The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (184 Viewers)

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As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%

  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Whether I'm happy with it or not is irrelevant. It was an advisory referendum, the time for complaining about that was when the referendum terms were being agreed.

However you could definitely make an argument for a second referendum had remain won, especially if close. You could argue that some were voting for the status quo while some were voting for remain and reform, although there was very little mention of that option during the campaign. Think that would be a harder argument as remain and reform should be something every country in the EU should be doing - striving to make the EU and the way it works better.

I highly doubt had remain gained 52% of the vote those leading the leave campaign would have fallen silent.
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You are unhappy. So you go down the route of saying that it was an advisory referendum and make out that we shouldn't leave because of it.

Give me one good reason why there should have been another referendum if remain had won. Or are you trying to copy Farage :nailbiting:
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
oucho said:
OK to be clear, if the UK govt got a declaration of article 50 through parliament without any referendum (advisory or binding), which would be entirely within the law and EU treaties, would you be cool with that?
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And Cameron sneaks out the back with millions on the after dinner speaking circuit.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
oucho said:
So there was no need for a referendum, despite all the changes to the EU since we voted to Remain in 1975....but when a vote was offered and it went the other way, now it's apparently requires to have another one....funny that.

Look, I was Remain too but I just think it's best accepted and we shiush make the best of a bad situation.
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There was no actual need. Maybe if there was a „Maastricht“ type event, you could argue for a referendum. I wouldn’t as we have a Parliament for such decisions. But there was no event. We now do have an event which was caused by a referendum. The only way out of this disaster is to ask the people who voted for it, to confirm that the deal is what they envisaged as they voted, or whether they would rather remain than accept the deal or the no deal that is now on the table. If they agree with you, then fair enough, put the foot on the accelerator and drive into the brick wall.
 
Sick Boy

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Astute said:
Corbyn is a politician.

Labour has a go at the Tories. The Tories have a go at Labour. He wants to have a go at the Tory leader. But if he agrees with us leaving he can't have that much of a go. So he then has to make out that he wants to remain and that leaving isn't the right thing to do.

You can always tell when a politician is lying. Their lips move.
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I'd disagree that he is openly remain, he didn't have much choice if he was to stay leader of Labour. It seems he abandoned his lifelong principles to make sure he stayed in power.
 
oucho

oucho

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
There was no actual need. Maybe if there was a „Maastricht“ type event, you could argue for a referendum. I wouldn’t as we have a Parliament for such decisions. But there was no event. We now do have an event which was caused by a referendum. The only way out of this disaster is to ask the people who voted for it, to confirm that the deal is what they envisaged as they voted, or whether they would rather remain than accept the deal or the no deal that is now on the table. If they agree with you, then fair enough, put the foot on the accelerator and drive into the brick wall.
Click to expand...

No actual need and yet when you give people the opportunity to vote, they vote to leave.

Never mind all this guff about how Europe wasn't a priority for most people; the Euroref got abfat far higher turnout than any election in decades .

What I particularly hate is the idea the Leave Lies codded a whole bunch of gullible poor thick bumpkins into voting against their own interests or those of their children. Patronising guff
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
You are unhappy. So you go down the route of saying that it was an advisory referendum and make out that we shouldn't leave because of it.

Give me one good reason why there should have been another referendum if remain had won. Or are you trying to copy Farage :nailbiting:
Click to expand...
I haven't said I'm unhappy. You seem to have assumed what I voted for incorrectly.

It was an advisory referendum, that is a simple fact. It could have been a legally binding referendum, as the one several years back regarding our voting system was, but that was not what was agreed to therefore it was always advisory.

Advisory means just that, it is not binding and is to be used by parliament as an indicator of the desire of the electorate. Now clearly if there was a landslide one way or the other that would be the end of that. Clearly there wasn't therefore there is an argument to be made, the same argument can be made from both sides, that there should be a second vote at some point.

Had remain won you could easily make an argument that the leave campaign was centred around a particular type of brexit (hard, soft, whatever you like) and that another type would result in a different result. It was a big flaw in the campaign, from all sides, that their positions weren't clearly defined.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
Sick Boy said:
I'd disagree that he is openly remain, he didn't have much choice if he was to stay leader of Labour. It seems he abandoned his lifelong principles to make sure he stayed in power.
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Which is what I have been saying. Just as bad as having May who wants to stay in the EU taking us out.
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
I haven't said I'm unhappy. You seem to have assumed what I voted for incorrectly.

It was an advisory referendum, that is a simple fact. It could have been a legally binding referendum, as the one several years back regarding our voting system was, but that was not what was agreed to therefore it was always advisory.

