The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (162 Viewers)

[Astute]

Your fixation of scapegoating tax paying migrants while letting successive governments off the hook is your opinion, but I majorly disagree.

This was clearly a reply to me. So are you now saying that it wasn't a reply to me?

No, I’m not saying that and have never said it. I don’t really care if people agree with me, im not desperate to seek approval for my point of view.

And again putting your opinion across as the truth haha!

No. It isn't that you don't care if people agree with you or not. It is the nonsense that you make up. Just like you have here.

 

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[Astute]

But that's what we are doing.
The current system necessitates it.
It's flawed and unsustainable. But it would be even if we were relying on constantly increasing the population with only indigenous people.
This is why it's such a big issue.

Exactly. But why is nobody calling you out for scapegoating immigrants and Immigration?

 

[Sick Boy]

Exactly. But why is nobody calling you out for scapegoating immigrants and Immigration?

Ermmm...because he isn’t and doesn’t bring every argument back to being about EU FoM and immigration.

 

[Sick Boy]

This was clearly a reply to me. So are you now saying that it wasn't a reply to me?

No. It isn't that you don't care if people agree with you or not. It is the nonsense that you make up. Just like you have here.

No, I’m not. If you think it is then that’s your problem, just stop trying to put words into someone’s mouth.

You continually let them off the hook with their lack of investment across the country and their Londoncentric approach and continue to attack working people coming to the UK to contribute. It takes the blame away from their policies which have neglected large parts of the country.

 

[martcov]

Where is your evidence for this overt racism ?

Statistical spike after Brexit. Poles attacked, threatened and a Spaniard hit on the head for speaking Spanish. People saying they would be prefer to be poorer to stop FOM. There were anti Polish Facebook groups- my niece was in one. That’s off the top of my head.

 

[martcov]

Are you on drugs or are you just taking the piss?

I’m not. You may have been on the tinnies though as you appear not be able to put a counter argument together.

 

[martcov]

And here you go again about scapegoating immigrants.

You were moaning about trains being full and late earlier. But our population has nothing to do with it you say.

I have said countless times it is the fault of past and present governments. But would you like to put it on record that our population constantly going up has nothing to do with any of the problems?

Not blaming them isn't scapegoating them. It is stating a fact. And if you do ever admit that it makes a difference you push it all onto those outside the EU and not those from the EU. But there is no difference of where they come from. They all put the population up by one for each of them that come here to live.

The only difference is that we get to choose who comes here from outside the EU. We get to choose how many come here from outside the EU. We have no say of those from the EU. We can't choose the skills. If there is a skills unbalance we have to find a balance from elsewhere. And from your past posts it is very important to have fruit pickers or we will starve.

There is a big difference between EU and Non EU. EU Migration is reciprocal and flexible. Many are already going back as circumstances change e.g. UK currency worth less, wages in their own countries rising. If there is a slump, many EU citizens will leave. Many are young and will be able to get jobs at home as the situation there improveds.

 

[Astute]

Ermmm...because he isn’t and doesn’t bring every argument back to being about EU FoM and immigration.

You are the one that tries to pretend that immigration from the EU makes no difference. And you pretend that I don't blame the British government's for doing nothing.

 

[Astute]

No, I’m not. If you think it is then that’s your problem, just stop trying to put words into someone’s mouth.

You continually let them off the hook with their lack of investment across the country and their Londoncentric approach and continue to attack working people coming to the UK to contribute. It takes the blame away from their policies which have neglected large parts of the country.

And here comes the bullshit again. I blame them more often than you. I remember the time when I put blame on Labour and you said it was only the Tories. So I reminded you how long they were in power for.

So if I don't blame the governments in charge why do I get a certain idiot having a go at me saying I can't be a Labour voter as I blame them as much as the Tories for the mess we are in. But look at the facts. Labour were in power in 2000 when our population explosion happened. And we're in power for years after.

 

[clint van damme]

Exactly. But why is nobody calling you out for scapegoating immigrants and Immigration?

I'm scapegoating no one.
I'm saying we have to change the way we're doing things with regard to the aging population isn't working.
There are other tangible reasons for immigration but I was just referring to it with regard to this aspect.
As has been pointed out, leaving the EU has only affected immigration from within it.

 

[Astute]

There is a big difference between EU and Non EU. EU Migration is reciprocal and flexible. Many are already going back as circumstances change e.g. UK currency worth less, wages in their own countries rising. If there is a slump, many EU citizens will leave. Many are young and will be able to get jobs at home as the situation there improveds.

Reciprocated?

