The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (250 Viewers)

[Grendel]

You ever answered a question on topic or without another question?

I always answer questions - avoidance and denial is your style not mine - these are hardly earth shattering questions and are hardly things that the government will not be considering.

Equally other similar federations across Europe are concerned for members jobs of Britain are hit with punitive tariffs when Brexit happens have they not?

 

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[martcov]

I always answer questions - avoidance and denial is your style not mine - these are hardly earth shattering questions and are hardly things that the government will not be considering.

Equally other similar federations across Europe are concerned for members jobs of Britain are hit with punitive tariffs when Brexit happens have they not?

Your English is sometimes hard to understand. First paragraph ok. Second not so easy to understand.

Everyone is concerned about job losses through Brexit. Very understandable.

Who stands to benefit economically?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I am not playing with numbers. The nation is not behind Brexit. It wasn’t on the day leave won and it definitely isn’t now.

Leave won a vote, but they didn’t have the nation behind them. It was a narrow win, not an overwhelming victory.

Still in denial? Poor love

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[martcov]

Still in denial? Poor love

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What have I denied? We are up shit creek without a paddle? May was weakened not strengthened when she asked voters to back „Brexit means Brexit“? That the referendum was lost 52:48? I have merely confirmed that you are talking bollocks claiming that the Nation wants Brexit. Half the nation at least doesn’t want it. Even on the day around half of voters voted against Brexit. The nation is split and, in effect, rudderless.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Oh, I see. Then you will be pleased to see our farmers asking for the dropping all EU farming regulations. NFU advised it’s members to vote remain. I wonder why.

Self interest obviously. The same as you & many others. You think everyone that voted leave did so for spite or race or some other foibles to do with being 'led up the garden path'. MORE denial - most probably had a specific self interest &/or wisdom that you & I didn't, & they voted accordingly.
Now you must be familiar with that notion. EU country like Britain has a negative issue with immigration. Nothing happens other than hot air, vague agreements & inaction. Germany has a negative issue with immigration...& then the issue becomes a point of major discussion & need for policy enforcement or change for the EU as a whole. You know...self interest?!
But you will not accept that because you are in denial that Germany, abetted mostly by France, force the EU agenda.

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[SkyblueBazza]

No. Some of them thought we would vote remain so didn’t bother voting.

Well I guess anyone can glibly say that many that wanted to leave didn't bother to vote because the pollsters had pissed on their chips in the lead up. They thought it was pointless.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I didn’t say that. You made it up. As usual.

You have intimated EXACTLY that - MANY MANY TIMES!

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[SkyblueBazza]

No, I am saying they advise remain .. presumably to keep up this protectionism and there is no way they are not lobbying to keep it that way. So no change there if we leave.

But you are in favour of protectionism. That is one of your main readons for remaining isn't it? Protected free-trade with the EU?

I don't know how you manage to type given the bloody knots you tie yourself up in!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Your English is sometimes hard to understand. First paragraph ok. Second not so easy to understand.

Everyone is concerned about job losses through Brexit. Very understandable.

Who stands to benefit economically?

So your last two posts have actually been questions in answer to questions!


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[SkyblueBazza]

What have I denied? We are up shit creek without a paddle? PERSONAL OPINION
May was weakened not strengthened when she asked voters to back „Brexit means Brexit“? PERSONAL OPINION
That the referendum was lost 52:48? I have merely confirmed that you are talking bollocks claiming that the Nation wants Brexit.PERSONAL OPINION
Half the nation at least doesn’t want it.PERSONAL OPINION
Even on the day around half of voters voted against Brexit. The nation is split and, in effect, rudderless.PERSONAL OPINION

Different day...same old bollocks!


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[SIR ERNIE]

What have I denied? We are up shit creek without a paddle? May was weakened not strengthened when she asked voters to back „Brexit means Brexit“? That the referendum was lost 52:48? I have merely confirmed that you are talking bollocks claiming that the Nation wants Brexit. Half the nation at least doesn’t want it. Even on the day around half of voters voted against Brexit. The nation is split and, in effect, rudderless.

Every time I come back on here I see the same stuff from you. It seems you're on here on this topic, from first thing in the morning to last thing at night 24/7 I assume business in the pub is slack.

Most of your views are the polar opposite to mine but that's what a forum is all about so no problem there. I do get the clear impression though, unlike most of the other remainers, that you really do want Brexit to go badly for the UK. I find that particularly nauseating.

I do agree with you that the nation is split however. My own take is that the anti--EU feeling expressed in the referendum is if anything stronger now than it was two years ago but there's no denying there's still a huge split.

So, given where we are, what would you like to happen? Do you want the result reversed? a second referendum? a vote on the deal?

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and criticise; I'm genuinely interested in what your overall best case outcome would be.

 

[martcov]

Every time I come back on here I see the same stuff from you. It seems you're on here on this topic, from first thing in the morning to last thing at night 24/7 I assume business in the pub is slack.

Most of your views are the polar opposite to mine but that's what a forum is all about so no problem there. I do get the clear impression though, unlike most of the other remainers, that you really do want Brexit to go badly for the UK. I find that particularly nauseating.

