The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (96 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Got a link to that?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
26% of junior doctors currently working in the NHS won't be eligible to work here under this proposal so it needs some tweaking.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So a transition period of what you will need to come to the UK after Brexit means I am stating there will be a deal with the EU?
Can you explain yourself for once?
Astute
Well-Known Member
On TV right this second. On BBC news.
No cap on skilled workers but will try to keep the numbers below 100k a year. To be implemented in 2021.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
'Horrified' firms urge action on Brexit
Interesting watching the news last night with two smaller firms already going ahead and making arrangements for a no deal brexit. One was a U.K. clothing company based in Bristol who have took the decision to open a distribution centre in Romania and an office in Germany to guarantee access to the EU. The owner stated that deal or no deal the jobs were now lost to the U.K. and won’t be coming back. All because of two and a half years of failure of government.
Interesting watching the news last night with two smaller firms already going ahead and making arrangements for a no deal brexit. One was a U.K. clothing company based in Bristol who have took the decision to open a distribution centre in Romania and an office in Germany to guarantee access to the EU. The owner stated that deal or no deal the jobs were now lost to the U.K. and won’t be coming back. All because of two and a half years of failure of government.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If that’s the case then that is good news, I was taking it from here
Migrants to be selected by talent, not origin
I’d be all for the 30K limit if those professions would get a pay boost, but I can’t see that.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yes they should get paid more. Only an idiot would say differently.
Skills based immigration to be introduced.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
good debate about this on 5live earlier.
26% of junior doctors wouldn't be eligible to work here under this scheme.
Were also talking about skilled jobs such as architects and engineers where qualified people come from Europe with poor English and work in low skilled jobs for a year or two to brush up on their English before moving into their chosen profession so there's a lot to consider.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Still see it as a shitfest that is going to become another shitfest.
The problem with what you have stated is if they have to have a job to come to. They would need a skilled job first if this is the case.
I hope they have people looking into this that know what they are talking about for once.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
one fella also saying that he owns care homes, 90% of his workforce are from the EU and wages have risen 30% in the last 5 years, (which seems a bit high to be honest), but he was saying he still isn't able to recruit many UK born workers.
With the aging population the care industry is going to need to up it's recruitment in the next few years and with a lot of care been paid for out of the public purse increases in wages increases public spend so it feeds back in to the the aging population conundrum.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Which is what I meant it becoming a bigger shitfest. It seems that the skilled workers won't include carers. I could be wrong but don't think I am.
Too many big decisions being made by too many people who don't have a clue about what they are talking about. And nobody high up enough knows what is going on and has the balls to do something about it. They just prefer petty arguing.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
obviously we're just seeing the headlines of this proposal but it's a lot more nuanced than that and hopefully the things we've mentioned have been considered in the finer details.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
That’s the point it’s skills based and people don’t think care workers have any and there’s no way the salaries will be £30k so the elephant in the room is that they will have to come form the uk population
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
They can but it’s more a state of mind and ignorance of the issues and why the economy set up as it is only functions with non skilled workers supporting us and this perception that they are only a drain on society is nonsense. As is ‘that there aren’t problems with significant numbers of extra people and families’ in our country and they need health services and schools. This is a real issue that gets politicised and should not be political. Who is going to look after our old people and who is going to pick our food?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Yeah my girlfriend was here for a year to get her English up to the required standard. Under the current system she wouldn’t have been let into the country, nothing prepares you language wise for entering a foreign workplace like spending an extended period of time in the country.
One concern for me is that they open it up to countries where the wages are lower, pushing down wages across sectors. This has been a key complaint of Leavers, we are going to be looking to bring in people from countries where pay is even lower
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Fully agree with this and carers will be counted as unskilled, surely. It’s all been done for political reasons, IMO
Not only that, but in Astute‘s link we are now going to close a loophole whereby agency staff can work for less money than permanent staff. Things like that wind up people in low paid jobs ( rightly so ). That is not the fault of EU citizens or the EU. We could have and should closed such loopholes ages ago.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
No real political will to close the loophole
No. Blame it on the EU.
Astute
Well-Known Member
The Tories have said they have got a target of 100k or less for nett immigration. Something big will have to give as the total from outside the EU is bigger. Either that or they hope a lot will leave the UK.
It all seems to be figures they won't be able to keep to. And to me it is just to keep the leavers happy. Well I have news for you May. Nobody is happy. You can't keep fudging the subject and hoping for the best. We are running out of time. And feeling is so high that I can't see most just giving in.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Remember the link I posted a day or two ago? Macron got the EU to tentatively agree to being able to pay less to workers coming from countries that have a lower rate of pay.
No. I know that that it is exactly the opposite to what is happening in the EU. They are trying to plug loopholes that allow people from the east to work in Germany and pay their stoppages in their own country which makes them cheaper than German staff. The idea is to stop people undercutting the minimum wage. No way is what you claim happening. Show us the quote.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Every Tory you say?
