The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (127 Viewers)

[Astute]

You’re more than welcome to join in. Just don’t make out I’ve said things I haven’t, don’t ignore the things I have said in the manor you did yesterday by telling me I haven’t said something and if you’re going to join in at least try and make the effort to keep up with how the conversation is/has developed.

Bollocks. Your clues were not good enough. Then you accuse me of butting in.

 

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[martcov]

We build most of what we used to. But now with foreign owners in many of them. Just like JLR have foreign owners.

Actually the City is our breadwinner..

But sentiment seems to changing about it’s position in the world:

New York replaces London as top financial centre due to Brexit, survey says

 

[Astute]

Actually the City is our breadwinner..

But sentiment seems to changing about it’s position in the world:

New York replaces London as top financial centre due to Brexit, survey says

Survey says :smuggrin:

 

[skybluetony176]

We build most of what we used to. But now with foreign owners in many of them. Just like JLR have foreign owners.

Triumph? Alvis? Armstrong Siddley? Singer? Humber? Just to name a few from Coventry. That’s before you even even get into all the companies that used to be in Coventry supporting these companies pressing panels, making wheels etc. How much is left of companies like Courtaulds and GPT? We still make the things we used to but no where near the volume of either companies or quantity. It’s ignorant and delusional to suggest otherwise.

 

[martcov]

Survey says :smuggrin:

Yes, but when the pound recovers slightly links get posted on here to the Mail or Express: „Pound soars in value“ headlines, or „Brexit Boom“ ( another Express classic).

 

[Astute]

Triumph? Alvis? Armstrong Siddley? Singer? Humber? Just to name a few from Coventry. That’s before you even even get into all the companies that used to be in Coventry supporting these companies pressing panels, making wheels etc. How much is left of companies like Courtaulds and GPT? We still make the things we used to but no where near the volume of either companies or quantity. It’s ignorant and delusional to suggest otherwise.

I forgot that we lost Triumph, Alvis and the others because of Brexit.

 

[Astute]

Yes, but when the pound recovers slightly links get posted on here to the Mail or Express: „Pound soars in value“ headlines, or „Brexit Boom“ ( another Express classic).

I haven't linked to those for ages. Whereas you have.

 

[Astute]

Triumph? Alvis? Armstrong Siddley? Singer? Humber? Just to name a few from Coventry. That’s before you even even get into all the companies that used to be in Coventry supporting these companies pressing panels, making wheels etc. How much is left of companies like Courtaulds and GPT? We still make the things we used to but no where near the volume of either companies or quantity. It’s ignorant and delusional to suggest otherwise.

Good morning clever one.

Couldn't sleep. So I thought I would have a look at what you are saying in detail.

UK Manufacturing Statistics

So we are the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world. And if current rates continue we will be the 5th biggest in the next 5 years or so. We sell all around the world even though EU trade rules mean we are not allowed to make our own trade deals. But of course you don't want to get your head around these numbers.

One big difference these days is a large amount of work has been automated. We have robots doing many tasks. So jobs are down but production is up. It is seen as progress.

I suppose you would prefer British manufacturing to go back to the good old days of striking for no reason. The truth is it cost the UK a lot of jobs. It brought our country to its knees. I may have only been a kid at the time but I remember it well.

So now we build more than we used to. But less workers are needed. This doesn't mean that the good old days of manufacturing are gone. It had to become more efficient to survive and prosper.

 

[dutchman]

Juncker plans big EU border guards boost

The grand old Duke of Luxembourg,
He had ten thousand men,
He marched them to the borders of the EU,
Then he marched them back again!

And when they were out they were out
And when they were in they were in
And when they were only half-way out
They were neither out nor in!

 

[martcov]

Good morning clever one.

Couldn't sleep. So I thought I would have a look at what you are saying in detail.

UK Manufacturing Statistics

So we are the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world. And if current rates continue we will be the 5th biggest in the next 5 years or so. We sell all around the world even though EU trade rules mean we are not allowed to make our own trade deals. But of course you don't want to get your head around these numbers.

