The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (253 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

It’s like I heard that John McDonnell said the other day that he could ‘never be friends with a Tory’. It’s pathetic, small minded and shows a very narrow view of the world.

to be fair, they are generally cunts!

 

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[clint van damme]

In all seriousness, Mays proposal is an absolute bag of shit isn't it?

Spent a bit of time looking into it, having argued the toss on here about how I think no deal Brexit would be a disaster and the worse outcome I think she's managed to concoct something even worse.

I looks pretty water tight in terms of getting out of it in the future as well from what I can make out so we'd be trapped.

 

[CCFCSteve]

to be fair, they are generally cunts!

:emoji_joy:. I’ve voted Tory (and labour)....shit...that’s why I’ve got no friends...neither side want to be friends with me !!!

In actual fact that’s probably why I’ve got a fair few, because I’m open minded, listen to people’s views and willing to take onboard others suggestions and arguments.

 

[CCFCSteve]

In all seriousness, Mays proposal is an absolute bag of shit isn't it?

Spent a bit of time looking into it, having argued the toss on here about how I think no deal Brexit would be a disaster and the worse outcome I think she's managed to concoct something even worse.

I looks pretty water tight in terms of getting out of it in the future as well from what I can make out so we'd be trapped.

Read both sides of the arguments on it. Bizarrely, under the circumstances it’s probably reflective of the split nation that we are. She’s tried to please everyone and whilst I think she’s been a poor leader and handled negoations badly I can’t blame her for the mess we are in. It’s a combination of Cameron and the EUs initial arrogance, together with small minded, inflexible and intolerant approaches (from both sides). If politicians/governments consistently ignore large sections of voters and their concerns eventually there will be a backlash....it’s happening worldwide

 

[Grappa]

Read both sides of the arguments on it. Bizarrely, under the circumstances it’s probably reflective of the split nation that we are. She’s tried to please everyone and whilst I think she’s been a poor leader and handled negoations badly I can’t blame her for the mess we are in. It’s a combination of Cameron and the EUs initial arrogance, together with small minded, inflexible and intolerant approaches (from both sides). If politicians/governments consistently ignore large sections of voters and their concerns eventually there will be a backlash....it’s happening worldwide

As far as I can see, the only issue May's plan addresses is freedom of movement. It's an absolutely dog-shit deal.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Did you an Pete properly read my whole post ?! This is the problem with trying to sensibly debate this topic. People are either rabidly one way or the other and, like a lot of ignorant voters who will only ever vote one way in a general election (whoever and whatever they are voting for) take their tribal stance rather than listening to people’s (genuine) concerns/comments and trying to address them.

It’s like I heard that John McDonnell said the other day that he could ‘never be friends with a Tory’. It’s pathetic, small minded and shows a very narrow view of the world.

Ps not say that your post was pathetic, small minded etc, just people taking a tribal stance on matters. Life and events are not black or white

Did read the post was just coming back on one thing about we could have limited migration in the Eu but didn’t

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

As far as I can see, the only issue May's plan addresses is freedom of movement. It's an absolutely dog-shit deal.

And still won’t get through. Be nice if someone could come up with an alternative

 

[clint van damme]

Read both sides of the arguments on it. Bizarrely, under the circumstances it’s probably reflective of the split nation that we are. She’s tried to please everyone and whilst I think she’s been a poor leader and handled negoations badly I can’t blame her for the mess we are in. It’s a combination of Cameron and the EUs initial arrogance, together with small minded, inflexible and intolerant approaches (from both sides). If politicians/governments consistently ignore large sections of voters and their concerns eventually there will be a backlash....it’s happening worldwide

I have read both sides. I always try to but it's hard to find anything positive about this.
Read my posts on In this thread regarding how bad I think a no deal will be and how bad I think operating under WTO terms would be. I've slated those banging the drum for no deal but I think long term this would be worse.
Luckily I don't think it will get through.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Did read the post was just coming back on one thing about we could have limited migration in the Eu but didn’t

Could have partially limited it but not fully controlled. As I said, neither recent governments have attempted to properly control immigration for years and that’s what led to a lot of people voting for brexit (some totally misguided).

 

[Grappa]

And still won’t get through. Be nice if someone could come up with an alternative

I've got a feeling it will get through at the second attempt. It's a symbolic 'leave' they're after now .

 

[CCFCSteve]

I have read both sides. I always try to but it's hard to find anything positive about this.
Read my posts on In this thread regarding how bad I think a no deal will be and how bad I think operating under WTO terms would be. I've slated those banging the drum for no deal but I think long term this would be worse.
Luckily I don't think it will get through.

Sorry, my rushed grammar, I meant I had read both sides arguments in relation to Mays deal. Neither like it but probably aren’t being totally honest about their thoughts in public as it ticks some boxes on both sides but neither want to admit it as they both want the extremes ie Stay or Leave (no deal)

 

[clint van damme]

I've got a feeling it will get through at the second attempt. It's a symbolic 'leave' they're after now .