So the same amount leaves as comes here?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

There is a big difference between EU and Non EU. EU Migration is reciprocal and flexible. Many are already going back as circumstances change e.g. UK currency worth less, wages in their own countries rising. If there is a slump, many EU citizens will leave. Many are young and will be able to get jobs at home as the situation there improveds.

Make hay while the sun shines.

 

[Astute]

I'm scapegoating no one.
I'm saying we have to change the way we're doing things with regard to the aging population isn't working.
There are other tangible reasons for immigration but I was just referring to it with regard to this aspect.
As has been pointed out, leaving the EU has only affected immigration from within it.

I know you are not. But I got blamed for scapegoating immigrants when I said the same.

 

[clint van damme]

I know you are not. But I got blamed for scapegoating immigrants when I said the same.

Fair enough.

 

[Astute]

I’m not. You may have been on the tinnies though as you appear not be able to put a counter argument together.

More like you ignore what I say and make out that I said something totally different. Just like SB does.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I’m not. You may have been on the tinnies though as you appear not be able to put a counter argument together.

His references are far more articulated and relevant, which is why you resort to the usual tactic. Maybe he's just left the pub with me.

 

[martcov]

Reciprocated?

So the same amount leaves as comes here?

No. About half. But the right to FOM is reciprocal. The last figures I saw were net 72000 in a year. The population is over 65 million. I don’t think the current EU net migration is ruining the country for the remaining 65 million. I also don’t think leaving the EU will mean better infrastructure and a better NHS. House prices may fall and the construction industry may slow down though.

 

[martcov]

His references are far more articulated and relevant, which is why you resort to the usual tactic.

What? „Are you taking the piss?“ is far more articulated and relevant? He is in your club mate. Maybe that is why you think he is articulated.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Statistical spike after Brexit. Poles attacked, threatened and a Spaniard hit on the head for speaking Spanish. People saying they would be prefer to be poorer to stop FOM. There were anti Polish Facebook groups- my niece was in one. That’s off the top of my head.

Yes there were some unwanted racist incidents. Does that particular highlighted statement mean people are racist though ?.

 

[martcov]

More like you ignore what I say and make out that I said something totally different. Just like SB does.

Read your own posts. What has an ageing population to do with the EU? You named it as on of the problems caused by FOM.

 

[martcov]

Yes there were some unwanted racist incidents. Does that particular highlighted statement mean people are racist though ?.

The ones saying it, yes.

 

[Astute]

No. About half. But the right to FOM is reciprocal. The last figures I saw were net 72000 in a year. The population is over 65 million. I don’t think the current EU net migration is ruining the country for the remaining 65 million. I also don’t think leaving the EU will mean better infrastructure and a better NHS. House prices may fall and the construction industry may slow down though.

Have I said anything different?

What I have said and did say yet again today was how can we plan when we can't choose how many and of what trades come here to live? It would be difficult enough even if we had a government that did the right things like house building and sorting out the lack of infrastructure. But as usual you will have missed this.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

What? „Are you taking the piss?“ is far more articulated and relevant? He is in your club mate. Maybe that is why you think he is articulated.

When you call me a cu*t as you did the other day, is that articulated and relevant ? No one's in my club I respond as I see things. If you don't like it I couldn't care less.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

The ones saying it, yes.

Where's your proof ?. That's your opinion, not a fact.

 

[Astute]

Read your own posts. What has an ageing population to do with the EU? You named it as on of the problems caused by FOM.

OK will say it yet again.

So it is OK for millions of younger workers to come here to help pay for our ageing population. But what happens when those millions that come here reach old age? Bring in many more millions?

 

[martcov]

Have I said anything different?

What I have said and did say yet again today was how can we plan when we can't choose how many and of what trades come here to live? It would be difficult enough even if we had a government that did the right things like house building and sorting out the lack of infrastructure. But as usual you will have missed this.

I haven’t missed it. But, you cannot control immigration that closely. We have millions of tourists, and people passing through and back to Ireland. If there are vacancies we will have migrants. We have vacancies for unskilled people and they will be filled by EU citizens legally or non EU under the radar. I am certainly not convinced that EU migration will continue at the pace it did when the Poles and then the Romanians came over even if we stay in the EU. The statistics show it reducing naturally. It is a red herring to say otherwise. A bigger problem will be illegal migration from non EU countries. That is the problem which the whole of Europe faces.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

OK will say it yet again.

So it is OK for millions of younger workers to come here to help pay for our ageing population. But what happens when those millions that come here reach old age? Bring in many more millions?

