The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (23 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

The UK had a history of eating horse meat up until the 1930s, I’m not sure what qualifies one animal as being okay to eat and not the other.

Just culture

 

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[Sick Boy]

Here it is again SB.

So which part is untrue?

Which part is having a go at remainers like you have said?

I’ve already quoted the post above as the one I was referring to.

 

[Astute]

I've seen some well presented arguments for the case for a second referendum but none that have convinced me it is the right thing to do so I still don't support the idea.

I haven't seen one fact based salient argument for Brexit. Just pie in the sky nonsense with no basis in fact or reality.

Can't disagree in any way. The whole thing has been a shambles from the start.

But the Tories started it off and should solve what they started in which ever way is best. But whatever happens about half of the population at least is going to be pissed off with them.

I just hope the voters remember it for a lot of years afterwards.

 

[Astute]

I’ve already quoted the post above as the one I was referring to.

Yeah OK.

How about backing up your normal comment about having a go at remainers for once. There is the post you had a go at. Now tell everyone why it was having a go at remainers.

 

[SBAndy]

I try not to get too involved in this thread, because there is an awful lot of repetition and a lot of going round and round in circles.

Has a anyone at all changed their viewpoint on this thread and gone from remain to leave, or leave to remain? Anyone?

I find it all very simple (though maybe I am just simple).

I voted to remain, but fully accepted the will of the people.

Surely now though, things have changed. They very clearly have.

Did any of us envisage this mess 2 and a half years on?

Seems obvious this is a bad deal. a vast majority of MP's say it is. Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, the Lib Dems and the DUP all say it is. Many, many Tories say it is.

Real danger now of no deal. Is that what the public really want? Is that what they voted for? A Brexit at any cost?

If we were all told we will be worse off after Brexit would people then still have voted leave?

I have never called for another referendum, but surely all options now have to be on the table.

As I say, I haven't called for another referendum, but if there is to be one, I wouldn't see it as any kind of betrayal at all.

Things have changed and I don't think any of us thought we would be here, right where we are now with just over 3 months to go did we?

I think everyone agrees it is a mess.

All options to extricate us from this mess have to be considered don't they?

At the very least the government can put this deal to the people and see if they are happy with it or not.

I voted leave and would still stick by that assuming the deal was right. Having said that, I cannot get behind a leave campaign that goes down the route of Boris, JRM and the shouty brigade, so I am at a crossroads. I don’t think May has the wherewithal to deliver a softer yet meaningful Brexit due to being tied in knots by the ERG, but I dislike the direction that the EU is moving in both politically and financially. If there were chance of serious reform at the end of this process I would flip to remain, but I cannot see that happening. I’m almost at the point where I would abstain.

 

[martcov]

So remainers were happy with a remainer taking us out?

And yes you are right. The amount of remainers that have gone as low a level as the playground is sad.

You keep saying you are a remainer, but constantly try and find things to attack remainers with. That is very „playground“. Just admit that you are hard core leave and have done with this charade.

 

[skybluetony176]

Bullshit again.

So where was the badger baiting? Where was the fox hunting? Where is the Grand national held where you said horses get killed every year?

Not fussy eaters so there is nothing wrong with the French eating it? Next time you will say it is just as OK to eat dogs and cats as they are also animals.

I brought up eating horse meat? Would you like me to prove you to be a liar again?

Are you pro blood sport and pro racing whether that be dogs or horses? You must be to so spectacularly miss a point. Either that or you’re trolling. Either that or you’re 100% the moron I keep calling you? Having said that if it’s either of the first two you’re still the moron I keep calling you.

 

[skybluetony176]

Ask Tony. He moaned about us liking horse racing and how they go for horse meat. He had a go at our badger baiting. He had a go at our fox hunting. Trying to work out what it has to do with Brexit.

A) I didn’t bring the subject up.

B) Basically in your thought pattern equivalent to being a 12 year child being anti blood sport and anti racing means you hate Britain.

“Our badger baiting” “our fox hunting “ do you seriously think these are something to brag about?

 

[Astute]

You keep saying you are a remainer, but constantly try and find things to attack remainers with. That is very „playground“. Just admit that you are hard core leave and have done with this charade.

I don't keep saying that I am a remainer. You and the other remainers at any cost keep saying so.

I voted remain. But I see both good and bad about being in the EU. I have learned much more about the EU. Yet people like yourself ignore the good I say about the EU or leaving and try and jump on anything that can minutely seen as having a go at the situation. Just like SB right now.

Reform in the EU then definitely remain. No reform then it is down to the situation someone is in. Not everyone does well out of being in the EU. But you only see it from your side.

 

[Astute]

A) I didn’t bring the subject up.

