The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (66 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Today, you are being quite reasonable. I said I don’t quote them and I didn’t see anyone else quoting them on here, but people parrot Brexit propaganda on here. It was obviously far more effective. One side was offering hope outside the EU ( selling blue sky ), and the other peddling fear. Many people voted for hope and many didn’t buy the fear argument. Doesn’t get away from the disgusting Nazi style leave propaganda though. A good reason for having an informed vote though.

I agree the remain side deployed classic Nazi style fear arguments

 

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[martcov]

Also you are pro neo liberal when it suits you aren’t you Mart?

I am for freedom, but not an economic free for all. There is a difference. Freedom to trample over your fellow human beings using your wealth as the libertarians tend to interpret liberalism is not my cup of tea. I was active in a trade union when I was younger and although I am now an employer, I haven’t dropped my basic beliefs of fairness. Which is why you won’t find me backing Brexit which I see as a con and as a distraction from the real problems of millions of people.

 

[martcov]

I agree the remain side deployed classic Nazi style fear arguments

Oh really? The Nazis used fear of foreigners, in particular black people and Jews. Black French colonial troops were stationed in Germany after WW1 as occupiers and some were blamed for raping white women. Jewish refugees who had come from the East escaping Russian persecution were portrayed as rats. The similarities to Brexit press headlines listing crimes by refugees and immigrants, and the Cartoons of Jewish refugees as Rats and Syrian refugees with rats amongst them, as pointed out by Fry, are obvious. Remainers suggesting an emergency budget etc. doesn’t come anywhere near the Nazi propaganda.

I am surprised that you are going down the route of comparing remainers to Nazis.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Well, you know that is not true. They reached their peak of 52% in June 2016 and it’s been downhill for most of the time since then. Latest figures 54% remain and 46% leave. Chances of May’s Brexit, virtually nil. GE virtually nil. Referendum with remain on the ballot, support growing.

Do you not read or listen or watch what is happening?

I knew you would reel off the usual stats, I'm just surprised it's so short by your protracted and captivating standards. We've heard all this nonsense before. Just think, in around 80 years everyone who voted will probably be dead. Perhaps they should right into the legal framework that around 2098 we should automatically return to membership of the EU.
You are just yet another bad loser.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

They have now been exposed and they were at the most intense in the direct run up to the referendum. I don’t understand your question abou ta higher percentage of leave voters even the day before.

My word you are really, really traumatised by this referendum result. I think you should seek professional help, otherwise you might become obsessed with it .

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Oh really? The Nazis used fear of foreigners, in particular black people and Jews. Black French colonial troops were stationed in Germany after WW1 as occupiers and some were blamed for raping white women. Jewish refugees who had come from the East escaping Russian persecution were portrayed as rats. The similarities to Brexit press headlines listing crimes by refugees and immigrants, and the Cartoons of Jewish refugees as Rats and Syrian refugees with rats amongst them, as pointed out by Fry, are obvious. Remainers suggesting an emergency budget etc. doesn’t come anywhere near the Nazi propaganda.

I am surprised that you are going down the route of comparing remainers to Nazis.

You are becoming delusional . This is all self indulgence written to conveniently fit your hypothesis.

 

[martcov]

You are becoming delusional . This is all self indulgence written to conveniently fit your hypothesis.

No, actually I didn’t need to fit anything in to fit my hypothesis which is not just mine anyway. Try looking at various collages of Brexit press headlines and the panic of papers like the Express at thought of the UK signing the UN pact on migration which binds governments and the press to fact based discussions on migration and refugees. They don’t like the term „fact based“ as it would affect theit sales which rely on propaganda and bullshit.

 

[martcov]

My word you are really, really traumatised by this referendum result. I think you should seek professional help, otherwise you might become obsessed with it .

I think you should try basic maths rather than me seeking help.

 

[martcov]

I knew you would reel off the usual stats, I'm just surprised it's so short by your protracted and captivating standards. We've heard all this nonsense before. Just think, in around 80 years everyone who voted will probably be dead. Perhaps they should right into the legal framework that around 2098 we should automatically return to membership of the EU.
You are just yet another bad loser.

No, people like you will be dead in 20 years, and we will be back in the EU by then, and people will be wondering wtf people like you were thinking about voting leave. Our grandchildren will be learning about loss of life in the Great War, the rise of right wing populism and it’s downfall after WWII, Suez, Afghanistan, Iraq, the crash of 2008 and the rebirth of populism and it’s downfall after Brexit. Wondering why people in Britain would be against the continent working in unison as opposed to endless wars caused by the selfishness of so-called independent sovereign states.. Strange times.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

No, people like you will be dead in 20 years, and we will be back in the EU by then, and people will be wondering wtf people like you were thinking about voting leave. Our grandchildren will be learning about loss of life in the Great War, the rise of right wing populism and it’s downfall after WWII, Suez, Afghanistan, Iraq, the crash of 2008 and the rebirth of populism and it’s downfall after Brexit. Wondering why people in Britain would be against the continent working in unison as opposed to endless wars caused by the selfishness of so-called independent sovereign states.. Strange times.