I do agree with you that the nation is split however. My own take is that the anti--EU feeling expressed in the referendum is if anything stronger now than it was two years ago but there's no denying there's still a huge split.

So, given where we are, what would you like to happen? Do you want the result reversed? a second referendum? a vote on the deal?

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and criticise; I'm genuinely interested in what your overall best case outcome would be.

Yes, business in the pub is slack because of the unusually hot summer and lack of a Biergarten.

But, I am not bound by the pub. I am traveling and working at different times in different cities with my mobile Biergarten.

Best case scenario: Brexit is seen as a bad idea and binned.

Probably won’t happen- unfortunately.

Next best case is BINO. We stay in the CU and SM and life goes on with us politically and internationally weakened.

Worst case scenario is that we crash out without a deal and then we take an economic hit for an unknown length of time. Bitter infighting for years as people blame each other. Northern Ireland kicks off again and neither side there will ever trust us again.

Who are the winners in 2 and 3?

 

[martcov]

Different day...same old bollocks!


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Different day and you still can’t make a valid point.

 

[martcov]

So your last two posts have actually been questions in answer to questions!


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Yes, I have adapted Grendel’s style.

 

[martcov]

But you are in favour of protectionism. That is one of your main readons for remaining isn't it? Protected free-trade with the EU?

I don't know how you manage to type given the bloody knots you tie yourself up in!

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Protectionism in the form of agreed and reciprocal trading. Not just doing a Trump. The EU has deals or arrangements witha large part of the world. The rest of the world has it’s own borders and protectionism. You have to negotiate to get as much free trade as possible. But there are quality, safety and ethical standards which you call protectionist, which we should always impose.

 

[martcov]

Well I guess anyone can glibly say that many that wanted to leave didn't bother to vote because the pollsters had pissed on their chips in the lead up. They thought it was pointless.

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Exactly, but you cannot say that the non voters were passionately behind Brexit and claim the nation is behind Brexit.

 

[martcov]

But you are in favour of protectionism. That is one of your main readons for remaining isn't it? Protected free-trade with the EU?

I don't know how you manage to type given the bloody knots you tie yourself up in!

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No one is going to open up the farmers to absolutely free trade competition with the whole world. If they are undercut and go out of business then we are beholden to other countries for our food. One thing if we lost manufacturing, another if we lost our food production. Even if it makes economic sense, it doesn’t make strategic sense.

 

[martcov]

Self interest obviously. The same as you & many others. You think everyone that voted leave did so for spite or race or some other foibles to do with being 'led up the garden path'. MORE denial - most probably had a specific self interest &/or wisdom that you & I didn't, & they voted accordingly.
Now you must be familiar with that notion. EU country like Britain has a negative issue with immigration. Nothing happens other than hot air, vague agreements & inaction. Germany has a negative issue with immigration...& then the issue becomes a point of major discussion & need for policy enforcement or change for the EU as a whole. You know...self interest?!
But you will not accept that because you are in denial that Germany, abetted mostly by France, force the EU agenda.

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I think that 17,4 million people had a host of different reasons. Many for the reasons you quoted. Problem is, that if several hundred thousand had voted differently we would have had maybe a slight majority the other way. Did the lies and the leading up the garden path bring a different result? We will never know, but the referendum was flawed by the goings on behind the scenes. I hope we learn more of what went on.

The U.K. was a major player in the EU. That’s how it got it’s exceptions to e.g. the Euro. Now you complain that Germany and France are steering the ship. Whose fault is that? We are jumping ship and giving up our influence in Europe.

 

[Grendel]

I think that 17,4 million people had a host of different reasons. Many for the reasons you quoted. Problem is, that if several hundred thousand had voted differently we would have had maybe a slight majority the other way. Did the lies and the leading up the garden path bring a different result? We will never know, but the referendum was flawed by the goings on behind the scenes. I hope we learn more of what went on.

The U.K. was a major player in the EU. That’s how it got it’s exceptions to e.g. the Euro. Now you complain that Germany and France are steering the ship. Whose fault is that? We are jumping ship and giving up our influence in Europe.

I do keep asking this.

There were major lies in the remain campaign including a fact from the government that 3 million would be unemployed immediately after the result and an emergency austerity budget would be implemented the minute a leave result was announced.

Do you think this had any influence on voting intentions?

 

[Astute]

Not reading this bullshit.

We are through to the quarter finals of the world cup :smug:

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Different day and you still can’t make a valid point.

That is YOUR problem. Hence I continue to say it!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Protectionism in the form of agreed and reciprocal trading. Not just doing a Trump. The EU has deals or arrangements witha large part of the world. The rest of the world has it’s own borders and protectionism. You have to negotiate to get as much free trade as possible. But there are quality, safety and ethical standards which you call protectionist, which we should always impose.