One big difference these days is a large amount of work has been automated. We have robots doing many tasks. So jobs are down but production is up. It is seen as progress.

I suppose you would prefer British manufacturing to go back to the good old days of striking for no reason. The truth is it cost the UK a lot of jobs. It brought our country to its knees. I may have only been a kid at the time but I remember it well.

So now we build more than we used to. But less workers are needed. This doesn't mean that the good old days of manufacturing are gone. It had to become more efficient to survive and prosper.

We sell all around the world.

Whilst being in the EU.

As do other EU countries such as Germany. Germany sells more. Why?

 

[martcov]

Juncker plans big EU border guards boost

The grand old Duke of Luxembourg,
He had ten thousand men,
He marched them to the borders of the EU,
Then he marched them back again!

And when they were out they were out
And when they were in they were in
And when they were only half-way out
They were neither out nor in!

Yes very funny. But although it fits the poem, he isn’t the real Duke ;-). And, that is the way we should be going - strengthening the exterior borders, but some will still muddle things up and talk about open borders, not discerning between exterior and Schengen borders.

 

[Astute]

We sell all around the world.

Whilst being in the EU.

As do other EU countries such as Germany. Germany sells more. Why?

When you have a devalued currency your products become cheaper than they should be. Germany is much stronger than the average in the EU. They are the strongest. So they have a currency that is much weaker than it should be. So they are at a massive advantage.

But you know this.

Italy's Northern League chief attacks euro, says preparing exit

https://www.quora.com/Is-Germany-too-big-for-the-EU-or-is-the-rest-of-the-EU-is-too-weak

And as said by Macron

Macron: Germany is competitive thanks to eurozone weaknesses

 

[skybluetony176]

I forgot that we lost Triumph, Alvis and the others because of Brexit.

Now you’re just being stupid. How is brexit going to bring this lost manufacturing back?

 

[Astute]

Now you’re just being stupid. How is brexit going to bring this lost manufacturing back?

Why mention it when you are after blaming Brexit for everything wrong?

So how about the link I provided for you that showed you being wrong about British manufacturing?

Yes things have changed. The biggest problem that we had years ago was our unions were too strong. And our quality was not good. Now our unions are weak but our quality is wanted all over the world. The problem is we have sold so many of our manufacturing companies to foreign investors. But at least other foreign investors have invested here.

 

[skybluetony176]

Good morning clever one.

Couldn't sleep. So I thought I would have a look at what you are saying in detail.

UK Manufacturing Statistics

So we are the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world. And if current rates continue we will be the 5th biggest in the next 5 years or so. We sell all around the world even though EU trade rules mean we are not allowed to make our own trade deals. But of course you don't want to get your head around these numbers.

One big difference these days is a large amount of work has been automated. We have robots doing many tasks. So jobs are down but production is up. It is seen as progress.

I suppose you would prefer British manufacturing to go back to the good old days of striking for no reason. The truth is it cost the UK a lot of jobs. It brought our country to its knees. I may have only been a kid at the time but I remember it well.

So now we build more than we used to. But less workers are needed. This doesn't mean that the good old days of manufacturing are gone. It had to become more efficient to survive and prosper.

Talk about missing the point and putting words into people’s mouths.

First of the report and predictions are full of ifs and buts. How does manufacturing compare as GDP to the days when we were a manufacturing powerhouse? Were we net importers or exporters back then? We’re never going to catch China, India, Japan, USA and Germany in terms of volume. For that reason alone we’ll always be net importers.

Automation has happened the world over. It’s not exclusive to the U.K. It’s the biggest cause of job losses in the USA for example regardless of Trump pretending otherwise.

God knows what that nonsense about striking is about. You’re on a different planet with that one.

Not sure where you keep getting we build more than we used to. Is that in term of volume? GDP? Number of manufacturing companies? What period are you measuring that over? Days? Months? Years? Certainly not decades.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Talk about missing the point and putting words into people’s mouths.

First of the report and predictions are full of ifs and buts. How does manufacturing compare as GDP to the days when we were a manufacturing powerhouse? Were we net importers or exporters back then? We’re never going to catch China, India, Japan, USA and Germany in terms of volume. For that reason alone we’ll always be net importers.