B) Basically in your thought pattern equivalent to being a 12 year child being anti blood sport and anti racing means you hate Britain.

“Our badger baiting” “our fox hunting “ do you seriously think these are something to brag about?

Yeah OK.

Show me one time I have ever been for cruelty to animals. But I constantly pull you up on your lies. And even when they are so obvious you get backed up by certain people on here.

 

[Astute]

Are you pro blood sport and pro racing whether that be dogs or horses? You must be to so spectacularly miss a point. Either that or you’re trolling. Either that or you’re 100% the moron I keep calling you? Having said that if it’s either of the first two you’re still the moron I keep calling you.

You are such an idiot.

Have had enough of idiots in my life.

 

[skybluetony176]

Who was it then?

Grendull. He was trying to claim that we don’t have a culture of being cruel to animals. You know “our badger baiting” and “our fox hunting” . Maybe you think that the badgers and foxes love this too like the horses who are in such a blind panic that they will keep running with the herd following their natural instinct of flight until they die from either a fall or bleeding from the lungs once their jockey has fallen. They all love a bit of death you know. What an absolute moron you are.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yeah OK.

How about backing up your normal comment about having a go at remainers for once. There is the post you had a go at. Now tell everyone why it was having a go at remainers.

If you’re unable to understand what is written then I’d be quite concerned I were you.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yeah OK.

Show me one time I have ever been for cruelty to animals. But I constantly pull you up on your lies. And even when they are so obvious you get backed up by certain people on here.

Tell me again how horses love horse racing?

 

[skybluetony176]

You are such an idiot.

Have had enough of idiots in my life.

Don’t end it Astute. Suicide is never the answer.

 

[Sick Boy]

Tell me again how horses love horse racing?

Did someone actually say that?

 

[Grendel]

It goes deeper than polling numbers. Last time I looked, a vote tomorrow would yield a 55% win for Remain (note: I don’t take this as gospel). This suggests a couple of things, that the public are not happy with a Brexit process and/or the deal May is bringing back to the country. Public opinion doesn’t tend to shift about 7% to the other side over the course of 2 years. So the government should not sleep walk into Brexit because contexts have changed and the government needs nenewed consent to finalise Brexit.

It shifted 4% in one day in 2016

 

[skybluetony176]

Did someone actually say that?

Yes. Astute. In his childlike logic apparently because when the Jockey falls of and they keep running it must mean that they love it. Beggars belief doesn’t it. Also if you don’t agree with this nonsense it means that you hate the U.K.

 

[skybluetony176]

I try not to get too involved in this thread, because there is an awful lot of repetition and a lot of going round and round in circles.

Has a anyone at all changed their viewpoint on this thread and gone from remain to leave, or leave to remain? Anyone?

I find it all very simple (though maybe I am just simple).

I voted to remain, but fully accepted the will of the people.

Surely now though, things have changed. They very clearly have.

Did any of us envisage this mess 2 and a half years on?

Seems obvious this is a bad deal. a vast majority of MP's say it is. Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, the Lib Dems and the DUP all say it is. Many, many Tories say it is.

Real danger now of no deal. Is that what the public really want? Is that what they voted for? A Brexit at any cost?

If we were all told we will be worse off after Brexit would people then still have voted leave?

I have never called for another referendum, but surely all options now have to be on the table.

As I say, I haven't called for another referendum, but if there is to be one, I wouldn't see it as any kind of betrayal at all.

Things have changed and I don't think any of us thought we would be here, right where we are now with just over 3 months to go did we?

I think everyone agrees it is a mess.

All options to extricate us from this mess have to be considered don't they?

At the very least the government can put this deal to the people and see if they are happy with it or not.

Depends on what the options are. If it was a leave or remain referendum I would vote remain again. If it was vote leave with a choice of options on what leave means or remain so long as one of the options was EEA Membership I would vote EEA Membership. Aside from the fact that it’s the obvious solution to such a divided outcome in the first place it always would have been my preferred option anyway even before a referendum was ever suggested.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Did anyone vote for this?

Rolls-Royce to shift work from Derby to Germany over Brexit fears

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Jacob Rees-Mogg was right when he said the PM has lost the confidence of Parliament. The government is in a position where it cannot pass the deal of what it was elected to do. The result here is the government seeking a renewed mandate and calling a general election. However, with the timeline of the scheduled exit, that wouldn’t solve the issue completely. So, the logical conclusion would be a second referendum to sort the issue.

