Second referendum : am I missing something ? (3 Viewers)

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

If there is a second referendum, remain will win if the idea is that should a deal be rejected then we stay . This is fundamentally flawed.
Lets say I am a member of a club with a group of mates for which I pay a monthly subscription and I decide I'm not getting value for money and want to leave. They don't want me to leave so they make me a better offer . I read the offer and decide it's still no good so I reject it . According to remainers , I'm therefore still in. What utter nonsense.
The Europeans don't want the UK to leave. If they are aware that there is going to be a second referendum and that should we vote to reject any deal we will remain in Europe then they will simply offer the worst possible deal. There will be no incentive to offer anything else.
Therefore any second referendum should be on the basis that if the British public ,in a second referendum, reject any final deal , we leave the EU, not remain . It's so bloody obvious to me but I haven't heard anyone else in the media talk about it. Am I completely wrong or what ?

 

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[Grendel]

Bannon, Bannon, Bannon, oh and any other person I’ve never heard of

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Who's Bannon and what's he/she said ?

 

[Grendel]

Who's Bannon and what's he/she said ?

Ask mad Mart on the Eu thread

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I simply can't be arsed .

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There is not a single way you can twist the idea of a second referendum without it being an insult to democracy.

 

[Grendel]

There is not a single way you can twist the idea of a second referendum without it being an insult to democracy.

Come on. Ban the old. Ban the mentally deluded (i.e leavers) and it’s democracy EU style

 

[Otis]

Shouldn't all this be in the EU thread?

Puzzled as to why we have started a new thread on the same topic that's been discussed for months now.

 

[Evo1883]

I’m more concerned about the amount of remainers that want their country to fail .
Unbelievable

 

[skybluetony176]

There is not a single way you can twist the idea of a second referendum without it being an insult to democracy.

Technically it would be a third one, the second one the EU was in 2016. Strangely I didn’t see it as an insult to democracy as democracy is the mechanism that allows us to change our mind. Not allowing people to change their minds when there’s a will to do so is an insult to democracy. Stop being such a snowflake.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m more concerned about the amount of leavers that want their country to fail .
Unbelievable

Corrected that for you. Brexit fundamentalists is what I believe Vince Cable is going to describe them as later. Which made me smile anyway.

 

[Evo1883]

Corrected that for you. Brexit fundamentalists is what I believe Vince Cable is going to describe them as later. Which made me smile anyway.

Vince cable lol

 

[SBAndy]

I'd imagine it will be on the premise of "do we take this deal or leave with no deal" and then there will be a General Election off the back of that.

 

[Sick Boy]

I’m more concerned about the amount of remainers that want their country to fail .
Unbelievable

Based upon what?

 

[clint van damme]

would not support 2nd referendum on Brexit would support vote on terms of deal. Quite clear there is no consensus on what Brexit means despite the empty rhetoric of Brexit means Brexit.

I have been keeping out of these threads but have been trying to understand what leaving without a deal will mean and how we will get on under WTO rules. I can't find anything that suggests we're not absolutely fucked.
Still think it's the lesser of two evils rather than overturn the result of the referendum.

 

[Grendel]

It’s impossible to actually have a vote on the terms of the deal

 

[Sick Boy]

would not support 2nd referendum on Brexit would support vote on terms of deal. Quite clear there is no consensus on what Brexit means despite the empty rhetoric of Brexit means Brexit.

I have been keeping out of these threads but have been trying to understand what leaving without a deal will mean and how we will get on under WTO rules. I can't find anything that suggests we're not absolutely fucked.
Still think it's the lesser of two evils rather than overturn the result of the referendum.

Whatever happens there is likely be some incredibly pissed off people. I agree that a second referendum would likely cause massive issues but I can't understand why some want to go ahead with it no matter what, especially if it means the country tanking.

Either way, I think we are going to end with a General Election relatively soon.

 

[Sick Boy]

It’s impossible to actually have a vote on the terms of the deal

The way I see it, it would either be accepting Chequers or leaving without a deal. As we've already discussed it won't even get through parliament.

