The EU: In, out, shake it all about....

[skybluetony176]

I am denying your lies that the Irish population went down by about 25%. Now you are trying to change the wording.

Depends what period you measure it over. Over the whole of the 1940’s it was 16% as an average. That number of course fluctuated during the decade. At points it was higher and over 25% and at other points it was lower.

 

[Grendel]

To claim that the EU has not had major benefits and transformed Ireland is insane Brexit a reminder of how EU has benefited Republic

With respect that’s not the point you made is it. You said that emmigration has fallen since Eu membership and this can be used to model future behaviour from Romania

It was wrong wasn’t it?

Also net contributors’ citizens pay for this prosperity not the indigenous population

Why on earth do I want some of my taxation to go to Romania just as its in the EU

Admit it - your argument was wrong

 

[Sick Boy]

With respect that’s not the point you made is it. You said that emmigration has fallen since Eu membership and this can be used to model future behaviour from Romania

It was wrong wasn’t it?

Also net contributors’ citizens pay for this prosperity not the indigenous population

Why on earth do I want some of my taxation to go to Romania just as its in the EU

Admit it - your argument was wrong

It was not wrong at all, EU membership has made Ireland more successful and attracted immigrants from elsewhere from Europe to the country looking to work, again, which was unheard of previously.

 

[Astute]

Depends what period you measure it over. Over the whole of the 1940’s it was 16% as an average. That number of course fluctuated during the decade. At points it was higher and over 25% and at other points it was lower.

Tony. Last time. Show evidence of when the Irish population dropped by anywhere close to 25%.

People leaving and populations going down by a quarter are two totally different things.

And remember.......The Romanian population has dropped so quickly even though they have the most children in the whole of the EU.

 

[martcov]

From what I can see an average of around 30,000 per year left between 1945 and 1961 which was common with a lot of countries post war

In the 80’s there was around 22,000 a year leaving

In five years from 2009 25,000 a year left

There the argument that being in the EU has stabilised this trend is utter hogwash

No it isn’t.

Focus-Migration: Ireland

 

[martcov]

With respect that’s not the point you made is it. You said that emmigration has fallen since Eu membership and this can be used to model future behaviour from Romania

It was wrong wasn’t it?

Also net contributors’ citizens pay for this prosperity not the indigenous population

Why on earth do I want some of my taxation to go to Romania just as its in the EU

Admit it - your argument was wrong

Because the higher the income per capita, the more you can export to them. Plus if their wages rise there will be less potential discontent in Europe helping to avoid international conflict in the future.

I sell on some events in former East Germany, a market I didn’t have before reunification. It is beneficial to both parties. They have more freedom of choice and we can export. Trade grows and therefore wealth is created.

 

[Grendel]

No it isn’t.

Focus-Migration: Ireland

Oh Tony I had to let you off ignore for a moment

That graph ends when?

Oh dear

Astute has been factually accurate and he’s had your pants down - not for the first time either

 

[Grendel]

Anyway back on ignore - Tony the Irish expert as ever knows fuck all - I assume 25% was mentioned on Wiki

 

[martcov]

Tony. Last time. Show evidence of when the Irish population dropped by anywhere close to 25%.

People leaving and populations going down by a quarter are two totally different things.

And remember.......The Romanian population has dropped so quickly even though they have the most children in the whole of the EU.

I am amazed at your concern for Romania. What do you suggest? Do as the communists did? Lock everyone in to stop them going elsewhere? The whole point of standing up to communism was for freedom. Freedom to live and work where you want is a basic human wish and a great achievement of the EU, which you described as „just wrong“. I am still on the side of freedom.

 

[martcov]

Anyway back on ignore - Tony the Irish expert as ever knows fuck all - I assume 25% was mentioned on Wiki

On the run again? When things get hot .... wriggle, distract, insult and then leg it.

 

[martcov]

Oh Tony I had to let you off ignore for a moment

That graph ends when?

Oh dear

Astute has been factually accurate and he’s had your pants down - not for the first time either

The graph ends with a world wide crash starting in the USA and, amongst other things, wrecking the Irish economy. The net immigration to Ireland really kicked in in the 90s. Ever heard of the Celtic Tiger? The got money from the EU which brought Ireland up into modern times. Revolutionised it. But, no doubt you will quote figures from the start of the crash to try and make yourself right. Yes, things did go wrong after the crash, but that wasn’t the EU‘s fault.

