The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (96 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The only ‘disingenuous and dishonest’ people are those like you who’ve spent 2½ years whining about the result of a democratic referendum; inventing hard and soft versions of Brexit and claiming people didn’t understand what they were voting for.

Now you call for a second referendum because 'it’s in the interests of democracy' when like the Liberal Undemocrats, all you really want to do is overturn the result before it’s even been honoured.

Chances are you didn’t even bother to vote.

Still, Parliament is stuffed with people like you so you may yet get your way.

Government forecasts can hardly be called 'inventions', including forecasts made by this Government who is negotiating this Brexit deal. That's just silly talk.

A second referendum is actually in your interests. If you voted for Brexit, why do you want a Remainer negotiating the withdrawal deal and wouldn't you want a Brexiteer like BoJo or Rees-Mogg to take the helm if the Government was brought down by its unsatisfactory Brexit deal? You can be sure a second commitment to Brexit would put the issue to bed for a generation as opposed to a decade or two -- you bet if Brexit is anywhere near as bad as the forecasts, there will be an appetite for another referendum pretty quickly.

Our votes are weighted exactly the same, my Remain vote would be counterbalanced by your Leave vote. My support for a second referendum isn't based on wanting to overturn the decision (although I would vote to Remain), it's so to break the deadlock that currently exists in Parliament so this country doesn't sleepwalk into a bad deal (Rees-Mogg said staying in the EU is better than to become its vassal) or a no deal, which I believe is bad for the country. If you think either of those scenarios is for the best, that's your prerogative.

Brexiteers should see the opportunities a second referendum actually presents them, it's not all doom and gloom. They won one referendum, to win two isn't far-fetched at all.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem is that whatever happens and whatever we end up with there will be millions of people unhappy.

Any sort of deal that keeps us tied to the EU rules and regulations like open borders will be disliked. Just like leaving without a deal. So I can see unrest whatever happens.

Thanks Cameron. You excelled yourself here.

With respect although no work permit is needed we already had the ability to send back EU migrants after a certain time. Plus most immigration comes from outside the EU anyway and migrants are net contributors to the economy.

Think people wanting immigration slashed will be disappointed.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I don't know how any person can take anyone who wants a second referendum seriously.

I'm still yet to hear any genuinely good arguments for it. It's just more screaming babies I'm afraid.

You're entitled to that opinion, but it seems more and more people think it's a good idea -- 54% of those polled would be 'screaming babies', in fact, some of them would've voted leave in 2016. 64% of those polled favours Remain if May's deal is voted down in Parliament, and there's definitely Brexiteers who would've flipped sides in that scenario.

As I mentioned in other posts, another win for Leave would do wonders for the Brexiteers in Parliament and would almost probably oust May and elevate someone like Rees-Mogg or BoJo to PM.

Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

See Gary Linekar is coming out with some interesting stuff today.

He says that due to Brexit it will be harder for Premier League clubs to import foreign players.

This is a bad thing, how?

Well for one English players cost ridiculous sums by comparison as Bournemouth spooging £19m on Solanke shows.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

With respect although no work permit is needed we already had the ability to send back EU migrants after a certain time. Plus most immigration comes from outside the EU anyway and migrants are net contributors to the economy.

Think people wanting immigration slashed will be disappointed.

Agreed. About two-thirds (2/3) of immigration is non-EU anyway, and most of EU immigration is more professional European economic migrants that benefit the economy as opposed to hordes of Eastern European unskilled workers flooding the labour market.

Even Nigel Farage explicitly said in many interviews, TV appearances (and so on...) that he isn't against high levels of immigration, but, that it should be controlled. A lot of right-wing voters on the Tory right and/or UKIP are just set on arbitrarily reducing immigration to 'x' level and because the targets are arbitrary, they are doomed to fail, which they have done so far.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Many who voted remain and want to remain are against another referendum. You even see some on here state so.

You could look at it another way. This so called people's vote. Didn't people vote last time?

Many are of the thought that the vote should stand as it was what was voted for.

