The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (42 Viewers)

[Astute]

Turkey has been “joining” the EU for over 30 years now. They don’t meet the criteria and never will. The process was started to garner favour with Turkish voters by Turkish politicians. Turkey joining the EU is little more than a myth.

So Turkey are not members of the EU. Agreed.

So why did the EU lend them money so they could take well paid manufacturing jobs away from the UK?

 

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[Astute]

No doubt you will join me in criticising Farage for trying to use a 80m loan as an anti EU weapon whilst neglecting the 2.1 Billion inward loans in 2017? You said Ford have been downscaling in the UK for years anyway.

Looking forward to it.

Look at my last post and answer it honestly for once.

 

[Astute]

1. Your post Sunday 3:10 pm.

2. you have changed your stance and now admit you were wrong ( in your way of doing things ).

3. the Irish situation is our problem. We are signatories to a peace agreement registered with the UN. No point in signing deals until we know that the border is there or not there. So you are wrong in what you claim.

4. No. Brexit is an act of self harm.

Come on then. How have I admitted that I am wrong?

I have said all along that they would play hard ball to try and make us stay in. I still think there will be a deal to benefit both sides. But they are still taking the piss. Just like they always do.

 

[skybluetony176]

So Turkey are not members of the EU. Agreed.

So why did the EU lend them money so they could take well paid manufacturing jobs away from the UK?

The EU didn’t lend them money the EIB did. Can’t take you seriously when I’ve already pointed that out to you half a dozen times and you still continue saying that the EU lent them the money.

Why did the EIB lend them money taking jobs out the EU? Don’t know, I’ve already said it was a bad move, I’m not disagreeing with you on the principle of what the EIB did even if you’re struggling with the mechanics of how it happened and who did it.

You could try asking the government/treasury. They are shareholders in the EIB afterall so do have a say in where the money goes and why. Did the British government at the time try to stop this happening?

 

[Astute]

The EU didn’t lend them money the EIB did. Can’t take you seriously when I’ve already pointed that out to you half a dozen times and you still continue saying that the EU lent them the money.

Why did the EIB lend them money taking jobs out the EU? Don’t know, I’ve already said it was a bad move, I’m not disagreeing with you on the principle of what the EIB did even if you’re struggling with the mechanics of how it happened and who did it.

You could try asking the government/treasury. They are shareholders in the EIB afterall so do have a say in where the money goes and why. Did the British government at the time try to stop this happening?

It would help if you knew what you were talking about.

EIB - At a glance

The first line asks the question why it was allowed? Was it in our interests?

The EIB is the European Union's bank. We are the only bank owned by and representing the interests of the European Union Member States.

 

[skybluetony176]

It would help if you knew what you were talking about.

EIB - At a glance

The first line asks the question why it was allowed? Was it in our interests?

The EIB is the European Union's bank. We are the only bank owned by and representing the interests of the European Union Member States.

I do know what I’m talking about. That’s why the links you’ve provided confirm I’m correct.

 

[Astute]

I do know what I’m talking about. That’s why the links you’ve provided confirm I’m correct.

:smuggrin:

So in what way are you right?

The EIB is the EU's bank.

Which part of them 6 words don't you understand?

 

[martcov]

It would help if you knew what you were talking about.

EIB - At a glance

The first line asks the question why it was allowed? Was it in our interests?

The EIB is the European Union's bank. We are the only bank owned by and representing the interests of the European Union Member States.

60 Billion in 2012. 80 Million to a project in Turkey.

„and expertise for sustainable investment projects that contribute to EU policy objectives. More than 90% of our activity is in Europe. But we also are a big investor around the world“

90% in Europe. They are now investing in e.g. the Balkans. There are aims such „as the refugee challenge“ of which e.g. a stable Turkey is a part. Turkey has taken millions of refugees and controls the route to EU countries. Just saying the EIB lent money to a project in Turkey means nothing. There was obviously some „aim“ to the advantage of the EU behind it. You haven’t quoted the report justifying the loan. There must be one, as you say it has to comply with EU interests. The interest of the EU may, in this case, be different to Ford in Southampton. But, look at the scale of investment and at incoming loans to the UK to put this loan into perspective.

 

[martcov]

It would help if you knew what you were talking about.

EIB - At a glance

The first line asks the question why it was allowed? Was it in our interests?

The EIB is the European Union's bank. We are the only bank owned by and representing the interests of the European Union Member States.

The Turkey project has had 4 billion invested in it over the last few years. Your theory is that the 80 million of the 60 billion made available to the EIB in 2012 made all the difference to Ford‘s policy in the UK. The project is a joint venture and Ford does not hold the majority of shares. You said Ford was reducing in the UK for several years anyway.

