The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (39 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Doesn't it seem quite obvious that May is just trying to delay and delay the vote in the knowledge that she knows so many MP's are against the no deal option and therefore more likely to have to choose her deal?

Surely MP's are not so daft as to let her do that are they?

Seemingly a lot of her own party are calling for a vote this week

All businesses will want the deal and it will be a choice of take it leave without it or stay against the referendum result

 

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[Sky Blue Pete]

All businesses will want the deal and it will be a choice of take it leave without it or stay against the referendum result

Is that you saying it’s good tactics?

 

[clint van damme]

The other angle could be that if Corbyn and labour do decide to support a second referendum then surely all these conservatives who have just demonstrated the right to change their mind must back a second referendum or will twice look like hypocrites having juxtaposed their position twice if they don’t back one.

there are so many ways this can go it's incredible.
I still wouldn't rule out May adding staying in the customs union to her deal to get support in the Labour ranks.

 

[Astute]

I can go weeks without drinking these days but can still drink Guinness like it’s water, I just pay for it the next day.

Love my Guinness as long as it is kept properly. And I have the added bonus of never getting hangovers. My sister is the same. I put it down to only having one braincell. Nothing to collide in my head.

 

[Astute]

With their 10 MPs?

It’s not too far fetched for Labour to get a few Tory MPs on side, especially with Theresa May seemingly refusing to even consider a second referendum. But, any vote of no confidence should be held off until after the vote on May’s deal. The threat of a Labour government may just rally Tory MPs behind their leader and potentially increase support for her deal to.

If it is a vote on May being fit for purpose she will win. If it is a vote on the Tory government I think the DUP will want to cling onto power. What is the chance of them having any say if there is another GE whatever the result?

 

[Astute]

This was what I meant

That is what it is. A dream. But it is becoming a nightmare all over the EU. They are now dictating finances to countries. And it isn't going down well. Italy has been the first large economy to get it. And now it looks like France could get it next year after giving in to the people of France. There is a good chance they will miss their targets. If the EU comes down hard on Italy they will have to do the same with France. But if they don't they will lose the power over the countries in the EU.

This could go either way.

 

[Astute]

Yep it’s outrageous to delay the vote when nothing will change. They are just waiting a month for no reason. Justine Greening saying just that on tv

I think she is stalling for as long as she can until the leave date. Then it will be take her deal or leave without a deal.

So in other words a shit deal or no deal.

 

[skybluetony176]

there are so many ways this can go it's incredible.
I still wouldn't rule out May adding staying in the customs union to her deal to get support in the Labour ranks.

Her own ranks too. It’s the only brexit scenario that has cross party consensus.

 

[martcov]

That is what it is. A dream. But it is becoming a nightmare all over the EU. They are now dictating finances to countries. And it isn't going down well. Italy has been the first large economy to get it. And now it looks like France could get it next year after giving in to the people of France. There is a good chance they will miss their targets. If the EU comes down hard on Italy they will have to do the same with France. But if they don't they will lose the power over the countries in the EU.

This could go either way.

They are not dictating. Where did you get that? Italy signed a voluntary agreement to be in a monetary union. They agreed to the rules that they now wish to break. Italy is saying we are breaking the rules we agreed to whatever you may think. Who is dictating to who?

 

[martcov]

That is what it is. A dream. But it is becoming a nightmare all over the EU. They are now dictating finances to countries. And it isn't going down well. Italy has been the first large economy to get it. And now it looks like France could get it next year after giving in to the people of France. There is a good chance they will miss their targets. If the EU comes down hard on Italy they will have to do the same with France. But if they don't they will lose the power over the countries in the EU.

This could go either way.

The EU doesn’t have power over countries, the countries are the EU. The Union is a group of countries sharing power. As parties do in our parliament. It is a rule based agreement to share powers. Some sovereignty is given up in order to be part of a rule based group. Not all sovereignty is given up, and in the worst case countries can jettison themselves into the unknown. They are sovereign states. The majority see sharing sovereignty as the sensible option.

 

[Grendel]

The EU doesn’t have power over countries, the countries are the EU. The Union is a group of countries sharing power. As parties do in our parliament. It is a rule based agreement to share powers. Some sovereignty is given up in order to be part of a rule based group. Not all sovereignty is given up, and in the worst case countries can jettison themselves into the unknown. They are sovereign states. The majority see sharing sovereignty as the sensible option.

So Italy can set its own budget then?

 

[martcov]

So Italy can set its own budget then?

If it keeps to the rules it agreed, of course it can.

 

[Otis]

Does make me laugh Theresa May talking about Corbyn playing political games.

Is putting the vote off until the 3rd week in January not playing political games then?