What would happen next if the vote was 52% against 48% again but this time for remain? Would it become best of 3? Would it be the result to keep as it is what you want? Should we keep voting until there is a large majority in favour of one side? If it was 52% v 48% in favour of leave again should we have yet another one as only about 2m more wanted leave over remain still?

And as you have said a referendum is democratic. Are you happy to go against a democratic vote?

To me another referendum would cause more problems than it would solve.

I'm going to Germany a few weeks after Brexit. Would be nice to know which queue to go in at the airport...perhaps just make 52% go in the non EU line.

 

[Grendel]

You're entitled to that opinion, but it seems more and more people think it's a good idea -- 54% of those polled would be 'screaming babies', in fact, some of them would've voted leave in 2016. 64% of those polled favours Remain if May's deal is voted down in Parliament, and there's definitely Brexiteers who would've flipped sides in that scenario.

As I mentioned in other posts, another win for Leave would do wonders for the Brexiteers in Parliament and would almost probably oust May and elevate someone like Rees-Mogg or BoJo to PM.

Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave

So democracy is now based on opinion polls. Awesome.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Agreed. About two-thirds (2/3) of immigration is non-EU anyway, and most of EU immigration is more professional European economic migrants that benefit the economy as opposed to hordes of Eastern European unskilled workers flooding the labour market.

Even Nigel Farage explicitly said in many interviews, TV appearances (and so on...) that he isn't against high levels of immigration, but, that it should be controlled. A lot of right-wing voters on the Tory right and/or UKIP are just set on arbitrarily reducing immigration to 'x' level and because the targets are arbitrary, they are doomed to fail, which they have done so far.

The Tories either don't want or are unable to reduce it to those levels. I suspect it's the former simply because our underfunded education system isn't producing enough skilled workers of our own.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So democracy is now based on opinion polls. Awesome.

Be honest G you only oppose it because you're hot for Brexit in the same way people like Caroline Lucas just want to stop it.

 

[Grendel]

The Tories either don't want or are unable to reduce it to those levels. I suspect it's the former simply because our underfunded education system isn't producing enough skilled workers of our own.

Our education system is grotesquely over funded

 

[RegTheDonk]

The clear democratic process for such an occurance is for a party to fight a general election on the mandate of a second referendum - not just offer one

Agreed. And believe the Libs had a remin/2nd vote line in their manifesto.....and got battered.

 

[Grendel]

Be honest G you only oppose it because you're hot for Brexit in the same way people like Caroline Lucas just want to stop it.

It’s actually not true. You can’t have continual referendums - where does it stop? Another - a penalty shoot out - an Ant and Dec special to phone a friend? It’s a generational choice. If there was another then yet another would follow.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Our education system is grotesquely over funded

Lol last year we didn't have enough exercise books to go around and this year my other half's school had no books for the first 3 weeks.

 

[skybluetony176]

Our education system is grotesquely over funded

Compared to who?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s actually not true. You can’t have continual referendums - where does it stop? Another - a penalty shoot out - an Ant and Dec special to phone a friend? It’s a generational choice. If there was another then yet another would follow.

The consequences of leaving and staying are now crystal clear though-they were not in 2016. Don't get me wrong I want it fucking over and done with but there is a legitimate argument to be had for one.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Compared to who?

Somalia

 

[skybluetony176]

Lol last year we didn't have enough exercise books to go around and this year my other half's school had no books for the first 3 weeks.

We fall behind most developed countries in terms of spending as a percentage of GDP and then we have the extra complication of a wasteful, incompetent government spending it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We fall behind most developed countries in terms of spending as a percentage of GDP and then we have the extra complication of a wasteful, incompetent government spending it.

I can only think of the USA as a developed country with even worse regard for state education.

 

[skybluetony176]

Somalia

You’ve got me there

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So democracy is now based on opinion polls. Awesome.

Old ground and you have taken the argument out of context.

The larger issue at hand here is that the Government is deadlocked and the premise of a second referendum is to break that deadlock by deferring the question back to the electorate.

