The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (14 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

You're off your head.

Presumably you'd cut off funding to the poorest parts of places like Sicily?

No...the Mafia do that! You have indicated that yourself.

To claim the EU is a stong driving force behind organised crime and that the Italian mafia clans would have a lot less influence without is utterly insane.

That is you claiming that - not me!


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[Astute]

You're off your head.

Presumably you'd cut off funding to the poorest parts of places like Sicily?

Go and spend some time there, especially the Trapani region and find out how their lives of ordinary people have been ruined by organised crime. These people don't deserve to suffer even more.

To claim the EU is a stong driving force behind organised crime and that the Italian mafia clans would have a lot less influence without is utterly insane.

Cutting off EU funding will not put a hole in them nor will it make them less influential. It's all just wishful thinking and desperate stuff.

The only people who will be affected are those ordinary people.

I presume that you are aware of the tactics the mafia employ to get their hands on this land?

As I have said before the EU spends billions each year on administration. Over 6 billion a year IIRC. Why can't some of this go on watching where the money goes more closely?

So they fund a scheme in Italy. They pay for the whole scheme. But it starts and goes no further. What is wrong with staged payments?

Five insane ways EU money was blown in Italy

 

[martcov]

Yes Mart. Word it to how you want.

We were talking about the down side of migration as there was only supposed to be a good side to it and nothing else.

Up to 25% of population leaving.

Leaving kids behind.

Leaving old people to fend for themselves.

Whole areas becoming ghost towns.

Health care workers leaving so nowhere near enough left to look after their own people.

How long would you like the list to be?

Yes they should be able to migrate for a better and more prosperous life. But don't try to pretend that it is all good news. But that is your viewpoint. The EU allows it. People want to do it. So it must be good in every way.

A Romanian village feels the country’s emigration pain

You are always telling me what my viewpoint is. I think I should also be allowed to say what my viewpoint is.

 

[martcov]

The EU is directly subsidising it as explained in the Financial Times article I just quoted. Without the EU subsidies the Mafia's income and therefore its influence would be massively reduced.

What did they do pre EU? They have been around for 200 years and were doing quite well in terms of corruption and influence.

 

[Grappa]

This shit is insane.

'Post-brexit UK will synergise optimum zero-sum outcomes to re-energise pre-enablement frameworks robustly', states a fucking idiot.

 

[Sick Boy]

As I have said before the EU spends billions each year on administration. Over 6 billion a year IIRC. Why can't some of this go on watching where the money goes more closely?

So they fund a scheme in Italy. They pay for the whole scheme. But it starts and goes no further. What is wrong with staged payments?

Five insane ways EU money was blown in Italy

The EU does attempt to combat organised crime but the problem is that it's so well hidden and intertwined all the way to the very top that it's near enough impossible to stop it.

They also approach and intimidate local people into going along with their scams and obviously they are left with no choice.

It's such a shame as the south of Italy, and Sicily in particular is the most beautiful place in the world, IMO. You really should visit if you get the chance, especially the west of the island.

 

[Sick Boy]

No...the Mafia do that! You have indicated that yourself.

That is you claiming that - not me!


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I was not at all, another poster made the suggestion.

Just to put it into perspective, the 'Ndrangheta alone made over €53bn in 2014 and operates in several European countries, the most lucrative being drug trafficking.

How anyone could claim the EU is responsible for propping up the Mafia is beyond me. I'd be shocked if their reach didn't extend to having fingers in pies in the UK as well.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I was not at all, another poster made the suggestion.

Just to put it into perspective, the 'Ndrangheta alone made over €53bn in 2014 and operates in several European countries, the most lucrative being drug trafficking.

How anyone could claim the EU is responsible for propping up the Mafia is beyond me. I'd be shocked if their reach didn't extend to having fingers in pies in the UK as well.

I certainly agree they are likely have fingers in many pies in many countries - but I also agree that the EU is knowingly funding them. Only a dribble probably gets to where it is intended. Which suggests to me the money should be either taken away or fully accounted for. And by that I mean properly followed from top to bottom of the pyramid.

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[martcov]

The Irish seem to be good observers of what is going on in the UK and point out what to most neutrals is obvious:

Brexit shows that idiots and incompetents are in charge in the UK

 

[Astute]

The EU does attempt to combat organised crime but the problem is that it's so well hidden and intertwined all the way to the very top that it's near enough impossible to stop it.

They also approach and intimidate local people into going along with their scams and obviously they are left with no choice.

It's such a shame as the south of Italy, and Sicily in particular is the most beautiful place in the world, IMO. You really should visit if you get the chance, especially the west of the island.

How about the link I gave? Millions given in aid to a supposed fully running project. But the building didn't even have a roof, running water and more. One quick visit would have shown it to be a scam.