 

[dutchman]

VAT scam isn’t a new scenario created by the EU, it happened before we joined and it will continue to happen when we leave.

There was no VAT in the UK before it joined the EEC!

VAT replaced Purchase Tax which was very much harder to evade.

 

[martcov]

Who is backing the leave „think tanks“? Why have Tax Payers Alliance admitted their smears and lies rather than have to disclose who is behind them? Same as Banks. He is wriggling under the spot light. What is the problem? Why can’t they just admit who is behind leave?
TaxPayers’ Alliance concedes it launched smears against Brexit whistleblower

 

[clint van damme]

Who is backing the leave „think tanks“? Why have Tax Payers Alliance admitted their smears and lies rather than have to disclose who is behind them? Same as Banks. He is wriggling under the spot light. What is the problem? Why can’t they just admit who is behind leave?
TaxPayers’ Alliance concedes it launched smears against Brexit whistleblower

Really dodgy the way they've just held their hands up to avoid scrutiny.

 

[dutchman]

Why can’t they just admit who is behind leave?

The people behind leave are the millions of ordinary men and women who failed to benefit from 45 years of membership.

 

[clint van damme]

The people behind leave are the millions of ordinary men and women who failed to benefit from 45 years of membership.

I think Mart was referring to the vote leave group who are at the centre of this

 

[martcov]

Really dodgy the way they've just held their hands up to avoid scrutiny.

The whole thing stinks. It is not a project to make the world or UK a better place otherwise there would be really decent people struggling on a lower budget not backed by billionaires. These leave campaign people are time and time again shown to be dubious and their „dark money“ seems to be a big secret. From Lord Snooty down to the spiv, Farage, I wouldn’t trust any of them. No connection with the interests of the people they purport to represent.

 

[martcov]

The people behind leave are the millions of ordinary men and women who failed to benefit from 45 years of membership.

Leave is an idea being backed by USA billionaires, and maybe even Russians, and various organisations are lobbying for their interests and smearing anyone who dares to point this out. The ordinary people are necessary to achieve the aim of opening up the UK as a market for US concerns, weakening the EU economically and politically, hoping for a sell off of remaining UK government assets, primarily the NHS, keeping Crown Colony tax havens and wrecking any EU tax evasion laws. The ordinary people are being used as a tool. They will work in a zero hours, gig economy without guaranteed 4 weeks holiday. Nowhere in the leave backers‘ scheme of things are real benefits for the forgotten people ( which is why they being given things like blue passports and 50p coins ), unless you are naive enough to believe that food prices will fall, or that things will be worse short term in return for future blessings... ( old trick ).

 

[Grendel]

I think Mart was referring to the vote leave group who are at the centre of this

The official vote leave group?

 

[clint van damme]

The official vote leave group?

Is it? I don't know to be honest.

 

[Astute]

I am amazed at your concern for Romania. What do you suggest? Do as the communists did? Lock everyone in to stop them going elsewhere? The whole point of standing up to communism was for freedom. Freedom to live and work where you want is a basic human wish and a great achievement of the EU, which you described as „just wrong“. I am still on the side of freedom.

Yes Mart. Word it to how you want.

We were talking about the down side of migration as there was only supposed to be a good side to it and nothing else.

Up to 25% of population leaving.

Leaving kids behind.

Leaving old people to fend for themselves.

Whole areas becoming ghost towns.

Health care workers leaving so nowhere near enough left to look after their own people.

How long would you like the list to be?

Yes they should be able to migrate for a better and more prosperous life. But don't try to pretend that it is all good news. But that is your viewpoint. The EU allows it. People want to do it. So it must be good in every way.

A Romanian village feels the country’s emigration pain

 

[Astute]

I think Mart was referring to the vote leave group who are at the centre of this

But that is the problem. Leave supporters are supposed to be thick. But not everyone benefits from being in the EU.

It is all about supply and demand. Builders...lots of supply not as much demand. Wages drop. Not enough homes for all. High demand. Prices up. There is a link that isn't happening.