Typical example of a Faragism. With or without the 80 million, Ford would have continued reducing it‘s presence in the UK. Expect more firms to follow because of extra costs and uncertainty through Brexit.

BTW, I just checked my beer supply today. I sell draught Newcastle Brown Ale and the barrels have now got different labels. Until recently it was Edinburgh. Now it says Amsterdam. Seems like the uncertainty has been dealt with ( either that or it is now being filled in Amsterdam). Maybe coincidence.

 

[skybluetony176]

:smuggrin:

So in what way are you right?

The EIB is the EU's bank.

Which part of them 6 words don't you understand?

The EIB is not responsible for EU policy. It is not the EU. Were you even aware of the EIB before I pointed out it was an EIB loan and not EU state aid as you initially claimed? Turkey as you acknowledge isn’t even a state that is an EU member for it to be state aid. Seems to me that you’re deliberately misunderstanding the details to deliberately misrepresent what did actually happened so you can sell the EIB as the EU. Maybe that’s why you didn’t mention the EIB until I did, maybe I’m doing you a mis-service by suggesting that you hadn’t heard of them until I pointed them out. You’re just deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Which is a shame because as I said in my original reply I agree with you on the principle that the loan was not in the best interest of an EU member state, namely the U.K. but you seem to have chosen to dilute that with a pantomime of misrepresentation of the facts. Just so you can keep saying that the EU gave Turkey state aid. Which isn’t what happened.

 

[Astute]

The EIB is not responsible for EU policy. It is not the EU. Were you even aware of the EIB before I pointed out it was an EIB loan and not EU state aid as you initially claimed? Turkey as you acknowledge isn’t even a state that is an EU member for it to be state aid. Seems to me that you’re deliberately misunderstanding the details to deliberately misrepresent what did actually happened so you can sell the EIB as the EU. Maybe that’s why you didn’t mention the EIB until I did, maybe I’m doing you a mis-service by suggesting that you hadn’t heard of them until I pointed them out. You’re just deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Which is a shame because as I said in my original reply I agree with you on the principle that the loan was not in the best interest of an EU member state, namely the U.K. but you seem to have chosen to dilute that with a pantomime of misrepresentation of the facts. Just so you can keep saying that the EU gave Turkey state aid. Which isn’t what happened.

What a load of bollocks.

Can't you read and understand?

The EIB is the bank of the EU. Full stop. It is run by the EU for the benefit of EU members. That is why the UK has had to pump billions into it.

Either you don't understand or you are playing at being thick to save yourself from having to admit that you are wrong.

 

[Astute]

60 Billion in 2012. 80 Million to a project in Turkey.

„and expertise for sustainable investment projects that contribute to EU policy objectives. More than 90% of our activity is in Europe. But we also are a big investor around the world“

90% in Europe. They are now investing in e.g. the Balkans. There are aims such „as the refugee challenge“ of which e.g. a stable Turkey is a part. Turkey has taken millions of refugees and controls the route to EU countries. Just saying the EIB lent money to a project in Turkey means nothing. There was obviously some „aim“ to the advantage of the EU behind it. You haven’t quoted the report justifying the loan. There must be one, as you say it has to comply with EU interests. The interest of the EU may, in this case, be different to Ford in Southampton. But, look at the scale of investment and at incoming loans to the UK to put this loan into perspective.

Are you doing a Tony and pretending that it isn't the bank of the EU and that it shouldn't be run to the benefit of EU members?

 

[skybluetony176]

Are you doing a Tony and pretending that it isn't the bank of the EU and that it shouldn't be run to the benefit of EU members?

Surely in the interest of being the balanced poster you like to tell us you are and believe that the EIB is the EU you would be swooning over all the billions of investment (or should that be state aid?) that the EIB (or should that be EU?) has given the U.K. over the years? Surely?

Wow. Look at all this state aid from the EU The European Investment Bank in the United Kingdom: what we do

No wonder the NHS isn’t getting its £360M from brexit. The government has got to bankroll all this on their own now.

 

[Astute]

Surely in the interest of being the balanced poster you like to tell us you are and believe that the EIB is the EU you would be swooning over all the billions of investment (or should that be state aid?) that the EIB (or should that be EU?) has given the U.K. over the years? Surely?

Are you now admitting that you are wrong and wish to change the subject?

 

[skybluetony176]

What a load of bollocks.

Can't you read and understand?

The EIB is the bank of the EU. Full stop. It is run by the EU for the benefit of EU members. That is why the UK has had to pump billions into it.

Either you don't understand or you are playing at being thick to save yourself from having to admit that you are wrong.