You clearly want Brexit at any cost, bad deal, or no deal, you seemingly don't care. That's your opinion, and of course, you're entitled to that opinion. But, you lose credibility when arguing that you're interested in the 'will of the people', and then disregard the growing appetite for another referendum, which is measured by polls. I'm sure you would happy to use opinion polls to your advantage if polls showed favouring Brexit.

Even if Brexit goes ahead in 2019, anyone worth their salt knows the issue of EU membership isn't dead in the water, especially if it goes badly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You’ve got me there

We can learn a lot from them. Why negotiate free trade agreements when we can let pirates do the work

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Old ground and you have taken the argument out of context.

The larger issue at hand here is that the Government is deadlocked and the premise of a second referendum is to break that deadlock by deferring the question back to the electorate.

You clearly want Brexit at any cost, bad deal, or no deal, you seemingly don't care. That's your opinion, and of course, you're entitled to that opinion. But, you lose credibility when arguing that you're interested in the 'will of the people', and then disregard the growing appetite for another referendum, which is measured by polls. I'm sure you would happy to use opinion polls to your advantage if polls showed favouring Brexit.

Even if Brexit goes ahead in 2019, anyone worth their salt knows the issue of EU membership isn't dead in the water, especially if it goes badly.

If Leave won again Caroline Lucas and Vince Cable wouldn't drop it

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If Leave won again Caroline Lucas and Vince Cable wouldn't drop it

You’re right, they wouldn’t, but they occupy a small % of the vote, and an even smaller % of parliamentary seats. Whereas the Conservative and Labour would accept it completely to avoid alienating its core support.

So, in that event, the Lib Dems/Greens could create a niche for applying for EU membership and have electoral success to change the national conversation. I suppose it would be a progressive reverse of the rise of UKIP. A second referendum win for Leave and a withdrawal from the EU would end UKIP as a political entity. Likewise, if Brexit is reversed, they could become resurgent again.

 

[Grendel]

Lol last year we didn't have enough exercise books to go around and this year my other half's school had no books for the first 3 weeks.

That’s because of the decision to extend education to 22 under the failed policies of Blair and Brown. The university system is having to funded at absurd levels by the tax payer

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That’s because of the decision to extend education to 22 under the failed policies of Blair and Brown. The university system is having to funded at absurd levels by the tax payer

That only happens because the government insisted on hiking tuition fees ever higher knowing that there will be fewer people paying back the loans. I'm paying back £35k at about £30/month, you do the maths. Not as though you or your generation were ever charged either and were in fact paid to go

 

[Grendel]

That only happens because the government insisted on hiking tuition fees ever higher knowing that there will be fewer people paying back the loans. I'm paying back £35k at about £30/month, you do the maths. Not as though you or your generation were ever charged either and were in fact paid to go

We were paid to go as we were only 20% of the population - that’s the way it should be - it’s inevitable if you open up the system to all then it’s dumbed down

Even the government admit 50% of the debt is a burden to tax payers - which means it’s going to be 75% - so you do the maths on that

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

We were paid to go as we were only 20% of the population - that’s the way it should be - it’s inevitable if you open up the system to all then it’s dumbed down

Even the government admit 50% of the debt is a burden to tax payers - which means it’s going to be 75% - so you do the maths on that

I would find it fairer to pay a graduate tax. Don't think I should have been charged £9k for teacher training mind you.

 

[Grendel]

I would find it fairer to pay a graduate tax. Don't think I should have been charged £9k for teacher training mind you.

Again hardly anyone pays it back and those that do are paying for the dumbasses who went but can never pay it back

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again hardly anyone pays it back and those that do are paying for the dumbasses who went but can never pay it back

Even if I were earning £100k it would still take ages

 

[Astute]

Of course it isn’t the same. Remain is the status quo and remainers aren’t blaming the wrong people for their ills or when their fantasy plans don’t come to fruition.


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So remainers won't blame everyone else?

What a one sided view you have.

 

[Astute]

Here we go again...