Who would she get support from?
She'd lose the votes of the DUP and at least 30 of her own MPs.
Could she make up the numbers among Labour and the lib dems?

 

[Grappa]

Who would she get support from?
She'd lose the votes of the DUP and at least 30 of her own MPs.
Could she make up the numbers among Labour and the lib dems?

If it's a binary choice between this fucking abortion of a deal and the potentially catastrophic no-deal, then logically, I reckon this deal has a chance. But then logic never seems to come into these things.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I’m probably going totally against public opinion but one thing I do admire about May is that even as a Remainer she has adamantly pushed back on a second referendum even when that could have been an easy personal ‘get out’.

Most would’ve done a Cameron and said ‘fuck it, you lot deal with this mess’

 

[skybluetony176]

As far as I can see, the only issue May's plan addresses is freedom of movement. It's an absolutely dog-shit deal.

I see your freedom of movement and raise you European courts loosing jurisdiction in the U.K.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Could have partially limited it but not fully controlled. As I said, neither recent governments have attempted to properly control immigration for years and that’s what led to a lot of people voting for brexit (some totally misguided).

Sure I agree

 

[Sick Boy]

I’m probably going totally against public opinion but one thing I do admire about May is that even as a Remainer she has adamantly pushed back on a second referendum even when that could have been an easy personal ‘get out’.

Most would’ve done a Cameron and said ‘fuck it, you lot deal with this mess’

I'm struggling to think of anyone in the party who would be able to be PM.

 

[skybluetony176]

TBF to her deal it does seem to be getting a mixed but largely positive reception from the business world. It didn’t go down too badly at the CBI conference in the week (except loosing freedom of movement) and she had support from Northern Ireland business leaders today also, in stark contrast to the DUP who they’re slating for their stance to the draft proposal.

 

[CCFCSteve]

If it's a binary choice between this fucking abortion of a deal and the potentially catastrophic no-deal, then logically, I reckon this deal has a chance. But then logic never seems to come into these things.

I agree. It depends what politicians see the options as. If a Remainer thinks voting it down will lead to a Second Referendum they will but if they believe that doing this could mean we end up with a No deal then they might support. If a Brexiteer thinks voting it down will lead to a change of leader and a miraculous renegotiation with the EU or a No Deal then they will but if they think it will lead to a second referendum and subsequent no Brexit, then they might support.

Interesting (and worrying) times.

 

[Sick Boy]

Could have partially limited it but not fully controlled. As I said, neither recent governments have attempted to properly control immigration for years and that’s what led to a lot of people voting for brexit (some totally misguided).

And we all know who was responsible for non-EU migration and failed to get it under control.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I'm struggling to think of anyone in the party who would be able to be PM.

Anyone in parliament Sick Boy....the paucity of options is embarrassing

 

[CCFCSteve]

And we all know who was responsible for non-EU migration and failed to get it under control.

All. May included. Labour policy was outrageous in retrospect and some argued it was tantamount to social engineering (I voted for them aroud that time so my bad !!!)

 

[Sick Boy]

I agree. It depends what politicians see the options as. If a Remainer thinks voting it down will lead to a Second Referendum they will but if they believe that doing this could mean we end up with a No deal then they might support. If a Brexiteer thinks voting it down will lead to a change of leader and a miraculous renegotiation with the EU or a No Deal then they will but if they think it will lead to a second referendum and subsequent no Brexit, then they might support.

Interesting (and worrying) times.

The sensible thing would be to go for the EEA option and try and negotiate some kind of emergency brake of FoM if net EU migration reached a certain level. It is a possibility according to one of the treaties, after all, if the economy remains successful both skilled and non skilled workers will be required.

That's the tragic thing for me, if the country remains successful then migration won't decrease much, if at all.

 

[Sick Boy]

All. May included. Labour policy was outrageous in retrospect and some argued it was tantamount to social engineering (I voted for them aroud that time so my bad !!!)

That would have been when the UK didn't impose controls in the early 00s on the eastern countries joining the EU as well

 

[CCFCSteve]

That would have been when the UK didn't impose controls in the early 00s on the eastern countries joining the EU as well

Agreed. As a country we didn’t use the options available to limit migration. The policitical establishment never imagined for a minute that the public would vote for brexit (nor did the EU) so ignored their concerns

It’s a big arrogant fuck up....so to speak !

 

[CCFCSteve]

The sensible thing would be to go for the EEA option and try and negotiate some kind of emergency brake of FoM if net EU migration reached a certain level. It is a possibility according to one of the treaties, after all, if the economy remains successful both skilled and non skilled workers will be required.

That's the tragic thing for me, if the country remains successful then migration won't decrease much, if at all.