 

[Grendel]

The way I see it, it would either be accepting Chequers or leaving without a deal. As we've already discussed it won't even get through parliament.

Yes so we leave without a deal

 

[rob9872]

Whether we're fecked or not, I really want to see it through to it's conclusion, simply on the basis of all the scaremongering that's taken place, particularly over the past couple of weeks about this will happen, that will happen, house prices will fall, etc etc. They may be right, but it's not helpful and certainly without any foundation.

The anti Brexit argument was largely based on it being the unknown and we don't know what we're getting so why risk it and stick with what we have. Now all of a sudden everyone is an expert and the world will implode. Well it didn't the day after the result and it hasn't in the period since.

If the option was remain (even close) does anyone think Brexiteers would still be vocal and would still be pushing for another vote or more accepting of a democratic decision? Surely the best deal for all would be if you can't change it to embrace it and try to make it work as best as possible rather than wanting it to fail for an "I told you so" moment.

I don't understand the protests either and they're certainly unhelpful. Attended largely by the great unwashed, marginalised communities, students and the hard left. All it does is cost money to police and triggers a few racist idiots who the tabloids use for a soundbyte.

 

[martcov]

I’m more concerned about the amount of remainers that want their country to fail .
Unbelievable

Who are they?

 

[martcov]

Whether we're fecked or not, I really want to see it through to it's conclusion, simply on the basis of all the scaremongering that's taken place, particularly over the past couple of weeks about this will happen, that will happen, house prices will fall, etc etc. They may be right, but it's not helpful and certainly without any foundation.

The anti Brexit argument was largely based on it being the unknown and we don't know what we're getting so why risk it and stick with what we have. Now all of a sudden everyone is an expert and the world will implode. Well it didn't the day after the result and it hasn't in the period since.

If the option was remain (even close) does anyone think Brexiteers would still be vocal and would still be pushing for another vote or more accepting of a democratic decision? Surely the best deal for all would be if you can't change it to embrace it and try to make it work as best as possible rather than wanting it to fail for an "I told you so" moment.

I don't understand the protests either and they're certainly unhelpful. Attended largely by the great unwashed, marginalised communities, students and the hard left. All it does is cost money to police and triggers a few racist idiots who the tabloids use for a soundbyte.

How naive? Farage declared that 52:48 in favour of remain would mean „work to be done“. The first vote was convincingly for remain. Didn’t stop people wingeing over everything from fruit quality standards to tail lifts on trucks for over 40 years.

 

[Grendel]

How naive? Farage declared that 52:48 in favour of remain would mean „work to be done“. The first vote was convincingly for remain. Didn’t stop people wingeing over everything from fruit quality standards to tail lifts on trucks for over 40 years.

The first vote was for the single market only and with the government agreeing on cabinet minutes to supress any discussion of future political and economic union with the EU.

It has no bearing on what people voted on in the last referendum

 

[rob9872]

How naive? Farage declared that 52:48 in favour of remain would mean „work to be done“. The first vote was convincingly for remain. Didn’t stop people wingeing over everything from fruit quality standards to tail lifts on trucks for over 40 years.

The last time I checked Farage had not been elected as an MP and had no say or bearing on it. He could spout as much hot air as he wanted but only to try and appear relevant. Whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of the leave vote are not hard right racists, Farage supporters, Trump endorsers or were swayed by the £350m NHS bus and would vote exactly the same way if a 2nd referendum was imposed on us. I, like many others, did it because I think it's the most beneficial thing for the long term future of our country. I may be wrong, but like 17m others I'm entitled to believe that and the protesting remainers should respect my right to believe in it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Shouldn't all this be in the EU thread?

Puzzled as to why we have started a new thread on the same topic that's been discussed for months now.

You can never have too many Brexit threads!

There'll be one on how we live without chorizo and chiabatta next, and whether it's a return to the good old fashioned British values of the sausage sandwich with brown sauce.