Automation has happened the world over. It’s not exclusive to the U.K. It’s the biggest cause of job losses in the USA for example regardless of Trump pretending otherwise.

God knows what that nonsense about striking is about. You’re on a different planet with that one.

Not sure where you keep getting we build more than we used to. Is that in term of volume? GDP? Number of manufacturing companies? What period are you measuring that over? Days? Months? Years? Certainly not decades.

You must like this report then? Because virtually all you moaning-minnie arguments against coninuing with Brexit are based on ifs & buts.
Meanwhile, just as some of us were saying 12+ months ago...there will be a deal. Let us wait & see what it looks like upon completion.

All media scaremongering & business leader rhetoric is full of self-interest & opinion based upon the same/similar ifs & buts.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[martcov]

You must like this report then? Because virtually all you moaning-minnie arguments against coninuing with Brexit are based on ifs & buts.
Meanwhile, just as some of us were saying 12+ months ago...there will be a deal. Let us wait & see what it looks like upon completion.

All media scaremongering & business leader rhetoric is full of self-interest & opinion based upon the same/similar ifs & buts.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Yes. Close your eyes. Put your foot firmly on the accelerator and drive. What can possibly go wrong?

 

[martcov]

When you have a devalued currency your products become cheaper than they should be. Germany is much stronger than the average in the EU. They are the strongest. So they have a currency that is much weaker than it should be. So they are at a massive advantage.

But you know this.

Italy's Northern League chief attacks euro, says preparing exit

https://www.quora.com/Is-Germany-too-big-for-the-EU-or-is-the-rest-of-the-EU-is-too-weak

And as said by Macron

Macron: Germany is competitive thanks to eurozone weaknesses

We have a devalued currency now. So we could stay in the EU with our devalued currency like Germany and outsell them. We don’t have to leave the EU to devalue our currency. Our parliament is sovereign and we have an „out“ as regards the Euro. Could have done it years ago.

 

[martcov]

Why mention it when you are after blaming Brexit for everything wrong?

So how about the link I provided for you that showed you being wrong about British manufacturing?

Yes things have changed. The biggest problem that we had years ago was our unions were too strong. And our quality was not good. Now our unions are weak but our quality is wanted all over the world. The problem is we have sold so many of our manufacturing companies to foreign investors. But at least other foreign investors have invested here.

What % of people work in the auto industry in Coventry today compared with the 70s? How many car manufacturers do we have ( including foreign owned )?

 

[skybluetony176]

Why mention it when you are after blaming Brexit for everything wrong?

So how about the link I provided for you that showed you being wrong about British manufacturing?

Yes things have changed. The biggest problem that we had years ago was our unions were too strong. And our quality was not good. Now our unions are weak but our quality is wanted all over the world. The problem is we have sold so many of our manufacturing companies to foreign investors. But at least other foreign investors have invested here.

What did I blame on brexit exactly?

I’m not wrong about British manufacturing. The nations we’re competing with in that list are the best of everyone else. We’ll always be also runs. Brexit isn’t going to change that one iota.

You completely misunderstand the bigger picture. We simply don’t have the portfolio of companies we used to so can’t compete in all areas. For example let’s say thanks to brexit we strike a free trade deal with Japan. All those lovely Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, Suzuki and Mazda cars now coming to the U.K. duty free. Now, what can we send the other way? Er er, not Austin, Morris, Triumph, Humber, Singer, Hillman because they don’t exist. We’ve got JLR but here’s a problem, they have Lexus, Toyota also makes world respected 4 x 4’s as does Mitsubishi. When we joined the common market it was seen as a big opportunity for the British motor industry, problem was the EU made cars too and they did it better than us. U.K. car sales in Europe hardly grew at all and European car sales rocketed in the U.K. If you go to somewhere like Dubai do you think you see more JLR 4 x 4 product or Japanese? We already know that British loyalties don’t lie with British manufacturing from our experiences joining the common market (funnily enough this remainer is loyal to British products until very recently, always bought British or British built until about 4 months ago, my most vocal brexit supporting friend on the other hand has only ever bought Mercedes. He has a company car that’s renewed every three years and has done for the best part of 25 years, everyone a new Mercedes).