Said a million times to mates that the EU should’ve pretended to give Cameron a concession (by telling him to use what’s already available and/or an ‘emergency brake’), remain would’ve won comfortably.

What’s done is done though

 

[Sick Boy]

Said a million times to mates that the EU should’ve pretended to give Cameron a concession (by telling him to use what’s already available and/or an ‘emergency brake’), remain would’ve won comfortably.

What’s done is done though

He did get concessions on not having to commit to the ever closer union and not bailing out eurozone countries though, which also seemed to be an issue.

I saw an article saying he could come back as PM, I thought I was hallucinating at the time.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He did get concessions on not having to commit to the ever closer union and not bailing out eurozone countries though, which also seemed to be an issue.

I saw an article saying he could come back as PM, I thought I was hallucinating at the time.

Me too

 

[martcov]

Did you an Pete properly read my whole post ?! This is the problem with trying to sensibly debate this topic. People are either rabidly one way or the other and, like a lot of ignorant voters who will only ever vote one way in a general election (whoever and whatever they are voting for) take their tribal stance rather than listening to people’s (genuine) concerns/comments and trying to address them.

It’s like I heard that John McDonnell said the other day that he could ‘never be friends with a Tory’. It’s pathetic, small minded and shows a very narrow view of the world.

Ps not say that your post was pathetic, small minded etc, just people taking a tribal stance on matters. Life and events are not black or white

No they are not black and white, which is what I was pointing out.

 

[martcov]

Read both sides of the arguments on it. Bizarrely, under the circumstances it’s probably reflective of the split nation that we are. She’s tried to please everyone and whilst I think she’s been a poor leader and handled negoations badly I can’t blame her for the mess we are in. It’s a combination of Cameron and the EUs initial arrogance, together with small minded, inflexible and intolerant approaches (from both sides). If politicians/governments consistently ignore large sections of voters and their concerns eventually there will be a backlash....it’s happening worldwide

Which is why there is push back against Trump and Brexit. Saying/ claiming to represent the „forgotten people“ to get your agenda through, and then riding roughshod over half the country ( now more than half ), only pushes the problem from one side to the other.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

point out what is drivel?

"The UK will become, Gregory says, “a warehouse economy: low skills, low productivity and low growth”.

this is the thrust of the article and it's already happening.

Yes...happening before the referendum! Not as a result of Brexit.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[martcov]

And if we did anything like that you would accuse us of racism.

People from Poland have come to live here for many years. I know a fair few Polish people from before they joined the EU. Why should it stop now?

But still you refuse to acknowledge the problems caused by uncontrollable immigration. You make out that it doesn't cause a single problem. You blame the rise of the right wing on anything but immigration. You blame lack of infrastructure on anything but immigration.

I have never said that immigration shouldn't happen. But we do need some sort of say on it.

What sort of say? Lincolnshire has profited from migrants according to the cutting Grendel posted. Without the migrants it would be a depressed area as many people have left the area. Who would decide if people should come? The ones quoted who don’t like „losing their identity“, or the ones that are happy to see people working and grounding families in what would be an area of declining population and wealth?

 

[martcov]

I agree. It depends what politicians see the options as. If a Remainer thinks voting it down will lead to a Second Referendum they will but if they believe that doing this could mean we end up with a No deal then they might support. If a Brexiteer thinks voting it down will lead to a change of leader and a miraculous renegotiation with the EU or a No Deal then they will but if they think it will lead to a second referendum and subsequent no Brexit, then they might support.

Interesting (and worrying) times.

Actually it is a leave argument that Lisbon and Maastricht should have been ratified by a referendum ( although we have a sovereign parliament ). Brexit is more far reaching than both of those. To avoid the „no one asked us“ about any deal May brings back argument, I would expect the leavers to join in asking for a referendum on accept the deal, or remain ( which is the better deal anyway ).

 

[dutchman]

Actually it is a leave argument that Lisbon and Maastricht should have been ratified by a referendum ( although we have a sovereign parliament ). Brexit is more far reaching than both of those. To avoid the „no one asked us“ about any deal May brings back argument, I would expect the leavers to join in asking for a referendum on accept the deal, or remain ( which is the better deal anyway ).

Er, no. We've already had a referendum in this country on whether to leave so the only options left are 'accept the deal and leave' or 'reject the deal and leave'.

 

[martcov]

Er, no. We've already had a referendum in this country on whether to leave so the only options left are 'accept the deal and leave' or 'reject the deal and leave'.

Oh really? What about the forgotten 48%, who are now 54% ( according to polls )? There will be a backlash if they are not consulted. Leave has not been able to present a scenario where the UK is better off than remain. People were promised they would be better off by leaving. It appears not to be the case. Leavers were misled, or just concerned about immigration, which is only one part of EU membership and ignores non EU migrants. Plenty of scandals coming out now about who actually was behind the leave campaign. The money trail leads to some of the richest people in the world in America. Why do you think that is?