We are considering southern Italy next year. We normally hire a villa somewhere near Bra, Alba and Asti. But we are looking at getting a new motor home. So instead of aiming for arriving within 24 hours.....Over 1,000 miles from where we live.....We can stop overnight and go further. Then travel around and have a good look.The one i am after is nearly 30 ft long so will hold lots of beer and wine. Will miss not burning off the locals in Milan with my old people carrier though :smuggrin:

 

[Sick Boy]

I certainly agree they are likely have fingers in many pies in many countries - but I also agree that the EU is knowingly funding them. Only a dribble probably gets to where it is intended. Which suggests to me the money should be either taken away or fully accounted for. And by that I mean properly followed from top to bottom of the pyramid.

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I wouldn't say it is knowingly funding them, it probably doesn't have the resources to go and visit everything that's assigned money. In the south there's mostly been used properly and legally, it's not all being siphoned off by the mafia.

In an ideal world though none of it would land in the pockets of them, of course.

 

[Astute]

I wouldn't say it is knowingly funding them, it probably doesn't have the resources to go and visit everything that's assigned money. In the south there's mostly been used properly and legally, it's not all being siphoned off by the mafia.

In an ideal world though none of it would land in the pockets of them, of course.

The problem I have is they spend over 6 billion a year on administration charges.

How much would it cost to have some people checking up on projects that cost over a certain amount? They say billions are lost to fraud each year. Put a few millions into projects being checked and all you need is one fraud to be detected for it to pay for itself.

The problem is that the EU says it is down to the country where the money goes to check for fraud. But some countries have corrupt officials and even corrupt police. Yet they still hand billions over each year without checking anything.

 

[Grendel]

So in principal the two sides have agreed a deal. Has mart gone for a lie down?

 

[martcov]

So in principal the two sides have agreed a deal. Has mart gone for a lie down?

No. I do work for a living. Just unpacking my pallet of UK cider.... for my cider festival.. At the moment I don’t pay any alcohol tax on it as it is classed as a wine. Don’t know if that will be affected by Brexit. You can visit the EU visa free for 90 days, but may have to give details in advance. Assuming the UK offers reciprocal arrangements. The fun starts when May presents the deal to parliament.

 

[Sick Boy]

So in principal the two sides have agreed a deal. Has mart gone for a lie down?

Now it'll really get interesting...I expect Corbyn only has an eye on power and would put his chances of getting in above anything else. Not that he'd reverse Brexit, but I think he will push for the collapse of May and the government.

 

[Grendel]

Now it'll really get interesting...I expect Corbyn only has an eye on power and would put his chances of getting in above anything else. Not that he'd reverse Brexit, but I think he will push for the collapse of May and the government.

Which means an election would be called in April or May - Which means a hard Brexit has already occurred.

 

[Sick Boy]

Which means an election would be called in April or May - Which means a hard Brexit has already occurred.

The whole thing is an absolute mess. At least we'd have our charity bet to look forward to.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Now it'll really get interesting...I expect Corbyn only has an eye on power and would put his chances of getting in above anything else. Not that he'd reverse Brexit, but I think he will push for the collapse of May and the government.

You mean...self interest before the good of the country?

Perhaps I should put a line through 'Labour' immediately after the English National Party & UKIP???

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[skybluetony176]

Which means an election would be called in April or May - Which means a hard Brexit has already occurred.

Article 50 would almost certainly be extended in that scenario. Labour’s policy is a customs union, which also has cross party consensus so you would think that negotiations would be pretty straight forward after that as it would sort most of the sticking points. Which begs the question that if there’s cross party consensus for a customs union why has May backed herself into a corner by insisting that there won’t be one.

 

[Sick Boy]

You mean...self interest before the good of the country?

Perhaps I should put a line through 'Labour' immediately after the English National Party & UKIP???

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We probably disagree on what self- interest of the country would be, but yes I believe he would do. I still can't believe so many still seem to think he is secretly anti-Brexit and is waiting for the right moment to the pull the plug on it.

 

[Astute]

Article 50 would almost certainly be extended in that scenario. Labour’s policy is a customs union, which also has cross party consensus so you would think that negotiations would be pretty straight forward after that as it would sort most of the sticking points. Which begs the question that if there’s cross party consensus for a customs union why has May backed herself into a corner by insisting that there won’t be one.

What do you mean by cross party consensus? Because that could be said on just about every subject to do with Brexit.

The only chance would be the Norway version. But that would bring its own problems. And then you have what comes with being in the customs union. Like having to stay with EU rules and regulations. Many don't want them.

 

[Sick Boy]

Article 50 would almost certainly be extended in that scenario. Labour’s policy is a customs union, which also has cross party consensus so you would think that negotiations would be pretty straight forward after that as it would sort most of the sticking points. Which begs the question that if there’s cross party consensus for a customs union why has May backed herself into a corner by insisting that there won’t be one.