It's clear that a no deal Brexit is a red line issue for Tory MPs who support Remain. Boles and Soubry are senior MPs and seem to be mobilising other Tory MPs to vote against the Government in the event the Government loses its Parliamentary vote and a no deal Brexit seems likely. So no, it's not too far-fetched to suggest a handful of Tory MPs would vote against the Government. It's as if you forgot that the ERG is the only faction within the Tory Party.
I'll trust my own judgement, thanks.
Senior Tory suggests he would vote with Labour in no confidence motion to block no-deal Brexit – Politics live
The thing is the targets are artificial anyway. Just thought up to counter UKIP which was stealing votes. They sound good to people who don’t like FOM or foreigners. The 90 days rule for staying without an income already exists for EU citizens. EU citizens provide a range of skills from unskilled to highly skilled. Which is what we need. FOM is reciprocal, which means we should talk net figures to be more accurate. If 3 million EU migrants are in the UK we should take off the nearly 1,5 Mill ion British passport holders in the EU. EU Migration is falling and will probably continue to fall as EU eastern countries wage levels rise. The advantage of EU migration is the mix and reciprocality. It is crazy that we are now setting thresholds to allow people who earn over 30000 in. We need young trainee scientists and doctors who haven’t yet reached this wage level to develop in the UK. They will end up in Berlin or Paris. Scrap this crap and remain in the EU with stricter controls of the 90 day rule and of non EU immigration. And... do the obvious: crack down on the gig economy where people are not really self employed and stop agencies bending the system to undercut permanent staff wages, There are enough ways to create a fairer job market without taking people‘s rights to FOM off them and screwing the country.
I'm sure if some of these loopholes were taken seriously and addressed (or comfort provided) in 2016 we wouldn't be in this mess ! I heard a German MEP on the radio the other day who was desperate for the UK to remain and basically said the EU needed to shoulder a significant portion of the blame as they ignored concerns and yet now they are finally seeking to address some of these issues that were raised 2-3 years ago. He also said the French had it in for us !!!
These idiot MPs have never negotiated anything in their lives obviously (Soubry is an absolute waste of space - I'm sure everyone is fully aware her constituency voted leave). Maybe if more had just kept quiet, much like a majority of the individual EU countries have done (their solidarity has been impressive, I bet many a time they would've liked to have rebuked Barnier but have left him to it), we might have reached a satisfactory agreement by now. The constant threats of a second referendum, vote government down etc etc, hasn't helped one bit and has allowed the EU stay strong, knowing eventually our weak MPs would cave in.
Unfortunately, their behaviour and the governments incompetence (whilst having their hands tied behind their backs to some extent) has backed everyone into a corner to the point where we might all end up with a No Deal mess that everyone on all sides (barring a few brexit nutters) have been desperate to avoid.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
In fairness, I can't see another outcome of Brexit than a Norway-style deal or a 'no deal' Brexit. The former option relegates our status to that of a vassal state to the EU and the latter is a chaotic mess that no one voted for. The EU's price for access into the Single Market is adherence to most of its rules and regulations so it's hard to imagine any alternative deal to the one tabled by May or the option of no deal. Personally, the Leave campaign sold the public a host of fantasies that Government simply weren't able to deliver. Whilst the Remain was overly negative, in my view, it was at least grounded in reality.
I'm not Soubry's greatest fan, but it would be wildly irresponsible for MPs to A) vote for a deal they know to be against the national interest or B) to let the country leave the EU without a deal. At the very least, the decision should be deferred to the electorate, one way or the other.
Yes, but they are UK loopholes and we have had successive governments who have let things run. They probably thought that was ok as the economy was recovering and we had nearly full employment. If there had been massive unemployment the government may have acted differently, but the economy needed more workers, paqrticulary in places like Scotland with a relatively small and aging working population.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Is a Norway-style deal even an option, they don't seem very keen on letting us in!
Astute
Well-Known Member
Grounded in reality?
It was based on lies and misinformation. Just like leave was.
Or did I miss something where it was truthful and correct?
Ive said before, barring the backstop, Mays withdrawal agreement is better than the alternative available options, what the ultimate agreement would be though, who knows. The lack of will to find and/or get to a solution is unbelievable ie the EU rightly cant allow the backstop to be unilaterally ended by the UK as it might leave no option other than a hard border, the UK are concerned that the EU will find excuses to lock us in forever (unlikely from what Ive heard but still a genuine concern) so we should have proposed that a significant proportion of the £38bn is payable on the reaching of a trade agreement and/or exit from the backstop, to incentivise a sensible conclusion. Like with any negotiation there needs to be potential benefit and pain on both sides of the argument.
Regarding Soubry, you miss the point, as does she. By all means tell the PM (and her constituency individually if she feels necessary) in private of her concerns and that she will be left with no choice by to resign the whip if they proceed with a "no deal", however, doing all this in public, IN THE MIDDLE OF A NEGOTIATION, is weakening our position and actually making reaching an agreement harder and/or less likely. Most MPs on both sides of the argument appear to prefer to posture in public, rather than actually work to get a deal done.
Agree with the underlying problem Mart, but the point for me, like many, was for the government to demonstrate an element of control (actual or even perceived) over some of the issues and concerns. The EU has woken up to the fact as certain countries will be suffering from similar issues and their public are raising similar concerns.