 

[clint van damme]

The last time I checked Farage had not been elected as an MP and had no say or bearing on it. He could spout as much hot air as he wanted but only to try and appear relevant. Whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of the leave vote are not hard right racists, Farage supporters, Trump endorsers or were swayed by the £350m NHS bus and would vote exactly the same way if a 2nd referendum was imposed on us. I, like many others, did it because I think it's the most beneficial thing for the long term future of our country. I may be wrong, but like 17m others I'm entitled to believe that and the protesting remainers should respect my right to believe in it.

why do you think it's beneficial?

 

[djr8369]

The last time I checked Farage had not been elected as an MP and had no say or bearing on it. He could spout as much hot air as he wanted but only to try and appear relevant. Whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of the leave vote are not hard right racists, Farage supporters, Trump endorsers or were swayed by the £350m NHS bus and would vote exactly the same way if a 2nd referendum was imposed on us. I, like many others, did it because I think it's the most beneficial thing for the long term future of our country. I may be wrong, but like 17m others I'm entitled to believe that and the protesting remainers should respect my right to believe in it.

Surely you should then respect the right of people to not believe in it?

Farage was never an MP but it didn’t stop him being about the most influential Brexiter going.


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[rob9872]

why do you think it's beneficial?

We put more in than we take out, therefore we are spending money to be part of something that then imposes rules and taxes on us beyond our control and beyond any power that we can vote for. Forget the £350m NHS and the rights and wrongs of it, but surely that money, even if you believe the lower value can be put into our services including the NHS but also schools, policing and other public services. I do understand the scepticism, but we traded with Europe long before the common market and if we have something of value to them, that will continue, similarly we'll still all buy German cars and they will want us to, so I cant see why that should change and what benefits there would be to either side on the threatened taxes imposed?

Finally and fundamentally, the dirty word that everyone is too scared to say - immigration. Now this isn't a block, immigration is good and that's been proved over many years, but we should have the right and ability to say no and also the right to say how many. We simply can't sustain the levels that it's been at in recent years.

What should've happened was the EU come to us pre-Brexit with a much better deal and all this could have been avoided, but they called our bluff, it back-fired and I'll bet they regret it. They undoubtedly will want to punish that decision to prevent others following suit (although there will be unrest when other states have to cough up for our shortfall). In the short term there may be some pain, but long term I believe having control can only make us stronger.

As I say, I may be wrong, but I'm willing to try and want it to succeed. ​

 

[rob9872]

Surely you should then respect the right of people to not believe in it?

Farage was never an MP but it didn’t stop him being about the most influential Brexiter going.


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I do respect their right not to believe in it, but not to disrespect the democratic decision and try to overturn the result.

 

[clint van damme]

We put more in than we take out, therefore we are spending money to be part of something that then imposes rules and taxes on us beyond our control and beyond any power that we can vote for. Forget the £350m NHS and the rights and wrongs of it, but surely that money, even if you believe the lower value can be put into our services including the NHS but also schools, policing and other public services. I do understand the scepticism, but we traded with Europe long before the common market and if we have something of value to them, that will continue, similarly we'll still all buy German cars and they will want us to, so I cant see why that should change and what benefits there would be to either side on the threatened taxes imposed?

Finally and fundamentally, the dirty word that everyone is too scared to say - immigration. Now this isn't a block, immigration is good and that's been proved over many years, but we should have the right and ability to say no and also the right to say how many. We simply can't sustain the levels that it's been at in recent years.

What should've happened was the EU come to us pre-Brexit with a much better deal and all this could have been avoided, but they called our bluff, it back-fired and I'll bet they regret it. They undoubtedly will want to punish that decision to prevent others following suit (although there will be unrest when other states have to cough up for our shortfall). In the short term there may be some pain, but long term I believe having control can only make us stronger.

As I say, I may be wrong, but I'm willing to try and want it to succeed. ​

I'm willing City to get to the final of the Champions league but it's not going to happen.

 

[rob9872]

I'm willing City to get to the final of the Champions league but it's not going to happen.

Never say never, one step at a time.

 

[djr8369]

I do respect their right not to believe in it, but not to disrespect the democratic decision and try to overturn the result.