They are ALL playing political games, surely. All sides.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

So Italy can set its own budget then?

Finally a BIG admission in Mart's comment!!!

"Not all sovereignty is given up"...some has been. The future EU "dream" is to gradually erode all sovereign power...but somebody somewhere will call the shots. Wonder if he will go on to admit who that will be???

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

That is what it is. A dream. But it is becoming a nightmare all over the EU. They are now dictating finances to countries. And it isn't going down well. Italy has been the first large economy to get it. And now it looks like France could get it next year after giving in to the people of France. There is a good chance they will miss their targets. If the EU comes down hard on Italy they will have to do the same with France. But if they don't they will lose the power over the countries in the EU.

This could go either way.

I think that’s fair

 

[martcov]

Finally a BIG admission in Mart's comment!!!

"Not all sovereignty is given up"...some has been. The future EU "dream" is to gradually erode all sovereign power...but somebody somewhere will call the shots. Wonder if he will go on to admit who that will be???

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

? What is an admission? When you agree to cooperate under rules with any other body, you automatically give up some sovereignty otherwise there would never be any deals anywhere. If we leave we will still automatically give up some sovereignty as soon as we sign a trade deal where we agree to accept certain rules and have to accept arbitration from some form of court in the case of disputes. As for the rest of your post, just pure Faragist claptrap. The EU is a Union, so if any „dream“ is to come true everyone has to agree on the fundamental decisions. It is unlikely that all vetoes will be given up in the foreseeable future.

 

[martcov]

I think that’s fair

Hardly. To agree to a set of rules, say you are going to break them unilaterally and when the other partners says you cannot unilaterally break the rules of the agreement, then say that the people unpholding the rules you signed up to are dictating to you, is madness. Try that form of negotiating when the bank manager complains that you have exceeded your overdraft limit. How dare he complain the little dictator, I will overdraw the limit if I want to, I am a free man!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Finally a BIG admission in Mart's comment!!!

"Not all sovereignty is given up"...some has been. The future EU "dream" is to gradually erode all sovereign power...but somebody somewhere will call the shots. Wonder if he will go on to admit who that will be???

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

All of us is the dream but I take the cynicism and distrust of someone not British doing it. All power corrupts someone once said

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Hardly. To agree to a set of rules, say you are going to break them unilaterally and when the other partners says you cannot unilaterally break the rules of the agreement, then say that the people unpholding the rules you signed up to are dictating to you, is madness. Try that form of negotiating when the bank manager complains that you have exceeded your overdraft limit. How dare he complain the little dictator, I will overdraw the limit if I want to, I am a free man!

Sorry the comments were fair on my principled stand as to why I’m for remaining. It’s a dream a desire a human journey towards a better future for all and astute put the alternative

 

[Grendel]

If it keeps to the rules it agreed, of course it can.

No then

 

[Captain Dart]

If it is a vote on May being fit for purpose she will win. If it is a vote on the Tory government I think the DUP will want to cling onto power. What is the chance of them having any say if there is another GE whatever the result?

It isn't about them clinging to power, it is about ensuring an IRA supporter does not become PM.
Corbyn will be 73 near as damn it by the time of the next scheduled election, I can't see him remaining Labour leader that long.

 

[Astute]

If it keeps to the rules it agreed, of course it can.

Couldn't resist. Had to look at what story you were coming out with this time.

So what you are saying is that all countries are free to set their own budgets as long as they are within EU rules and regulations.

So they are not free to set their own budgets as they like. They must follow orders from the EU.

Italy can't afford to keep to the rules given to them by the EU. So what do you command that happens next?

 

[Astute]

It isn't about them clinging to power, it is about ensuring an IRA supporter does not become PM.
Corbyn will be 73 near as damn it by the time of the next scheduled election, I can't see him remaining Labour leader that long.

Let it go for now.

There are enough reasons other than the skeletons in his closet that will stop him from being PM. We don't have to keep dragging the past up. Most will remember.

Look at the fuck up the Tories are in the middle of. Any normal Labour leader would be miles ahead in the polls by now. I can't believe the mess that the party I have voted for all my life has got into. He wants to oppose May. But he knows if he does he will be going against what most Labour voters want. He knows if he pushes it he will lose the job of Labour leader. So we are left with a Labour leader giving the Tory leader an easy time when nobody likes what she is doing. Both remain and leave are against her. The whole thing is a joke.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Hardly. To agree to a set of rules, say you are going to break them unilaterally and when the other partners says you cannot unilaterally break the rules of the agreement, then say that the people unpholding the rules you signed up to are dictating to you, is madness. Try that form of negotiating when the bank manager complains that you have exceeded your overdraft limit. How dare he complain the little dictator, I will overdraw the limit if I want to, I am a free man!