Leave won by a slender margin in 2016, and there was elements of deception in their campaign and promises made that couldn’t be kept. If this was an elected government, they’d be held accountable here. Regardless, in 2018 the public knows what Brexit looks like so it can either reject or accept Brexit with greater confidence than in 2016. Public opinion changes, and if it chose to change its mind in another referendum, it has the right to do so. Just as the result in 2016 was legitimate, so would the result of a second one? They’re both plebiscites. If polls are accurate, which of course they can be wrong, Remain would actually win by a larger margin than Leave did in 2016. If the public was still committed to Brexit, then so be it, the Brexiteers would be strengthened which is good for delivering Brexit. On the other hand, if the public changes its mind and rejects Brexit, it can do. The only reason to deny a referendum is people who are politically motivated Brexiteers who don’t want to risk losing. This isn’t really about following the ‘people’s will’ because if it was, the public would vote Leave again. It’s plain and simple.

Good reasons for a second referendum:

1. The government is physically incapable to deliver Brexit.
2. The 2016 referendum didn’t define what Brexit would look like. Public has the right to accept or reject the terms of any agreement.
3. Polls indicate a vote now would flip the result, by a larger margin than that ‘people’s will’ of 2016.

You’re wrong when you say there are no ‘good reasons’ for a second referendum.

Jacob Rees-Mogg was right when he said the PM has lost the confidence of Parliament. The government is in a position where it cannot pass the deal of what it was elected to do. The result here is the government seeking a renewed mandate and calling a general election. However, with the timeline of the scheduled exit, that wouldn’t solve the issue completely. So, the logical conclusion would be a second referendum to sort the issue.

Leave won by a slender margin in 2016, and there was elements of deception in their campaign and promises made that couldn’t be kept. If this was an elected government, they’d be held accountable here. Regardless, in 2018 the public knows what Brexit looks like so it can either reject or accept Brexit with greater confidence than in 2016. Public opinion changes, and if it chose to change its mind in another referendum, it has the right to do so. Just as the result in 2016 was legitimate, so would the result of a second one? They’re both plebiscites. If polls are accurate, which of course they can be wrong, Remain would actually win by a larger margin than Leave did in 2016. If the public was still committed to Brexit, then so be it, the Brexiteers would be strengthened which is good for delivering Brexit. On the other hand, if the public changes its mind and rejects Brexit, it can do. The only reason to deny a referendum is people who are politically motivated Brexiteers who don’t want to risk losing. This isn’t really about following the ‘people’s will’ because if it was, the public would vote Leave again. It’s plain and simple.

Good reasons for a second referendum:

1. The government is physically incapable to deliver Brexit.
2. The 2016 referendum didn’t define what Brexit would look like. Public has the right to accept or reject the terms of any agreement.
3. Polls indicate a vote now would flip the result, by a larger margin than that ‘people’s will’ of 2016.

You’re wrong when you say there are no ‘good reasons’ for a second referendum.

None of those are even close to being good reasons.

 

[skybluetony176]

Did anyone vote for this?

Rolls-Royce to shift work from Derby to Germany over Brexit fears

It’s all part of project fear. Nothing to see here.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

None of those are even close to being good reasons.

What a way to shut down debate. Your solution is a ‘no deal’, that is not what the British people voted for.

The only reason you’re against a second referendum is because you’re running scared.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What a way to shut down debate. Your solution is a ‘no deal’, that is not what the British people voted for.

The only reason you’re against a second referendum is because you’re running scared.

There is no debate, just like there is no good reasoning for a second referendum.

The only ones scared are remainers like you who still cannot accept they lost. If you want to have another vote to get your own way then that's fine with me as long as a party of your choice have it in their manifesto and win an election.

I already said if there was a second vote remain would win anyway, so not really sure where you're trying to come from on 'running scared'.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Did anyone vote for this?

Rolls-Royce to shift work from Derby to Germany over Brexit fears

Did anyone vote for any of the other business that were moved out of the UK with EU grants?

There's two sides as always.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

A narrow result on a binary question. Not able to get consensus on what leave is. Country divided. Economy affected by uncertainty. Campaign violations. Dark money. Foreigners influencing and manipulating. US and Russian. Why?

And you say it is insane to question leave? I don’t respect the result at all now. More and more is coming out including the collusion with the Trump camp and meetings with Russians. A major trade competitor on a purely selfish mission favouring the richest in society, and a major adversary backing leave, versus our European allies hoping for remain. Insane? No it is rational to question what is going on.

The only truth there is that you don't respect the result.

That's honest at least.

 

[martcov]

The only truth there is that you don't respect the result.

That's honest at least.

Are you actually denying foreign interference? Lobby/ think tanks who won’t declare all of their donors? Banks‘ dubious contribution? The country is divided? May’s deal was not on the ballot slip? To deny all that you must have your head deeply in the sand.

 

[martcov]

Did anyone vote for any of the other business that were moved out of the UK with EU grants?

There's two sides as always.

No they voted for the billions of incoming investment via the EIB.