High house prices are not good unless you are going to sell and not buy again. Prices are too high because the demand is too high. My wife is trying to talk me into one last house move. She has fallen in love with a house for sale. I bought my first house in the 90's. I paid 26k for a 3 bed semi that needed work. The house she has found needs a bit of work. I would do it myself. But the price now......... Young people need to raise many multiples of the average wage just to get a family home. But most don't even earn the average wage. They need to pay high rents and save for a deposit. Do you see a problem here?

 

[clint van damme]

But that is the problem. Leave supporters are supposed to be thick. But not everyone benefits from being in the EU.

It is all about supply and demand. Builders...lots of supply not as much demand. Wages drop. Not enough homes for all. High demand. Prices up. There is a link that isn't happening.

High house prices are not good unless you are going to sell and not buy again. Prices are too high because the demand is too high. My wife is trying to talk me into one last house move. She has fallen in love with a house for sale. I bought my first house in the 90's. I paid 26k for a 3 bed semi that needed work. The house she has found needs a bit of work. I would do it myself. But the price now......... Young people need to raise many multiples of the average wage just to get a family home. But most don't even earn the average wage. They need to pay high rents and save for a deposit. Do you see a problem here?

To be honest, what Mart posted was more to do with the Tax payers alliance than the leave group, Though both would have come under the spotlight if the case had gone to a tribunal.
It wasn't really about the pros and cons of leave.

 

[Astute]

To be honest, what Mart posted was more to do with the Tax payers alliance than the leave group, Though both would have come under the spotlight if the case had gone to a tribunal.
It wasn't really about the pros and cons of leave.

But his viewpoint is always about the leave side. His viewpoint is always about the benefits of being in the EU. His viewpoint is there is nothing bad about being in the EU. This is what stops all debate.

 

[clint van damme]

But his viewpoint is always about the leave side. His viewpoint is always about the benefits of being in the EU. His viewpoint is there is nothing bad about being in the EU. This is what stops all debate.

you're missing the point of that particular post though and the story it was about.
When someone goes to those lengths to conceal information about their backers then I'm surprised it doesn't make you slightly curious.

 

[martcov]

Yes Mart. Word it to how you want.

We were talking about the down side of migration as there was only supposed to be a good side to it and nothing else.

Up to 25% of population leaving.

Leaving kids behind.

Leaving old people to fend for themselves.

Whole areas becoming ghost towns.

Health care workers leaving so nowhere near enough left to look after their own people.

How long would you like the list to be?

Yes they should be able to migrate for a better and more prosperous life. But don't try to pretend that it is all good news. But that is your viewpoint. The EU allows it. People want to do it. So it must be good in every way.

A Romanian village feels the country’s emigration pain

Has nothing to do with whether the EU allows it. It is a desire for freedom. The question was whether you want to forbid the desire to live and work anywhere in Europe?

 

[martcov]

But his viewpoint is always about the leave side. His viewpoint is always about the benefits of being in the EU. His viewpoint is there is nothing bad about being in the EU. This is what stops all debate.

No it isn’t. If may look like that as you keep putting up anti EU arguments and I put forward the other side. At the moment there is increasing concern about who/ is was behind a group of „think tanks“ all operating from the same address. Funnily enough they don’t want anyone to know where the money comes from. Not very transparent. Which is surprising seeing as leavers are supposed to be ordinary decent folk, but the organisations leading them are totally the opposite. Why the secrecy?

 

[Astute]

you're missing the point of that particular post though and the story it was about.
When someone goes to those lengths to conceal information about their backers then I'm surprised it doesn't make you slightly curious.

I have always been clear. If someone has done anything wrong then the maximum needs to be done about it. But I am not going to get into a debate with someone who thinks the maximum should be done against someone who does things wrong on the leave EU when he defends everyone who does things wrong at the top of the EU. I am happy to debate with people that see guilty as guilty whatever the reason for it. But I have had enough of those who have an agenda and twist everything.

 

[Sick Boy]

Has nothing to do with whether the EU allows it. It is a desire for freedom. The question was whether you want to forbid the desire to live and work anywhere in Europe?