Tell me how a referendum is undemocratic? You can't, unless you want to make an argument against referendums as a whole. Which, if you did, undermines your premise that the 2016 referendum is the be all and end all.

The issue of EU membership won't go away whether or not we leave. If we go through with Brexit, and it goes badly, people will campaign to rejoin the EU, likewise, if we end up remaining, UKIP (or successor party) will certainly be back as a political force at some point. One way or the other, the issue won't go away. Either way, there will be another referendum, if not this year, in 2029, 2039? Who knows.

I'm happy to go against a democratic vote if it is with another, democratic vote. The only rational reason you're opposed to that proposal is that you're afraid Leave would lose. A second referendum could actually do wonders for Brexiteers if Leave won, May would probably be ousted and a more prominent Brexiteer could either renegotiate a deal (v unlikely) or leave without a no-deal.

You're against May's deal, as is most of the Brexiteers, why is a chance to oust May that bad? Surely this is better than sleeping into a 'bad deal'.



You're presenting the issue of a second referendum as a partisan issue between political parties. That's not the case because the opposition to May's deal is coming from within her own party and the opposition. A general election wouldn't, in fact, couldn't be contested alongside the issue of a second referendum. This is because of Remain and Leave is a cross-cutting issue along both major political parties.

It's also a flawed argument to use the 2017 general election result as supporting Brexit in itself. The political context has changed and the issue of Brexit shouldn't be politicised along party lines, because both major parties have significant amounts of Remain and Leave voters. It's unlikely a party would win a parliamentary majority if it alienated one half of the electorate.

You certainly cannot argue there is a mandate for a no-deal Brexit.



There are several political landmines for both major parties. For the Conservatives, dissatisfaction with May's deal is helping a UKIP resurgence (polling about 6% from 1.5% last election), Tories who voted Remain will be tempted by the Lib Dems and finally, if Brexit puts the economy into recession, that'll probably destroy the Conservative's economic credibility even more than 2008 damaged Labour's economic credibility. As for Labour, prematurely supporting a second referendum will alienate Labour's supporters who voted Leave in working-class strongholds. If Labour backs May's deal, their support will alienate its cosmopolitan supporters to the point of desertion to the Lib Dems and its members strongly support a second referendum. Also, any second referendum bill will need cross-party support, and there is a good chance a % of Tory MPs who'd vote against the Government to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

To say Brexit is a political landmine is an understatement, to say the least. That is why both Conservative and Labour are navigating the climate very, very carefully because this has the potential to ruin a major political party for a generation.

So it is OK to go against a democratic vote with another democratic vote?

 

[Astute]

With respect although no work permit is needed we already had the ability to send back EU migrants after a certain time. Plus most immigration comes from outside the EU anyway and migrants are net contributors to the economy.

Think people wanting immigration slashed will be disappointed.

How many EU immigrants get sent back by any country in the EU?

All they have to do is mention that it would be against their human rights. They struggle to even remove illegal immigrants. But this same line is trotted out so frequently you would imagine that it is true.

 

[Astute]

The consequences of leaving and staying are now crystal clear though-they were not in 2016. Don't get me wrong I want it fucking over and done with but there is a legitimate argument to be had for one.

The consequences of leaving are not clear unless you are someone who has the most to lose from us leaving or are just guessing. Then it is armageddon .

 

[djr8369]

So remainers won't blame everyone else?

What a one sided view you have.

No they won’t blame everyone else. They’ll blame Brexiters for Brexit.

Who else should they blame? The Brexiters own this so don’t try and paint it as me being “one sided”. How utterly ridiculous.


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[Astute]

No they won’t blame everyone else. They’ll blame Brexiters for Brexit.

Who else should they blame? The Brexiters own this so don’t try and paint it as me being “one sided”. How utterly ridiculous.

Going around in circles again I see.

Brexit is the fault of Cameron. You can blame who you like. And those who agreed with you will love you saying it is the fault of those who voted leave. But it isn't true.

Or would you like to explain how Cameron isn't at fault. And remember Cameron was a remainer.

If course you won't. Because you have stated a false claim and will say anything to back it up.