You never fail to talk utter drivel. You make statements and observations which you should take to the stage at Warwick University as a warm up act for Dara O'Briain and the like.

 

[Ashdown]

No, people like you will be dead in 20 years, and we will be back in the EU by then, and people will be wondering wtf people like you were thinking about voting leave. Our grandchildren will be learning about loss of life in the Great War, the rise of right wing populism and it’s downfall after WWII, Suez, Afghanistan, Iraq, the crash of 2008 and the rebirth of populism and it’s downfall after Brexit. Wondering why people in Britain would be against the continent working in unison as opposed to endless wars caused by the selfishness of so-called independent sovereign states.. Strange times.

'The continent working in unison'..............Problem is, it hasn't really worked out that well for all though has it ? Countries and people have been living in abject poverty due to being tied in the EU and the single currency.........of course you mean its worked out well for Germany and some of the Eastern block whose infrastructure we have been paying for.

 

[martcov]

'The continent working in unison'..............Problem is, it hasn't really worked out that well for all though has it ? Countries and people have been living in abject poverty due to being tied in the EU and the single currency.........of course you mean its worked out well for Germany and some of the Eastern block whose infrastructure we have been paying for.

Which country is poorer now than before the EU? How many live in abject poverty in the UK according to the UN study of the UK? We are not in the Euro and yet have the biggest gap between rich and poor. How does that fit in with your theory?

 

[martcov]

You never fail to talk utter drivel. You make statements and observations which you should take to the stage at Warwick University as a warm up act for Dara O'Briain and the like.

Utter drivel? Pointed out what others have pointed out. But you don’t like it, so it’s utter drivel. Fact is that a second referendum is becoming more likely. People are not happy with what Brexit has turned out to be. Some call it what it is.., a stupid decision, others blame May. Whatever, second referendum is on the way.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

'The continent working in unison'..............Problem is, it hasn't really worked out that well for all though has it ? Countries and people have been living in abject poverty due to being tied in the EU and the single currency.........of course you mean its worked out well for Germany and some of the Eastern block whose infrastructure we have been paying for.

Nailed it. "it's worked out well for Germany". And therein lies the ongoing justification for the EU.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Utter drivel? Pointed out what others have pointed out. But you don’t like it, so it’s utter drivel. Fact is that a second referendum is becoming more likely. People are not happy with what Brexit has turned out to be. Some call it what it is.., a stupid decision, others blame May. Whatever, second referendum is on the way.

Brexit hasn't happened . Pull your head out of your arse and have a look.

 

[Ashdown]

Which country is poorer now than before the EU? How many live in abject poverty in the UK according to the UN study of the UK? We are not in the Euro and yet have the biggest gap between rich and poor. How does that fit in with your theory?

The UK's problems have not been caused entirely by the EU of course but for years now employers have been able to offer shitty wages and zero hours contracts to all because of a seemingly endless supply of cheap labour. Our consumer driven economy needs to be readjusted away from relying on huge population increase just to maintain growth, we need to fuck off the Chinese and others and start making our own stuff again and get away from that buy it cheap and throw it away easily mentality that prevails. Also that growth is sadly being sucked up and funnelled into too few pockets and public services face dreadful strain because of the extra numbers. For various reasons tax revenues don't seem to be growing as they need to because useless politicians won't go after either the bludgers/criminals or the tax avoiders at both ends of the scale and won't make the super rich pay their share for fear of not getting their votes and support around election time.

 

[clint van damme]

The UK's problems have not been caused entirely by the EU of course but for years now employers have been able to offer shitty wages and zero hours contracts to all because of a seemingly endless supply of cheap labour. Our consumer driven economy needs to be readjusted away from relying on huge population increase just to maintain growth, we need to fuck off the Chinese and others and start making our own stuff again and get away from that buy it cheap and throw it away easily mentality that prevails. Also that growth is sadly being sucked up and funnelled into too few pockets and public services face dreadful strain because of the extra numbers. For various reasons tax revenues don't seem to be growing as they need to because useless politicians won't go after either the bludgers/criminals or the tax avoiders at both ends of the scale and won't make the super rich pay their share for fear of not getting their votes and support around election time.

do you honestly think any of that will change when we're out of the EU?
100 percent agree we need a stronger manufacturing sector, this government has done, and will do, nothing to encourage or aid its growth, that wont change next April.

 

[Astute]

I didn’t get anything wrong. I was talking about the UK not imposing EU rules for EU working migrants and you somehow included non EU economic migrants and those claiming asylum.