We simply try and solve our problems economically and socially by increasing our population at a ridiculous rate. One day we'll be at 70, 80, 90 million and Manchester will be in Greater London. Wonderful .

 

[martcov]

OK will say it yet again.

So it is OK for millions of younger workers to come here to help pay for our ageing population. But what happens when those millions that come here reach old age? Bring in many more millions?

The first problem is now, and in 10 to 20 years when the baby boomers need more care. There is no guarantee that the young people that are now here working in hospitality or construction will still be here when they retire in 40 years. The trend is that they are going back as their countries recover from the shock of going from communism to capitalism. I think we will be having a shortage of unskilled or semi skilled workers in the next few years because of this trend. We need their tax revenue and their labour. We can still be open to skilled people and IT workers from India whilst keeping FOM. It is complimentary. And people like you, me, Grappa, SB and your sister keep our rights to live, work or retire in the EU.

 

[martcov]

We simply try and solve our problems economically and socially by increasing our population at a ridiculous rate. One day we'll be at 70, 80, 90 million and Manchester will be in Greater London. Wonderful .

Yes. That is it. That is human society as we know it. Nothing to do with the EU. We, you and I, are coming up to the age where we will retire and not produce anything, but as we get older we will need more care. Do you wish to change the system now? And say, who cares about the elderly, send the young people away. We will have to change the system which relies on selling ever more products to ever more customers, but how? And when? The immediate future needs lots of people working and contributing to sustain itself, partly to look after the likes of you and I when we retire.

 

[martcov]

Where's your proof ?. That's your opinion, not a fact.

It is not a fact that all people that say stop FOM are racists, but some are.

 

[Sick Boy]

And here comes the bullshit again. I blame them more often than you. I remember the time when I put blame on Labour and you said it was only the Tories. So I reminded you how long they were in power for.

So if I don't blame the governments in charge why do I get a certain idiot having a go at me saying I can't be a Labour voter as I blame them as much as the Tories for the mess we are in. But look at the facts. Labour were in power in 2000 when our population explosion happened. And we're in power for years after.

Yeah, whatever.

You just continually make stuff up to back up your argument, it’s boring. Only the other week I blamed Labour for not imposing control on the eastern expansion.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

The first problem is now, and in 10 to 20 years when the baby boomers need more care. There is no guarantee that the young people that are now here working in hospitality or construction will still be here when they retire in 40 years. The trend is that they are going back as their countries recover from the shock of going from communism to capitalism. I think we will be having a shortage of unskilled or semi skilled workers in the next few years because of this trend. We need their tax revenue and their labour. We can still be open to skilled people and IT workers from India whilst keeping FOM. It is complimentary. And people like you, me, Grappa, SB and your sister keep our rights to live, work or retire in the EU.

There's no guarantee of any of this. As we suck in more people, we need better infrastructure to cope. This leads to more and more people coming in, so we need an improved infrastructure, which results with more and more people coming in. It goes on and on. Before you remind me, many are from outside the EU. We all know that.
I'm very ,very happy to see the population of this country level off, but I don't think that is ever possible the way the country has been run for many, many years.

 

[Astute]

The first problem is now, and in 10 to 20 years when the baby boomers need more care. There is no guarantee that the young people that are now here working in hospitality or construction will still be here when they retire in 40 years. The trend is that they are going back as their countries recover from the shock of going from communism to capitalism. I think we will be having a shortage of unskilled or semi skilled workers in the next few years because of this trend. We need their tax revenue and their labour. We can still be open to skilled people and IT workers from India whilst keeping FOM. It is complimentary. And people like you, me, Grappa, SB and your sister keep our rights to live, work or retire in the EU.

So in other words only worry about our kids/grandkids futures when the time comes?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Moreover what kind of overpopulated quality of life will they inherit ?

 

[Astute]

Yeah, whatever.

You just continually make stuff up to back up your argument, it’s boring. Only the other week I blamed Labour for not imposing control on the eastern expansion.

Just the other week? I am talking about last year or before.

So come out with it. What have I ever made up? You recently tried to say that when on about how many people left Ireland in the 60's that then become the 50's. Then you tried to deny how many had left Romania. Then you tried to say that Ireland's population stayed the same/went up because of how many babies they have and that Romanians don't have many kids. Then I showed you that the Romanians have the most kids in the EU. You then accused me of scapegoating immigrants. Your normal line these days when you are shown to be wrong. The other one you come out with is saying i have put words in your mouth when you get caught out.

Yeah but no but. You won't change the course of Brexit by trying to change the truth in here.