Ha ha ha.

 

[skybluetony176]

Are you now admitting that you are wrong and wish to change the subject?

Read the link in the amended post and then explain why we should leave the EU and turn our backs on investment from the EIB? Sorry, I mean state aid from the EU. No I don’t, state aid comes in the form of grants from the EU. Completely different to what the EIB does but I’m sure you’ll continue to pretend that there’s no distinction between the EU and the EIB and how they finance things.

For a bit of balance Turkey received just €506M in loans from the EIB in 2017 in comparison to the €2.1B the U.K. received in the same period.

 

[Astute]

Read the link in the amended post and then explain why we should leave the EU and turn our backs on investment from the EIB? Sorry, I mean state aid from the EU. No I don’t, state aid comes in the form of grants from the EU. Completely different to what the EIB does but I’m sure you’ll continue to pretend that there’s no distinction between the EU and the EIB and how they finance things.

EU
Investment
Bank

As in EIB

Nothing to do with the EU?

EU investment bank 'will owe Britain money for 35 years after Brexit'

 

[skybluetony176]

EU
Investment
Bank

As in EIB

Nothing to do with the EU?

EU investment bank 'will owe Britain money for 35 years after Brexit'

I never said it wasn’t anything to do with the EU you muppet in fact I made the point at the start of this “conversation” that it’s share holders are EU member states.

I note that you didn’t answer the question. Too busy ignoring what I’ve already said and then providing links that confirms what I’ve already said. You’re arguing with yourself on this one and I don’t even think you realise you’re doing it.

And it’s correct title is the European Investment Bank not the EU Investment Bank. Jesus you’ll buy any span headline at face value even when it tells you that in a link that you yourself previously provided otherwise. And you wonder why people accuse you of not reading anything. European Investment Bank (EIB) Here’s the link to the EIB home page. You can read it for yourself unless you would rather believe a headline.

 

[Astute]

I never said it wasn’t anything to do with the EU you muppet in fact I made the point at the start of this “conversation” that it’s share holders are EU member states.

I note that you didn’t answer the question. Too busy ignoring what I’ve already said and then providing links that confirms what I’ve already said. You’re arguing with yourself on this one and I don’t even think you realise you’re doing it.

Muppet?

What an about turn. You said the EIB wasn't anything to do with the EU. Now are you saying that it is?

Maybe you can't deny the links for once.

Did you notice this line in the last link?

The EIB does currently lend outside the EU, but generally does so in line with the EU's foreign policy objectives: mostly pouring cash into pre-accession countries that could one day join the EU, or providing support for the EU's poorer southern and eastern neighbours.

So how did this mean a big loan to Turkey to take away jobs from the UK? So in other words we paid out to lose jobs.

Oh the EU is a wonderful thing.

 

[Astute]

Turkey has been “joining” the EU for over 30 years now. They don’t meet the criteria and never will. The process was started to garner favour with Turkish voters by Turkish politicians. Turkey joining the EU is little more than a myth.

So how did the EU lend money to Turkey if there is no chance of them joining the EU?

Or is it another way if breaking their own rules?

Or is it shock horror you are wrong again?

 

[Astute]

The EU didn’t lend them money the EIB did. Can’t take you seriously when I’ve already pointed that out to you half a dozen times and you still continue saying that the EU lent them the money.

Why did the EIB lend them money taking jobs out the EU? Don’t know, I’ve already said it was a bad move, I’m not disagreeing with you on the principle of what the EIB did even if you’re struggling with the mechanics of how it happened and who did it.

You could try asking the government/treasury. They are shareholders in the EIB afterall so do have a say in where the money goes and why. Did the British government at the time try to stop this happening?

So is the EIB the EU's bank or is it a different entity like you make out here?

If it is the bank of the EU then the loan is made by the EU. If it isn't the bank of the EU then you are correct.

 

[Grendel]

Surely in the interest of being the balanced poster you like to tell us you are and believe that the EIB is the EU you would be swooning over all the billions of investment (or should that be state aid?) that the EIB (or should that be EU?) has given the U.K. over the years? Surely?

Wow. Look at all this state aid from the EU The European Investment Bank in the United Kingdom: what we do

No wonder the NHS isn’t getting its £360M from brexit. The government has got to bankroll all this on their own now.

We pay significantly more into the bank then we receive in investment support so we pay for all these wonderful projects.

How’s the welsh branch of the EU commission doing these days Tony?

 

[Grendel]

So is the EIB the EU's bank or is it a different entity like you make out here?

If it is the bank of the EU then the loan is made by the EU. If it isn't the bank of the EU then you are correct.