You then made up claims that I’d said something completely different to back up your argument.

As I’ve said before, not everything is about you. Yet again you’ve made it about yourself and played the victim.

It would have been better to discuss why the UK hasn’t bothered to impose the 90 day rule and why most people are actually unaware of it and that the Uk has bothered to use it.

Also how is it going to work post-Brexit? IMO Brexit will make it more likely that ID cards are introduced in the future.

So are you saying that you didn't say illegal immigrants from other EU countries are removed but not in the UK. And that is our fault?

How come you can't read or understand your own post?

 

[Sick Boy]

So are you saying that you didn't say illegal immigrants from other EU countries are removed but not in the UK. And that is our fault?

How come you can't read or understand your own post?

I was saying that it is not completely unregulated as another poster was claiming there was no regulation whatsoever. The UK has never bothered to put systems in place to ensure that those here are working and paying taxes. Someone from the EU could be in the UK and not work for years and still use public services like the NHS, for example.

In Italy I had to go to A and E one time and to be seen without charge I had to produce Italian ID, otherwise I’d been relying on medical insurance/E1-11, as I would have been unable to prove I was paying taxes.

In the UK there’s no official record of EU migrants and those here and not working after they 90 day rule can go undetected. Again, that’s the fault of the UK for not putting systems in place.

 

[martcov]

The UK's problems have not been caused entirely by the EU of course but for years now employers have been able to offer shitty wages and zero hours contracts to all because of a seemingly endless supply of cheap labour. Our consumer driven economy needs to be readjusted away from relying on huge population increase just to maintain growth, we need to fuck off the Chinese and others and start making our own stuff again and get away from that buy it cheap and throw it away easily mentality that prevails. Also that growth is sadly being sucked up and funnelled into too few pockets and public services face dreadful strain because of the extra numbers. For various reasons tax revenues don't seem to be growing as they need to because useless politicians won't go after either the bludgers/criminals or the tax avoiders at both ends of the scale and won't make the super rich pay their share for fear of not getting their votes and support around election time.

Some of what you say is correct. I actually agree on things like the tax dodgers, the reluctance to deal with this. Zero hours contracts and the gig economy avoid things like paid holidays. They are much stricter on these things here.

Public services are facing increasing strain especially the NHS. One major reason is the ageing population and this will get worse as the baby boomers start needing care in old age. A problem is lack of staff. Over 100000 vacancies and rising. Who is going to fill these vacancies? No way is immigration going to end when/ if we leave the EU. As for cheap labour. I don’t get that with only 4,2% unemployment , lots of vacancies and a minimum wage. Latest immigration figures show the slack of EU migrants being taken up by non EU.

We can not compete with the Chinese without either exploiting our workers more, or preferably by increasing productivity. Which would involve more AI and less manual jobs. Making quality products would help. Which is how the Germans compete with cheaper countries like China.

Opening up the UK to deregulation and allowing USA to flood certain sectors such as food and health won’t help wages or employment. Which is one reason why I prefer the „cosy club“ as Grendel calls it. Trade deals based reciprocated benefits.

 

[martcov]

I was saying that it is not completely unregulated as another poster was claiming there was no regulation whatsoever. The UK has never bothered to put systems in place to ensure that those here are working and paying taxes. Someone from the EU could be in the UK and not work for years and still use public services like the NHS, for example. In Italy I had to go to A and E one time and to be seen without charge I had to produce Italian ID, otherwise I’d been relying on medical insurance.

Which, again, is why I cannot understand the UK resistance to ID cards. Then in such cases you can identity the illegal immigrants.

 

[Sick Boy]

The UK's problems have not been caused entirely by the EU of course but for years now employers have been able to offer shitty wages and zero hours contracts to all because of a seemingly endless supply of cheap labour. Our consumer driven economy needs to be readjusted away from relying on huge population increase just to maintain growth, we need to fuck off the Chinese and others and start making our own stuff again and get away from that buy it cheap and throw it away easily mentality that prevails. Also that growth is sadly being sucked up and funnelled into too few pockets and public services face dreadful strain because of the extra numbers. For various reasons tax revenues don't seem to be growing as they need to because useless politicians won't go after either the bludgers/criminals or the tax avoiders at both ends of the scale and won't make the super rich pay their share for fear of not getting their votes and support around election time.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but if you think Brexit is about getting a better deal for the ordinary working citizens and making their lives better, you’re going to be disappointed.
If the economy remains successful, the amount of skilled and unskilled migration won’t change, it has been used to get people worked up. That’s the worst part of it for me, super rich members of the elite have portrayed themselves as being on the side of the working man and trying to make their lives better, I can’t believe people have fallen for it

 

[martcov]

Brexit hasn't happened . Pull your head out of your arse and have a look.