I think in that case the pro-remain MPs would revolt and it would remain a mess.

 

[Astute]

We probably disagree on what self- interest of the country would be, but yes I believe he would do. I still can't believe so many still seem to think he is secretly anti-Brexit and is waiting for the right moment to the pull the plug on it.

He goes against what the Tories say. He always wanted out of the EU.

 

[Sick Boy]

What do you mean by cross party consensus? Because that could be said on just about every subject to do with Brexit.

The only chance would be the Norway version. But that would bring its own problems. And then you have what comes with being in the customs union. Like having to stay with EU rules and regulations. Many don't want them.

Plenty don't want to divert away from them and slash regulations though. The EEA would be leaving the EU and allow the UK to strike its own trade deals, I believe.

 

[Sick Boy]

He goes against what the Tories say. He always wanted out of the EU.

I know but so do plenty of Tories.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

We probably disagree on what self- interest of the country would be, but yes I believe he would do. I still can't believe so many still seem to think he is secretly anti-Brexit and is waiting for the right moment to the pull the plug on it.

'Self interest of the country'???

I am on about Corbyn's self interest. All he is looking for is an opportunity to seize power when the time is right. He has no real desire to do what is right for me or you.

My take on crossing off Labour as a potential vote is precisely based upon that single-minded opportunism. Even Boris was laying things out from the perspective of what is right for the nation & not quite blatantly for Boris.

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[Sick Boy]

'Self interest of the country'???

I am on about Corbyn's self interest. All he is looking for is an opportunity to seize power when the time is right. He has no real desire to do what is right for me or you.

My take on crossing off Labour as a potential vote is precisely based upon that single-minded opportunism. Even Boris was laying things out from the perspective of what is right for the nation & not quite blatantly for Boris.

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Yeah his self interest is what I meant originally, I'm not a fan of his at all. My local MP, Peter Kyle, is excellent though and a thoroughly decent bloke.

The government has been a shambles on this though, we'd probably have been better off sending a SBT contingent over there.

 

[skybluetony176]

What do you mean by cross party consensus? Because that could be said on just about every subject to do with Brexit.

The only chance would be the Norway version. But that would bring its own problems. And then you have what comes with being in the customs union. Like having to stay with EU rules and regulations. Many don't want them.

It’s a regular question on question time “why isn’t there cross party consensus on brexit” and all but the hardest Brexit MP’s always confirm that there is and it’s a customs union. It’s only the likes of Rees-Mogg, Davis, Boris and the rest of their little circle that are dismissive of it. They are in the minority in Parliament. The only cross party consensus is a customs union on brexit yet May won’t accept the possibility of the only brexit arrangement likely to get through Parliament. It’s an extremely odd thing to do.

 

[skybluetony176]

I think in that case the pro-remain MPs would revolt and it would remain a mess.

Not so sure. Lib Dem’s maybe but it looks like brexits best and maybe only chance to get through Parliament.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I read something today on there not being any visas needed for UK citizens visiting the continent after Brexit. Is that true?

Been mad busy with work and I've been trying to stay away anyway really. Just curious on this one as it was one of the things we were being told to be worried about.

 

[Sick Boy]

I read something today on there not being any visas needed for UK citizens visiting the continent after Brexit. Is that true?

Been mad busy with work and I've been trying to stay away anyway really. Just curious on this one as it was one of the things we were being told to be worried about.

The EU said in a no deal scenario it would let UK citizens visit visa-free for 90 days out of 180, I think.

However, it would only be on the condition that the EU offered all EU citizens the same if there wasn't a deal.

EU proposes visa-free travel for Britons after Brexit

 

[Sick Boy]

If this deal was all signed off and implemented, I presume that the trade deal would kick in after the 2 years transition period, during which nothing would really change in terms of freedom of movement?

 

[Astute]

Plenty don't want to divert away from them and slash regulations though. The EEA would be leaving the EU and allow the UK to strike its own trade deals, I believe.

That is the Norway version.

 

[Astute]

I know but so do plenty of Tories.

Labour go against Tories and Tories go against Labour normally. But political parties have been forgotten about here.

 

[Astute]

It’s a regular question on question time “why isn’t there cross party consensus on brexit” and all but the hardest Brexit MP’s always confirm that there is and it’s a customs union. It’s only the likes of Rees-Mogg, Davis, Boris and the rest of their little circle that are dismissive of it. They are in the minority in Parliament. The only cross party consensus is a customs union on brexit yet May won’t accept the possibility of the only brexit arrangement likely to get through Parliament. It’s an extremely odd thing to do.

That is because the result said leave. A customs union isn't leave. And May said she is in charge of leaving.