Of course it’s the EU bank and it’s interest rate policy is determined by making sure it can offer loans to Wonga type customers at absurdly low interest rates

 

[skybluetony176]

You’re trying to pretend that it was state aid, it wasn’t. It was a loan from the EIB that the U.K. is a shareholder in. It will be paid back with interest. Which the U.K. will be a recipient of even after brexit as we have long term commitments to the EIB. Little comfort to the former workers at Ford Southampton but that’s what happened. Ford Turkey wasn’t handed a load of cash from the EU as aid.

They, the EIB loaned them money. They have to pay it back, with interest. “They” haven’t given them anything. How can the Turks write it off? They are neither EU members and therefore not a shareholder in the EIB, they have no authority to write it off.

The EIB is not responsible for EU policy. It is not the EU. Were you even aware of the EIB before I pointed out it was an EIB loan and not EU state aid as you initially claimed? Turkey as you acknowledge isn’t even a state that is an EU member for it to be state aid. Seems to me that you’re deliberately misunderstanding the details to deliberately misrepresent what did actually happened so you can sell the EIB as the EU. Maybe that’s why you didn’t mention the EIB until I did, maybe I’m doing you a mis-service by suggesting that you hadn’t heard of them until I pointed them out. You’re just deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Which is a shame because as I said in my original reply I agree with you on the principle that the loan was not in the best interest of an EU member state, namely the U.K. but you seem to have chosen to dilute that with a pantomime of misrepresentation of the facts. Just so you can keep saying that the EU gave Turkey state aid. Which isn’t what happened.

I never said it wasn’t anything to do with the EU you muppet in fact I made the point at the start of this “conversation” that it’s share holders are EU member states.

I note that you didn’t answer the question. Too busy ignoring what I’ve already said and then providing links that confirms what I’ve already said. You’re arguing with yourself on this one and I don’t even think you realise you’re doing it.

And it’s correct title is the European Investment Bank not the EU Investment Bank. Jesus you’ll buy any span headline at face value even when it tells you that in a link that you yourself previously provided otherwise. And you wonder why people accuse you of not reading anything. European Investment Bank (EIB) Here’s the link to the EIB home page. You can read it for yourself unless you would rather believe a headline.

Muppet?

What an about turn. You said the EIB wasn't anything to do with the EU. Now are you saying that it is?

Maybe you can't deny the links for once.

Did you notice this line in the last link?

The EIB does currently lend outside the EU, but generally does so in line with the EU's foreign policy objectives: mostly pouring cash into pre-accession countries that could one day join the EU, or providing support for the EU's poorer southern and eastern neighbours.

So how did this mean a big loan to Turkey to take away jobs from the UK? So in other words we paid out to lose jobs.

Oh the EU is a wonderful thing.

The multiple times I’ve told you that the EIB is something to do with the EU over two days. Don’t complain about being called a muppet when you’re doing a fantastic job of earning that title.

 

[Astute]

We pay significantly more into the bank then we receive in investment support so we pay for all these wonderful projects.

How’s the welsh branch of the EU commission doing these days Tony?

I have been waiting for Tony to mention where the money is spent that is lent here.

Private water companies so they can take out their massive profits to their shareholders.

Electric generating windmills that cause much more pollution than they will ever save. But it is the baby of the EU.

 

[Astute]

The multiple times I’ve told you that the EIB is something to do with the EU over two days. Don’t complain about being called a muppet when you’re doing a fantastic job of earning that title.

Something to do with it is not as close to the truth as you make out.

If you was right or it could be twisted for you to be right Mart would be defending you by now.

The EIB is the bank of the EU. The loans given out by the EIB are actually given out by the EU. It is their bank. And we fund it. Nobody has handed more money over to the EIB than the UK has.

 

[skybluetony176]

We pay significantly more into the bank then we receive in investment support so we pay for all these wonderful projects.

How’s the welsh branch of the EU commission doing these days Tony?

We also receive back the money we have invested in the EIB. In fact we’ll still be receiving it back for over 3 decades after brexit. The money borrowed from the EIB in the U.K. is invested in infrastructure, enterprise and the environment at as you say at absurdly low interest rates benefiting the U.K. immensely. What we won’t have for the next 3 + decades is the access to EIB money we have enjoyed as EU members. We’ve chosen to relegate ourselves to a Turkey.

Last year projects, industry and business borrowed €2.1B while enjoying (again your words) absurdly low interest rates. Our total stake in the EIB stands currently at 16% which is apparently €3.1B which we’ll get back over the next 3+ decades so actually what we put in isn’t that different from what we take out. That’s before you even consider that we get our investment back. Links to all this has already been put on this thread.