I completely agree that we need to follow the rules and agree how to leave to get the maximum benefit for our country and I don’t expect the Eu to do anything different

 

[Ian1779]

It isn't about them clinging to power, it is about ensuring an IRA supporter does not become PM.

As opposed to the Saudi Arabia weapons provider. If you are going to get all moralistic, at least have the consistency to look at your own.

 

[Astute]

All of us is the dream but I take the cynicism and distrust of someone not British doing it. All power corrupts someone once said

I would love the EU project to work.

The problem is that the leaders of the countries of the EU don't have enough of a say in matters. These decisions are made by a bunch of mainly nobodies that earn much more money than the leaders of such said countries. They are on a gravy train and want to keep their seat. They don't care about the citizens of the EU. They care about themselves. They don't seem to want harmony. They want what is best for them.

Just like when we wanted to talk about what our membership entails. We got a straight no. How about it going to the leaders of the countries in the EU? We put all the money in but can only discuss what we are told we can.

 

[Astute]

I completely agree that we need to follow the rules and agree how to leave to get the maximum benefit for our country and I don’t expect the Eu to do anything different

But we are not allowed to leave in any way that will benefit us.

We didn't vote to join the EU. It became the EU. We had no choice. Now we have taken the choice to leave they are putting things in place to stop us from leaving. That is what the backstop looks all about. If we accept the backstop we agree to staying in the EU until they say we can leave. If they never give us permission to leave we have no choice but to stay in the EU.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It is unlikely that all vetoes will be given up in the foreseeable future.

Apart from ours...

 

[martcov]

P

But we are not allowed to leave in any way that will benefit us.

We didn't vote to join the EU. It became the EU. We had no choice. Now we have taken the choice to leave they are putting things in place to stop us from leaving. That is what the backstop looks all about. If we accept the backstop we agree to staying in the EU until they say we can leave. If they never give us permission to leave we have no choice but to stay in the EU.

We can leave and it won’t be to our benefit. It was to our benefit to join and accept all evolution to the EU. We were behind the evolution into the EU. Did you expect leaving an organisation which we helped to create would put us in a better position than being a member? We could crash out tomorrow. Off we go, no one is stopping us.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

no one is stopping us.

...apart from the hardcore Brexiteer MPs, who will not support their own government's deal to leave...

 

[Grendel]

...apart from the hardcore Brexiteer MPs, who will not support their own government's deal to leave...

It’s a remain deal that’s why

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I would love the EU project to work.

The problem is that the leaders of the countries of the EU don't have enough of a say in matters. These decisions are made by a bunch of mainly nobodies that earn much more money than the leaders of such said countries. They are on a gravy train and want to keep their seat. They don't care about the citizens of the EU. They care about themselves. They don't seem to want harmony. They want what is best for them.

Just like when we wanted to talk about what our membership entails. We got a straight no. How about it going to the leaders of the countries in the EU? We put all the money in but can only discuss what we are told we can.

I would love it to work too

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

But we are not allowed to leave in any way that will benefit us.

We didn't vote to join the EU. It became the EU. We had no choice. Now we have taken the choice to leave they are putting things in place to stop us from leaving. That is what the backstop looks all about. If we accept the backstop we agree to staying in the EU until they say we can leave. If they never give us permission to leave we have no choice but to stay in the EU.

We can but we are hugely naive to think that 27 other countries are not going to do the same

 

[martcov]

I would love the EU project to work.

The problem is that the leaders of the countries of the EU don't have enough of a say in matters. These decisions are made by a bunch of mainly nobodies that earn much more money than the leaders of such said countries. They are on a gravy train and want to keep their seat. They don't care about the citizens of the EU. They care about themselves. They don't seem to want harmony. They want what is best for them.

Just like when we wanted to talk about what our membership entails. We got a straight no. How about it going to the leaders of the countries in the EU? We put all the money in but can only discuss what we are told we can.

What do you think the EU Council is? The leaders of the countries tell the Commission what it has to do. The Commission won’t get far without consent from the Council.

We got a knock back on FOM because 27 leaders are happy with it and the UK isn’t. No one in the EU wants to change it and it is one of the 4 pillars of the single market.

The EU Council is the most important body in the EU. The leaders care about their people as much as our leaders do. You can say ours don’t, but that’s debatable. What makes you think that they are not interested in their countries‘ fortunes? Some are corrupt, some are fanatics, but you cannot class then all as exactly the same.

You just make Faragisms and have no evidence for it. If you have a better system of governance ä, please suggest it.

 

[martcov]

It’s a remain deal that’s why

The Brexit deal is out means out. That doesn’t have much support in parliament or in the country. Any deal will have to include compromise in order to get through.