But the EU simply sets rules to outlaw other imports. That is discriminatory & protectionist. Reciprocal enters into that in NO WAY whatsoever. It means the exporters lose trade, become poorer & citizens feel their only chance is to become a migrant to the EU/USA or similar

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[SkyblueBazza]

Exactly, but you cannot say that the non voters were passionately behind Brexit and claim the nation is behind Brexit.

But you are permitting yourself to say that they were passionately behinf remaining & that the nation should stay in the EU. Polar was a word used to describe you earlier by Sir Ernie. Personally I struggle to find words which might be classed as inoffensive to describe you!

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[Grendel]

Protectionism in the form of agreed and reciprocal trading. Not just doing a Trump. The EU has deals or arrangements witha large part of the world. The rest of the world has it’s own borders and protectionism. You have to negotiate to get as much free trade as possible. But there are quality, safety and ethical standards which you call protectionist, which we should always impose.

Please don’t say you are denying the Eu has protectionist strategies that are purely focused on price

If you are you really are beyond mental

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No one is going to open up the farmers to absolutely free trade competition with the whole world. If they are undercut and go out of business then we are beholden to other countries for our food. One thing if we lost manufacturing, another if we lost our food production. Even if it makes economic sense, it doesn’t make strategic sense.

What planet do you live on? We ARE beholden to other countries for our food (largely thanks to reliance on EU colleagues).

If shit hit fan, the only people sustainable for any protracted period would be the gentry, the armed services & the frigging farmers!!!

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[SkyblueBazza]

I think that 17,4 million people had a host of different reasons. Many for the reasons you quoted. Problem is, that if several hundred thousand had voted differently we would have had maybe a slight majority the other way. Did the lies and the leading up the garden path bring a different result? We will never know, but the referendum was flawed by the goings on behind the scenes. I hope we learn more of what went on.

The U.K. was a major player in the EU. That’s how it got it’s exceptions to e.g. the Euro. Now you complain that Germany and France are steering the ship. Whose fault is that? We are jumping ship and giving up our influence in Europe.

Nah - I think the opposite. Many EU countries citizens are now feeling empowered. 'If the UK can do without the EU...so can we' attitude is growing...but reticent as they are watching to see how things pan out.
EU leaders are not blind or deaf...they sense it. So intend being tough on us leaving.

It will end in tears all round for sure - but it will probably & sadly now end imo. The divisions are growing too rapidly for the EU to keep pace with. Which is ironic because had the EU stopped to catch breath more often...it could've worked very well indeed.

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[martcov]

Nah - I think the opposite. Many EU countries citizens are now feeling empowered. 'If the UK can do without the EU...so can we' attitude is growing...but reticent as they are watching to see how things pan out.
EU leaders are not blind or deaf...they sense it. So intend being tough on us leaving.

It will end in tears all round for sure - but it will probably & sadly now end imo. The divisions are growing too rapidly for the EU to keep pace with. Which is ironic because had the EU stopped to catch breath more often...it could've worked very well indeed.

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That’s the opposite of what polls say and what people say where I travel here. They cannot understand us and certainly don’t want to end up in our position.

 

[martcov]

What planet do you live on? We ARE beholden to other countries for our food (largely thanks to reliance on EU colleagues).

If shit hit fan, the only people sustainable for any protracted period would be the gentry, the armed services & the frigging farmers!!!

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Yes so know we don’t cover our needs, but we won’t let what we have be wiped out.

 

[martcov]

Please don’t say you are denying the Eu has protectionist strategies that are purely focused on price

If you are you really are beyond mental

I am not denying anything, but not everything is purely about price. Quality, ethics and having something to negotiate with come into as well.

 

[martcov]

But you are permitting yourself to say that they were passionately behinf remaining & that the nation should stay in the EU. Polar was a word used to describe you earlier by Sir Ernie. Personally I struggle to find words which might be classed as inoffensive to describe you!

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Of course I am not saying that. It’s obvious that people that didn’t vote weren’t passionate enough either way. Stop making things up!

 

[martcov]

But the EU simply sets rules to outlaw other imports. That is discriminatory & protectionist. Reciprocal enters into that in NO WAY whatsoever. It means the exporters lose trade, become poorer & citizens feel their only chance is to become a migrant to the EU/USA or similar

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No it doesn’t simply make rules up. What do you think they do? „What shall we do today? Mmm .. I know we’ll make some rules up.“

 

[martcov]

That is YOUR problem. Hence I continue to say it!

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Proves my point doesn’t it? You’re not exactly original.

 

[martcov]

I do keep asking this.

There were major lies in the remain campaign including a fact from the government that 3 million would be unemployed immediately after the result and an emergency austerity budget would be implemented the minute a leave result was announced.

Do you think this had any influence on voting intentions?

They weren’t lies. They were predictions. Saying or implying that there would be 350 m a week for the NHS was a deliberate lie.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

That’s the opposite of what polls say and what people say where I travel here. They cannot understand us and certainly don’t want to end up in our position.

Gasp! Polls wrong??? Well, I have never heard the like!

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[dancers lance]

They weren’t lies. They were predictions. Saying or implying that there would be 350 m a week for the NHS was a deliberate lie.

Wasn't it Boris who said that though?