It’s not likes they’re trying to overturn it in an underhand way. It’s by getting more information out there and having another democratic vote. That’s literally democracy in action. If after we leave things go down hill when can we have another vote? 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

People have been moaning about the EU for years, largely based on half truths and nonsense about the shape of bananas, why can’t we moan about leaving when it’s been a largely successful relationship and leaving could cause a downturn in our economy?


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[Captain Dart]

We put more in than we take out, therefore we are spending money to be part of something that then imposes rules and taxes on us beyond our control and beyond any power that we can vote for. Forget the £350m NHS and the rights and wrongs of it, but surely that money, even if you believe the lower value can be put into our services including the NHS but also schools, policing and other public services. I do understand the scepticism, but we traded with Europe long before the common market and if we have something of value to them, that will continue, similarly we'll still all buy German cars and they will want us to, so I cant see why that should change and what benefits there would be to either side on the threatened taxes imposed?

Finally and fundamentally, the dirty word that everyone is too scared to say - immigration. Now this isn't a block, immigration is good and that's been proved over many years, but we should have the right and ability to say no and also the right to say how many. We simply can't sustain the levels that it's been at in recent years.

What should've happened was the EU come to us pre-Brexit with a much better deal and all this could have been avoided, but they called our bluff, it back-fired and I'll bet they regret it. They undoubtedly will want to punish that decision to prevent others following suit (although there will be unrest when other states have to cough up for our shortfall). In the short term there may be some pain, but long term I believe having control can only make us stronger.

As I say, I may be wrong, but I'm willing to try and want it to succeed. ​

You missed out the relatively undemocratic and monolithic governance of the EU. Is also led to the UK being perpetually in a bloc that is far more often than not in the minority when it comes to strategic decision making in the EU, usually out voted by France & Germany.
Is the UK a winner or loser in the EU Council?

 

[rob9872]

It’s not likes they’re trying to overturn it in an underhand way. It’s by getting more information out there and having another democratic vote. That’s literally democracy in action. If after we leave things go down hill when can we have another vote? 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

People have been moaning about the EU for years, largely based on half truths and nonsense about the shape of bananas, why can’t we moan about leaving when it’s been a largely successful relationship and leaving could cause a downturn in our economy?


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You can moan, nobody has said differently, but it's happening, give it a chance and it might work. There was nothing in this vote saying it was forever. If in 10 years time people think differently and want to re-enter, I'm sure we'll be welcomed back, but let's see how this one goes before trying to derail it.

 

[djr8369]

We put more in than we take out, therefore we are spending money to be part of something that then imposes rules and taxes on us beyond our control and beyond any power that we can vote for. Forget the £350m NHS and the rights and wrongs of it, but surely that money, even if you believe the lower value can be put into our services including the NHS but also schools, policing and other public services. I do understand the scepticism, but we traded with Europe long before the common market and if we have something of value to them, that will continue, similarly we'll still all buy German cars and they will want us to, so I cant see why that should change and what benefits there would be to either side on the threatened taxes imposed?

Finally and fundamentally, the dirty word that everyone is too scared to say - immigration. Now this isn't a block, immigration is good and that's been proved over many years, but we should have the right and ability to say no and also the right to say how many. We simply can't sustain the levels that it's been at in recent years.

What should've happened was the EU come to us pre-Brexit with a much better deal and all this could have been avoided, but they called our bluff, it back-fired and I'll bet they regret it. They undoubtedly will want to punish that decision to prevent others following suit (although there will be unrest when other states have to cough up for our shortfall). In the short term there may be some pain, but long term I believe having control can only make us stronger.

As I say, I may be wrong, but I'm willing to try and want it to succeed. ​

If everyone took out more than they put in how would that work?? We put in more because we’re one of the richest nations. That money is used to develop the poorer nations so they can prosper, improve their economies which in turn benefits everyone as they are able to trade more goods. It also stops immigration into the richer countries as the situation in those countries improves...

Those rules aren’t imposed on us without our control. Rules and regulations are written and voted on by all and we’ve been one of the most influential countries in that. Look at all the various BS EN standards for an example. Those rules are then imposed so every competes fairly.

We already had the best deal of any nation.


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