Brexit is in black and white. Over 500 pages. It will be voted on on 11. December. After that no deal or no Brexit. Enjoy your Brexit..... while it lasts...

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Brexit is in black and white. Over 500 pages. It will be voted on on 11. December. After that no deal or no Brexit. Enjoy your Brexit..... while it lasts...

Why will it be no Brexit ?

 

[martcov]

So are you saying that you didn't say illegal immigrants from other EU countries are removed but not in the UK. And that is our fault?

How come you can't read or understand your own post?

There aren’t any illegal EU immigrants under FOM. Do you mean ones that are not self sufficient after 90 days? You have quoted illegal immigrants in your posts or criminal refugees not being kicked out of Germany or Italy to a war zone or North Africa. Your original comment was that FOM is not regulated. It is, but the regulations in the UK are not enforced. Nothing whatsoever to do with non EU illegal immigration.

 

[martcov]

Why will it be no Brexit ?

That has been suggested, by others. It is also possible according to May. The only way I see that happening is: May loses her Brexit vote, resigns and/ or then loses a vote of confidence, Labour cannot force a GE, and it is given back to the people. The people say remain is the best option ( probable according to polls ).

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

That has been suggested, by others. It is also possible according to May. The only way I see that happening is: May loses her Brexit vote, resigns and/ or then loses a vote of confidence, Labour cannot force a GE, and it is given back to the people. The people say remain is the best option ( probable according to polls ).

I'm with you as far as May resigning is concerned. Quite possible. The rest , no.
Besides, we've already voted to leave. So except the deal, or we leave. The deal was always going to be worse than the deal when we were in. Everyone knew that anyway, apart from delusional remainers who hoped that they might offer us something better than Germany, France and the other 25 were getting already. We're all just going through the motions now, the outcome is inevitable.

 

[Grendel]

That has been suggested, by others. It is also possible according to May. The only way I see that happening is: May loses her Brexit vote, resigns and/ or then loses a vote of confidence, Labour cannot force a GE, and it is given back to the people. The people say remain is the best option ( probable according to polls ).

Whose going to vote to give it back to the people? The tories will not, Corbyn will say no and the UDP no.

Also we will have left by then

 

[clint van damme]

I'm with you as far as May resigning is concerned. Quite possible. The rest , no.
Besides, we've already voted to leave. So except the deal, or we leave. The deal was always going to be worse than the deal when we were in. Everyone knew that anyway, apart from delusional remainers who hoped that they might offer us something better than Germany, France and the other 25 were getting already. We're all just going through the motions now, the outcome is inevitable.

seriously?
Only certain sections of the leave vote thought we'd get offered something better than we had. Why would anyone vote remain if they thought after voting leave we'd be getting a better deal than currently?
See David Davis's comments about not having to give the EU a trade deal but doing it as a favour.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

seriously?
Only certain sections of the leave vote thought we'd get offered something better than we had. Why would anyone vote remain if they thought after voting leave we'd be getting a better deal than currently?
See David Davis's comments about not having to give the EU a trade deal but doing it as a favour.

I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet here. We would never be offered a deal which gave us an advantage economically ahead of any of the big players in Europe would we , given that all the other 27 nations would have to sanction it ? Here, sign this, then use this saw and cut your own hand off.

 

[clint van damme]

We would never be offered a deal which gave us an advantage economically ahead of any of the big players in Europe would we , given that all the other 27 nations would have to sanction it ? Here, sign this, then use this saw and cut your own hand off.

I agree, and I don't think anyone who voted remain thought we would. That's why they voted remain.

 

[Sick Boy]

Whose going to vote to give it back to the people? The tories will not, Corbyn will say no and the UDP no.

Also we will have left by then

There are Tory MPs now openly saying it may well be the best option and reports that Labour are moving towards it behind closed doors.

 

[clint van damme]

There’s Tory MPs now openly saying it may well be the best option and reports that Labour are moving towards it behind closed doors.

the agreement is fucking awful, everyone who voted leave and everyone who voted tory at the last GE will be responsible if we end up shackled it. Lets see how many have the balls to hold their hands up and admit responsibility and how many try and blame remainers/Corbyn/ the EU, everyone but themselves.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

There’s Tory MPs now openly saying it may well be the best option and reports that Labour are moving towards it behind closed doors.

the agreement is fucking awful, everyone who voted leave and everyone who voted tory at the last GE will be responsible if we end up shackled it. Lets see how many have the balls to hold their hands up and admit responsibility and how many try and blame remainers/Corbyn/ the EU, everyone but themselves.

Who is responsible , those who voted to leave ?

 

[martcov]

Whose going to vote to give it back to the people? The tories will not, Corbyn will say no and the UDP no.

Also we will have left by then

11. December?