Seeing as his sister lives and owns a bar in France, I'm sure that he is pro-freedom of movement (I'd hope).

 

[dutchman]

Another 'glowing endorsement' of the EU from a pro-EU newspaper...

How the mafia got to our food
Siphoning off farm subsidies does not carry the same dubious “glamour” as the racketeering or drug running usually associated with the Mafia. But it has become a highly lucrative income stream for Italy’s organised-crime syndicates. Their forays into farming do not end there: in recent years, they have infiltrated the entire food chain, according to a Rome-based think-tank, the Observatory of Crime in Agriculture and the Food Chain.

A Mafia family could claim about €1m a year in EU subsidies on 1,000 hectares, while leasing it for as little as €37,000. “With profit margins as high as 2,000 per cent, with no risk, why sell drugs or carry out robberies when you can just wait for the cheque to arrive in the post?”

“The main reason for the increase in Mafia in the industry is the potential for large revenues.” As consumers have become more interested in the origins of our food, parts of agriculture have become exceptionally lucrative. With margins as high as 700 per cent, profits from olive oil, for example, can be higher than those from cocaine — and with far less risk.

For the consumer, counterfeiting is the main danger. “The falsification of food products is now the second-most profitable enterprise in the EU after drug trafficking,” says Europol’s Chris Vansteenkiste. “Food is where the profit is. Women buy a handbag every few months but you have to eat every day.”

 

[Sick Boy]

Another 'glowing endorsement' of the EU from a pro-EU newspaper...

How the mafia got to our food
Siphoning off farm subsidies does not carry the same dubious “glamour” as the racketeering or drug running usually associated with the Mafia. But it has become a highly lucrative income stream for Italy’s organised-crime syndicates. Their forays into farming do not end there: in recent years, they have infiltrated the entire food chain, according to a Rome-based think-tank, the Observatory of Crime in Agriculture and the Food Chain.

A Mafia family could claim about €1m a year in EU subsidies on 1,000 hectares, while leasing it for as little as €37,000. “With profit margins as high as 2,000 per cent, with no risk, why sell drugs or carry out robberies when you can just wait for the cheque to arrive in the post?”

“The main reason for the increase in Mafia in the industry is the potential for large revenues.” As consumers have become more interested in the origins of our food, parts of agriculture have become exceptionally lucrative. With margins as high as 700 per cent, profits from olive oil, for example, can be higher than those from cocaine — and with far less risk.

For the consumer, counterfeiting is the main danger. “The falsification of food products is now the second-most profitable enterprise in the EU after drug trafficking,” says Europol’s Chris Vansteenkiste. “Food is where the profit is. Women buy a handbag every few months but you have to eat every day.”

How is organised crime in Italy the fault of the EU? Organised crime is so intertwined with the country, especially in the south, it's almost impossible to root it out and get rid of it.

 

[dutchman]

How is organised crime in Italy the fault of the EU?

The EU is directly subsidising it as explained in the Financial Times article I just quoted. Without the EU subsidies the Mafia's income and therefore its influence would be massively reduced.

 

[Sick Boy]

The EU is directly subsidising it as explained in the Financial Times article I just quoted. Without the EU subsidies the Mafia's income and therefore its influence would be massively reduced.

No it wouldn't, it would simply seek new avenues of revenues. If you genuinely believe that the mafia would have massively reduced influence if it wasn't for the EU, then I don't really know what to say.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

No it wouldn't, it would simply seek new avenues of revenues. If you genuinely believe that the mafia would have massively reduced influence if it wasn't for the EU, then I don't really know what to say.

So the answer is to make it easy for them???

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Sick Boy]

So the answer is to make it easy for them???

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

You're off your head.

Presumably you'd cut off funding to the poorest parts of places like Sicily?

Go and spend some time there, especially the Trapani region and find out how their lives of ordinary people have been ruined by organised crime. These people don't deserve to suffer even more.

To claim the EU is a stong driving force behind organised crime and that the Italian mafia clans would have a lot less influence without is utterly insane.

Cutting off EU funding will not put a hole in them nor will it make them less influential. It's all just wishful thinking and desperate stuff.

The only people who will be affected are those ordinary people.

I presume that you are aware of the tactics the mafia employ to get their hands on this land?