As astute dodged the question maybe you could answer how this service is going to be replaced post brexit. It was clearly a benefit of being an EU member. Still maybe we’ll be able to scrape €500M of loans from the EIB like other non members such as Turkey so it’s only the balance of the €2.1B that the government needs to find to replace investment through EIB loans.

 

[skybluetony176]

Nobody has handed more money over to the EIB than the UK has.

Except Germany, France and Italy.

 

[skybluetony176]

I have been waiting for Tony to mention where the money is spent that is lent here.

Private water companies so they can take out their massive profits to their shareholders.

Electric generating windmills that cause much more pollution than they will ever save. But it is the baby of the EU.

I’ve already given you a link to what it’s spent on. If you’re waiting it’s because you’ve failed to read what I’ve posted. Again. You’re problem. Again.

 

[Astute]

Except Germany, France and Italy.

Show me where they have handed more money over than us.

 

[Astute]

We also receive back the money we have invested in the EIB. In fact we’ll still be receiving it back for over 3 decades after brexit. The money borrowed from the EIB in the U.K. is invested in infrastructure, enterprise and the environment at as you say at absurdly low interest rates benefiting the U.K. immensely. What we won’t have for the next 3 + decades is the access to EIB money we have enjoyed as EU members. We’ve chosen to relegate ourselves to a Turkey.

Last year projects, industry and business borrowed €2.1B while enjoying (again your words) absurdly low interest rates. Our total stake in the EIB stands currently at 16% which is apparently €3.1B which we’ll get back over the next 3+ decades so actually what we put in isn’t that different from what we take out. That’s before you even consider that we get our investment back. Links to all this has already been put on this thread.

As astute dodged the question maybe you could answer how this service is going to be replaced post brexit. It was clearly a benefit of being an EU member. Still maybe we’ll be able to scrape €500M of loans from the EIB like other non members such as Turkey so it’s only the balance of the €2.1B that the government needs to find to replace investment through EIB loans.

So how much will these billions be worth when we get them back? Because we won't get any interest.

 

[Astute]

I’ve already given you a link to what it’s spent on. If you’re waiting it’s because you’ve failed to read what I’ve posted. Again. You’re problem. Again.

Because you try to twist the truth.

You are still saying that the EU doesn't loan money out from their own bank. The bank that we help to finance.

How about admitting that you are wrong. Then we can move to the next EU ripoff, lie or rule breaking.

 

[skybluetony176]

So how much will these billions be worth when we get them back? Because we won't get any interest.

You posted more than one link explaining exactly the answer to that. Why don’t you try reading them? For a change. Nice to see it’s not just my links that you don’t read. No wonder you talk bollocks you don’t even read your own.

 

[skybluetony176]

Because you try to twist the truth.

You are still saying that the EU doesn't loan money out from their own bank. The bank that we help to finance.

How about admitting that you are wrong. Then we can move to the next EU ripoff, lie or rule breaking.

I’ve just provided you multiple quotes in one post dismissing your absurd claims in this post. Clearly you didn’t read any of it because not five minutes later you’re spouting the same bollocks again.

 

[Grendel]

We also receive back the money we have invested in the EIB. In fact we’ll still be receiving it back for over 3 decades after brexit. The money borrowed from the EIB in the U.K. is invested in infrastructure, enterprise and the environment at as you say at absurdly low interest rates benefiting the U.K. immensely. What we won’t have for the next 3 + decades is the access to EIB money we have enjoyed as EU members. We’ve chosen to relegate ourselves to a Turkey.

Last year projects, industry and business borrowed €2.1B while enjoying (again your words) absurdly low interest rates. Our total stake in the EIB stands currently at 16% which is apparently €3.1B which we’ll get back over the next 3+ decades so actually what we put in isn’t that different from what we take out. That’s before you even consider that we get our investment back. Links to all this has already been put on this thread.

As astute dodged the question maybe you could answer how this service is going to be replaced post brexit. It was clearly a benefit of being an EU member. Still maybe we’ll be able to scrape €500M of loans from the EIB like other non members such as Turkey so it’s only the balance of the €2.1B that the government needs to find to replace investment through EIB loans.

Tony all you are doing is quoting an article from the Independent and claiming it’s your own words.

Oddly you as that article fails to mention is it’s paying back agreed commitments from the bank before we leave as we are massively net contributors. So it’s irrelevant.

The interest rate comment was not actually referring to those loans but the whole Eu strategy which props up the euro through tying the banks lending rate to Germany so it can support countries that otherwise would be bust.

Anyway Tony can you link the address of the welsh branch if the Eu commission please - I need a loan