How is brexit going to revigour our manufacturing industry so we are once again a powerhouse not an also ran?

 

[Astute]

Talk about missing the point and putting words into people’s mouths.

First of the report and predictions are full of ifs and buts. How does manufacturing compare as GDP to the days when we were a manufacturing powerhouse? Were we net importers or exporters back then? We’re never going to catch China, India, Japan, USA and Germany in terms of volume. For that reason alone we’ll always be net importers.

Automation has happened the world over. It’s not exclusive to the U.K. It’s the biggest cause of job losses in the USA for example regardless of Trump pretending otherwise.

God knows what that nonsense about striking is about. You’re on a different planet with that one.

Not sure where you keep getting we build more than we used to. Is that in term of volume? GDP? Number of manufacturing companies? What period are you measuring that over? Days? Months? Years? Certainly not decades.

Ah. So cover the truth and bend the rest of it.

So you don't understand what happened because of the constant strikes?

Before Thatcher Came To Power, The UK Was Literally Covered In Gigantic Piles Of Garbage

BBC NEWS | Magazine | Your 1970s: Strikes and blackouts

Why doesn't Britain make things any more?

So yes we moved away from manufacturing as less people were needed to manufacture the same amount. The car industry went down because of strikes and poor quality.

 

[Astute]

What % of people work in the auto industry in Coventry today compared with the 70s? How many car manufacturers do we have ( including foreign owned )?

More cars are built now in the UK than years gone by. And we export about 80% of them.

There are quite a few. But most are specialists and not mass production. Companies like Ford pulled out of the UK for cheaper labour in the EU. Then you have the trannies.......

But then you have the success stories like Honda and Toyota.

 

[Astute]

What did I blame on brexit exactly?

I’m not wrong about British manufacturing. The nations we’re competing with in that list are the best of everyone else. We’ll always be also runs. Brexit isn’t going to change that one iota.

You completely misunderstand the bigger picture. We simply don’t have the portfolio of companies we used to so can’t compete in all areas. For example let’s say thanks to brexit we strike a free trade deal with Japan. All those lovely Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, Suzuki and Mazda cars now coming to the U.K. duty free. Now, what can we send the other way? Er er, not Austin, Morris, Triumph, Humber, Singer, Hillman because they don’t exist. We’ve got JLR but here’s a problem, they have Lexus, Toyota also makes world respected 4 x 4’s as does Mitsubishi. When we joined the common market it was seen as a big opportunity for the British motor industry, problem was the EU made cars too and they did it better than us. U.K. car sales in Europe hardly grew at all and European car sales rocketed in the U.K. If you go to somewhere like Dubai do you think you see more JLR 4 x 4 product or Japanese? We already know that British loyalties don’t lie with British manufacturing from our experiences joining the common market (funnily enough this remainer is loyal to British products until very recently, always bought British or British built until about 4 months ago, my most vocal brexit supporting friend on the other hand has only ever bought Mercedes. He has a company car that’s renewed every three years and has done for the best part of 25 years, everyone a new Mercedes).

How is brexit going to revigour our manufacturing industry so we are once again a powerhouse not an also ran?

You make out that the EU is our saviour. But all this has happened whilst in the EU.

 

[Astute]

Yes. Close your eyes. Put your foot firmly on the accelerator and drive. What can possibly go wrong?

Let's blindly stay in the corrupt EU. What could possibly go wrong......

 

[martcov]

Let's blindly stay in the corrupt EU. What could possibly go wrong......

We have the lowest unemployment in years, manufacturing has been doing well, we are a major chemical and pharmaceutical exporter/ manufacturer.... Selmayr was appointed against the spirit of the law... right, let’s leave.

Shall we compare the UK’s situation with now in 5 years time? Will Selmayr still be there? Is it that relevant?

 

[Astute]

We have the lowest unemployment in years, manufacturing has been doing well, we are a major chemical and pharmaceutical exporter/ manufacturer.... Selmayr was appointed against the spirit of the law... right, let’s leave.