 

[martcov]

There is no debate, just like there is no good reasoning for a second referendum.

The only ones scared are remainers like you who still cannot accept they lost. If you want to have another vote to get your own way then that's fine with me as long as a party of your choice have it in their manifesto and win an election.

I already said if there was a second vote remain would win anyway, so not really sure where you're trying to come from on 'running scared'.

Probably because you are denying people the democratic right to change their mind because you think remain would win anyway. It’s called running scared.

 

[martcov]

None of those are even close to being good reasons.

Now you are really desperate. Deny the obvious. Stop people changing their mind. Then talk about Nazis telling people how to vote.

It is you who is telling people that they have voted for this crap and that you will not tolerate them having a second vote in case they have changed their mind, which you wouldn’t want.

Who is the Nazi here?

 

[martcov]

I don't keep saying that I am a remainer. You and the other remainers at any cost keep saying so.

I voted remain. But I see both good and bad about being in the EU. I have learned much more about the EU. Yet people like yourself ignore the good I say about the EU or leaving and try and jump on anything that can minutely seen as having a go at the situation. Just like SB right now.

Reform in the EU then definitely remain. No reform then it is down to the situation someone is in. Not everyone does well out of being in the EU. But you only see it from your side.

Ok. Now tell us what is good about the EU and what reforms you would like to see? Which EU laws should be repealed, for you as a remain voter to be happy?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

There is no debate, just like there is no good reasoning for a second referendum.

The only ones scared are remainers like you who still cannot accept they lost. If you want to have another vote to get your own way then that's fine with me as long as a party of your choice have it in their manifesto and win an election.

I already said if there was a second vote remain would win anyway, so not really sure where you're trying to come from on 'running scared'.

You really are in complete denial about the reality the country finds itself in.

Britain cannot get this deal through Parliament and the government therefore, needs to break the deadlock by deferring to the public again. Something needs to be done and right now, the EU has said it won’t renegotiate the Brexit deal so something drastic needs to be done. So, a general election won’t change the position we’re in whether or not Corbyn or May, or a new Tory leader is in charge. The Government cannot carry on like this.

May’s Brexit deal isn’t a real Brexit, and no one voted for a no deal. Even Brexiteers want to avoid a no deal Brexit. That isn’t what the people voted for either. If the public knew we’d be in this scenario it’s very unlikely they would’ve voted Leave. You and I both know that. Or, if you do believe that, why are you dead set against another referendum? What’s changed?

The last paragraph of yours exposes why you’re dead set against a referendum. You belief a second referendum would reverse the first decision. You don’t really care about the democratic ‘will of people’, only that your side won. That’s hypocritical in my estimation.

The argument that you’re denying a people’s vote with another people’s vote is just a plain stupid argument.

 

[Ashdown]

Walk away, focus their minds, the EU haven't had to concede anything yet ! Time to tell them that they actually have to negotiate or there is no deal and their fragile economy will start to creak.

 

[skybluetony176]

You really are in complete denial about the reality the country finds itself in.

Britain cannot get this deal through Parliament and the government therefore, needs to break the deadlock by deferring to the public again. Something needs to be done and right now, the EU has said it won’t renegotiate the Brexit deal so something drastic needs to be done. So, a general election won’t change the position we’re in whether or not Corbyn or May, or a new Tory leader is in charge. The Government cannot carry on like this.

May’s Brexit deal isn’t a real Brexit, and no one voted for a no deal. Even Brexiteers want to avoid a no deal Brexit. That isn’t what the people voted for either. If the public knew we’d be in this scenario it’s very unlikely they would’ve voted Leave. You and I both know that. Or, if you do believe that, why are you dead set against another referendum? What’s changed?

The last paragraph of yours exposes why you’re dead set against a referendum. You belief a second referendum would reverse the first decision. You don’t really care about the democratic ‘will of people’, only that your side won. That’s hypocritical in my estimation.

The argument that you’re denying a people’s vote with another people’s vote is just a plain stupid argument.

Not had time to check it yet but a member of the question time audience claimed yesterday that if you look at the demographics of how old and young voted and then consider that how many voters from the older demographic have died and how many younger voters have come of voting age since the referendum that on its own is enough to shift the vote to remain without a shift in change of opinion by anyone who voted in the last referendum. Certainly no one from the panel dismissed that claim anyway.

As Ricky Gervais said, did we really need to have a referendum to find out that the old hate the young.

 

[clint van damme]

Walk away, focus their minds, the EU haven't had to concede anything yet ! Time to tell them that they actually have to negotiate or there is no deal and their fragile economy will start to creak.

Look at how our politicians have performed on this issue. Look at Liam Fox's absurd comments on the EU-japan free trade deal he made either today or yesterday.
I wonder if some of them have got minds to focus!