to go bust. The lease reverts back to the council.

The Ricoh then has more value. It would be unencumbered. This is different to the past.

As the Wasps QC said “it would be like comparing apples and pears

I’ve said it before, it would benefit everyone if ACL went bust

Except the Coventry tax payer who would have lost millions as the loan wouldn’t have been paid back. Maybe people should remember that point when saying CCC had a duty to secure the best deal for the taxpayer. They offloaded ACL and secured payment of the loan in the process. Selling it encumbered was always going to be the best deal for the taxpayer.

 

[tisza]

I’m

Except the Coventry tax payer who would have lost millions as the loan wouldn’t have been paid back. Maybe people should remember that point when saying CCC had a duty to secure the best deal for the taxpayer. They offloaded ACL and secured payment of the loan in the process. Selling it encumbered was always going to be the best deal for the taxpayer.

why? Pre-Wasps ACL goes bust as CCC haven't borrowed money to pay off ACL original loan? No ACL and lease reverts to CCC?

 

[skybluetony176]

why? Pre-Wasps ACL goes bust as CCC haven't borrowed money to pay off ACL original loan? No ACL and lease reverts to CCC?

Because JR2 is about the sale of ACL. At the point of sale the loan already existed. It’s also well established in law because of JR1 that CCC we’re well within their rights to lend to ACL the amount they did at the time they did with ACL in the financial position they were at the time. That has been proven as fact, hence SISU lost JR1 and all subsequent appeals.

CCC had a duty to secure the repayment of that loan first and foremost to secure the best deal for the taxpayer. The only way they could possibly achieve that is selling it encumbered, which is what they did. I’m actually surprised that CCC’s legal team haven’t made that point.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Except the Coventry tax payer who would have lost millions as the loan wouldn’t have been paid back. Maybe people should remember that point when saying CCC had a duty to secure the best deal for the taxpayer. They offloaded ACL and secured payment of the loan in the process. Selling it encumbered was always going to be the best deal for the taxpayer.

You’ve missed the part where the lease reverts back to CCC, they get to sell the lease again...

It’s more valuable with no existing contracts or debts

 

[skybluetony176]

You’ve missed the part where the lease reverts back to CCC, they get to sell the lease again...

It’s more valuable with no existing contracts or debts

It’s a fair point and possibly true but also an assumption that any subsequent sale of the lease would have recovered the money outstanding on the loan. Before you even factor in what they got for their share of ACL and for the extension of the lease. Plus it also secured some return on an investment that a local charity invested in good faith that they would have lost completely. Something that also could be deemed as value to the taxpayer.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

It’s a fair point and possibly true but also an assumption that any subsequent sale of the lease would have recovered the money outstanding on the loan. Before you even factor in what they got for their share of ACL and for the extension of the lease. Plus it also secured some return on an investment that a local charity invested in good faith that they would have lost completely. Something that also could be deemed as value to the taxpayer.

There’s more chance that SISU would have taken that on.

It was already argued that the 200 year lease effectively amounts to ownership given the lifetime of the stadium - as per JR1

SISU also made an offer that was worth the same as what wasps offered for the Higgs share.

Let’s face it, there is a case to answer here because despite them arguing it.. the council had some sort of control of the Higgs share due to the veto. I for one really hope this one backfired purely on wasps. Or they pay the £27 Million that has been missed out on as a result of council ineptitude

 

[chiefdave]

Except the Coventry tax payer who would have lost millions as the loan wouldn’t have been paid back.

What loan? We're talking about if Wasps go bust now, the loan is already repaid and I couldn't care less about bondholders losing money.

Lease reverts to the council with a chance to do things properly this time and sell a long lease or freehold without the purchaser needing to be in tens of millions of debt from day one. Running the Ricoh as a viable ongoing business without that noose around your neck is a very different prospect to what has been experienced in the past.

But if you want to talk about the old loan the obvious solution would have been for CCC not to bail out ACL and risk taxpayers money in the first place. After all they have repeatedly stated other lenders would have made the loan on the same terms so why didn't they let them go elsewhere. Don't think anyone would have lost any sleep if ACL had collapsed and the banks lost out.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I’m going to put it out there... I hope SISU win this one

 

[Hobo]

No judgement today but not back in court tomorrow? Does that mean the judges don't think its an open and shut case and want to dig deeper in to the documents provided?

Or they would rather just watch the World Cup on TV.