Advisory means just that, it is not binding and is to be used by parliament as an indicator of the desire of the electorate. Now clearly if there was a landslide one way or the other that would be the end of that. Clearly there wasn't therefore there is an argument to be made, the same argument can be made from both sides, that there should be a second vote at some point.

Had remain won you could easily make an argument that the leave campaign was centred around a particular type of brexit (hard, soft, whatever you like) and that another type would result in a different result. It was a big flaw in the campaign, from all sides, that their positions weren't clearly defined.
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Can you show me where it was advisory and wasn't meant to take us out of the EU?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
oucho said:
No actual need and yet when you give people the opportunity to vote, they vote to leave.

Never mind all this guff about how Europe wasn't a priority for most people; the Euroref got abfat far higher turnout than any election in decades .

What I particularly hate is the idea the Leave Lies codded a whole bunch of gullible poor thick bumpkins into voting against their own interests or those of their children. Patronising guff
Click to expand...

There was a professional campaign on social media and a continuation of the Brexitpress campaign. They promised several versions of leave to appeal to everyone. I don’t think leavers are thick bumpkins, although some are ( just go on Twitter, there are plenty around ), but reading some comments on forums and some articles in the press and listening to people like Farage, there was plenty of disinformation. There still is. People were being wound up, by both sides. Only now can we have some idea of what is happening. People are more aware of the EU than ever before. Tommy Robinson, UKIP and co are calling for a mass demonstration on 01. December to save Brexit. Brexit is a priority now. It‘s at make or break. Give it back to the people. If they vote Brexit again good. Worst case is that is 50:50. terrible Situation. We have to break the deadlock. Or at least try to. Otherwise I cannot see the country being united again in my lifetime. What’s the betting that there is violence at Tommy‘s demonstration?
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
But says he is remain......
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He was interviewed yesterday.
He said there would be no second referendum and no peoples vote in the near future.

He also said if there was a second referendum he didn't know how he'd vote but I think we can guess and it wouldn't be remain.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
oucho said:
No actual need and yet when you give people the opportunity to vote, they vote to leave.

Never mind all this guff about how Europe wasn't a priority for most people; the Euroref got abfat far higher turnout than any election in decades .

What I particularly hate is the idea the Leave Lies codded a whole bunch of gullible poor thick bumpkins into voting against their own interests or those of their children. Patronising guff
Click to expand...

Leave lies deliberately ignored alternatives to Brexit to e.g. control free movement abuse. Introduce ID cards to control immigration instead of leaving the EU, report says
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Whether I'm happy with it or not is irrelevant. It was an advisory referendum, the time for complaining about that was when the referendum terms were being agreed.

However you could definitely make an argument for a second referendum had remain won, especially if close. You could argue that some were voting for the status quo while some were voting for remain and reform, although there was very little mention of that option during the campaign. Think that would be a harder argument as remain and reform should be something every country in the EU should be doing - striving to make the EU and the way it works better.

I highly doubt had remain gained 52% of the vote those leading the leave campaign would have fallen silent.
Click to expand...
Farage said as much
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
oucho said:
No actual need and yet when you give people the opportunity to vote, they vote to leave.

Never mind all this guff about how Europe wasn't a priority for most people; the Euroref got abfat far higher turnout than any election in decades .

What I particularly hate is the idea the Leave Lies codded a whole bunch of gullible poor thick bumpkins into voting against their own interests or those of their children. Patronising guff
Click to expand...
Why that’s the truth
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Think we have seen how extreme and sidelined those politicians who feel hard Brexit is the way forward over the last week. But it’s all ok they’ll have made enough money from the fall in the pound to make their letters worthwhile
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
I think there is a difference between genuinely believing certain things may happen and talking about them as certain is not ok. This is different to staying things in a way that you know to be untrue
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
This is a few for starters. Would you like some more?
Leave Lies? Remainers Need To Look In The Mirror

Are you one of those who thinks politicians from only one side lied to us?
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That is already out of date. Some of the predictions could well still come true, such as companies leaving the U.K. or taxes being raised. A no deal situation would make that leavers assessment completely obsolete. The Third World War probably won‘t happen, but egoistic nation states destroyed much of Europe in the last century and who knows what would happen if we went back to that failed system. An EU army has been proposed by some and rejected by others. So nothing to see there at the moment. Leavers seem to be far more aggressive and extreme. A test will be when Tommy Robinson‘s followers march with UKIP on 01. December. No trouble from a massive remain demonstration, but my money‘s on trouble from Tommy‘s Brexit Betrayal demonstrators.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
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