Shall we compare the UK’s situation with now in 5 years time? Will Selmayr still be there? Is it that relevant?

We were leaving before they broke their own rules and regulations to put Selmayr in the top position in the EU. So why do you always make out that it is why we are leaving?

Of course it is relevant. The EU is run to the benefit of Germany. Other countries overvalued their currency. Germany had an undervalued currency. So they started off with an advantage. And they have taken advantage of the situation. Now they are slowly taking over the top jobs or putting others in the top jobs where they have the same vision.

 

[martcov]

We were leaving before they broke their own rules and regulations to put Selmayr in the top position in the EU. So why do you always make out that it is why we are leaving?

Of course it is relevant. The EU is run to the benefit of Germany. Other countries overvalued their currency. Germany had an undervalued currency. So they started off with an advantage. And they have taken advantage of the situation. Now they are slowly taking over the top jobs or putting others in the top jobs where they have the same
.

Who are they? How did they plan Selmayr‘s rise so far in advance?

The success story of Japanese car factories is based on the EU single market. Wreck that and they’re gone. Along with others.

 

[skybluetony176]

Ah. So cover the truth and bend the rest of it.

So you don't understand what happened because of the constant strikes?

Before Thatcher Came To Power, The UK Was Literally Covered In Gigantic Piles Of Garbage

BBC NEWS | Magazine | Your 1970s: Strikes and blackouts

Why doesn't Britain make things any more?

So yes we moved away from manufacturing as less people were needed to manufacture the same amount. The car industry went down because of strikes and poor quality.

So joining the EU didn’t wreck one of our biggest historical manufacturing industries but leaving is going to revive that industry? How exactly?

 

[skybluetony176]

More cars are built now in the UK than years gone by. And we export about 80% of them.

There are quite a few. But most are specialists and not mass production. Companies like Ford pulled out of the UK for cheaper labour in the EU. Then you have the trannies.......

But then you have the success stories like Honda and Toyota.

More cars are sold worldwide than years gone by. What’s our share of that business as a percentage compared to years gone by? That’s the true measuring stick here.

You forgot Nissan who has a factory in Sunderland.

 

[Astute]

So joining the EU didn’t wreck one of our biggest historical manufacturing industries but leaving is going to revive that industry? How exactly?

How did you come to that conclusion? Because it isn't what I said.

 

[skybluetony176]

You make out that the EU is our saviour. But all this has happened whilst in the EU.

And now you’re saying it is the EU’s fault that the car industry collapsed in the U.K. I thought it was down to strike action and poor quality goods. Make your mind up.

 

[Astute]

More cars are sold worldwide than years gone by. What’s our share of that business as a percentage compared to years gone by? That’s the true measuring stick here.

You forgot Nissan who has a factory in Sunderland.

Forget Nissan? No. There are others I didn't mention.

Isn't it grand that the production you are going on about as a percentage went down during our time in the EU.

 

[Astute]

And now you’re saying it is the EU’s fault that the car industry collapsed in the U.K. I thought it was down to strike action and poor quality goods. Make your mind up.

Not at all. I'm trying to work out what you are saying. It is you that is saying that UK car companies disappeared during our time in the EU.

 

[skybluetony176]

Let's blindly stay in the corrupt EU. What could possibly go wrong......

You’ve just spent god knows how many pages giving us your version of what the EU is. If you know what the EU is how can we be blindly staying?

Blind is brexit. No one knows what it is. Even the ruling party has two warring factions arguing over what it is. There is no brexit vision. It’s all fingers crossed empty rhetoric tag lines. That’s the very definition of blindly following something.

 

[skybluetony176]

We were leaving before they broke their own rules and regulations to put Selmayr in the top position in the EU. So why do you always make out that it is why we are leaving?

Of course it is relevant. The EU is run to the benefit of Germany. Other countries overvalued their currency. Germany had an undervalued currency. So they started off with an advantage. And they have taken advantage of the situation. Now they are slowly taking over the top jobs or putting others in the top jobs where they have the same vision.

Presumably German industry was a wreck pre Euro then?