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

What loan? We're talking about if Wasps go bust now, the loan is already repaid and I couldn't care less about bondholders losing money.

Lease reverts to the council with a chance to do things properly this time and sell a long lease or freehold without the purchaser needing to be in tens of millions of debt from day one. Running the Ricoh as a viable ongoing business without that noose around your neck is a very different prospect to what has been experienced in the past.

But if you want to talk about the old loan the obvious solution would have been for CCC not to bail out ACL and risk taxpayers money in the first place. After all they have repeatedly stated other lenders would have made the loan on the same terms so why didn't they let them go elsewhere. Don't think anyone would have lost any sleep if ACL had collapsed and the banks lost out.

Good points - well made. The citizens of Coventry are no longer exposed to losses incurred at the Ricoh. The issue could be "Who would be a potential new business we would trust to maximise the value of the site"? Given that any liquidators would be seeking to sell the asset. Certainly CCC would not be in a hurry to pick up the ongoing liability, given the loses previously made.....so do we trust SISU to own the stadium?

 

[Magwitch]

I’m going to put it out there... I hope SISU win this one

That only means there will be judicial review doesn’t it, yesterdays case I believe was to seek a review which has been denied at previous hearings

 

[skybluetony176]

What loan? We're talking about if Wasps go bust now, the loan is already repaid and I couldn't care less about bondholders losing money.

Lease reverts to the council with a chance to do things properly this time and sell a long lease or freehold without the purchaser needing to be in tens of millions of debt from day one. Running the Ricoh as a viable ongoing business without that noose around your neck is a very different prospect to what has been experienced in the past.

But if you want to talk about the old loan the obvious solution would have been for CCC not to bail out ACL and risk taxpayers money in the first place. After all they have repeatedly stated other lenders would have made the loan on the same terms so why didn't they let them go elsewhere. Don't think anyone would have lost any sleep if ACL had collapsed and the banks lost out.

If Wasps go bust now happy days. But JR2 isn’t dealing with what would happen if Wasps go bust now, the judge was clear on that to Wasps QC yesterday. I’m not going to argue over a hypothetical scenario and neither is the court. It’s dealing in what has happened not what could happen.

 

[Grendel]

Except the Coventry tax payer who would have lost millions as the loan wouldn’t have been paid back. Maybe people should remember that point when saying CCC had a duty to secure the best deal for the taxpayer. They offloaded ACL and secured payment of the loan in the process. Selling it encumbered was always going to be the best deal for the taxpayer.

The loan the council bought off an independent source and claimed it would make money for the council for years you mean? They exposed the taxpayer to the risk in the first place didn’t they?

 

[smileycov]

Good points - well made. The citizens of Coventry are no longer exposed to losses incurred at the Ricoh. The issue could be "Who would be a potential new business we would trust to maximise the value of the site"? Given that any liquidators would be seeking to sell the asset. Certainly CCC would not be in a hurry to pick up the ongoing liability, given the loses previously made.....so do we trust SISU to own the stadium?

If sisu own the stadium, then sell us - do they sell the stadium with us? We still not attractive to purchase without are we?

 

[jphccfc]

When are we expecting a verdict?

 

[ccfcway]

When are we expecting a verdict?

likely to be around the year 2023.

I reckon we are about half way there now with court room battles?.

This review appeal, the review if they win, if they don't, civil action starts

 

[skybluesam66]

If sisu own the stadium, then sell us - do they sell the stadium with us? We still not attractive to purchase without are we?

The higher up the pyramid you are, the more attractive you are to sell

A championship team with championship valued players and Championship incomes with an operating model that was not loss making, would have a value significantly higher than the league 2 team in the same situation

 

[chiefdave]

If sisu own the stadium, then sell us - do they sell the stadium with us? We still not attractive to purchase without are we?

There's a simple solution to that. A term of the lease to tie the club and stadium together. You can create a lease that is to all intents and purposes the freehold, by giving it a length longer than the life of the stadium say 250 years for example!

 

[Grendel]

Good points - well made. The citizens of Coventry are no longer exposed to losses incurred at the Ricoh. The issue could be "Who would be a potential new business we would trust to maximise the value of the site"? Given that any liquidators would be seeking to sell the asset. Certainly CCC would not be in a hurry to pick up the ongoing liability, given the loses previously made.....so do we trust SISU to own the stadium?

Coventry citizens were never at risk to losses anyway - it was a Council decision to purchase the loan