The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

[djr8369]

Going around in circles again I see.

Brexit is the fault of Cameron. You can blame who you like. And those who agreed with you will love you saying it is the fault of those who voted leave. But it isn't true.

Or would you like to explain how Cameron isn't at fault.

If course you won't. Because you have stated a false claim and will say anything to back it up.

What pressures caused Cameron to have to let there be a referendum and how did those pressures then cause leave to win it?

Cameron just facilitated it. Any other Tory PM could have been in the seat at the time. He is not the root cause.



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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

The post next to it is drivel from someone who wants to put a stopwatch on democracy.

Says the person stamping and screaming for two years because they didn't win the vote?

Hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[Astute]

What pressures caused Cameron to have to let there be a referendum and how did those pressures then cause leave to win it?

Cameron just facilitated it. Any other Tory PM could have been in the seat at the time. He is not the root cause.



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There was no pressure on Cameron. He thought the plebs would vote remain.

And I was right. You are going to come out with excuses to try and back up your comments.

You are preaching to someone who would prefer to stay in the EU. My wife right at this minute is looking for a house to buy in France. But I look at the faults of each side. I don't look to blame the voters.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There was no pressure on Cameron. He thought the plebs would vote remain.

And I was right. You are going to come out with excuses to try and back up your comments.

You are preaching to someone who would prefer to stay in the EU. My wife right at this minute is looking for a house to buy in France. But I look at the faults of each side. I don't look to blame the voters.

Yep Cameron and Osborne were very wrong

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

You're entitled to that opinion, but it seems more and more people think it's a good idea -- 54% of those polled would be 'screaming babies', in fact, some of them would've voted leave in 2016. 64% of those polled favours Remain if May's deal is voted down in Parliament, and there's definitely Brexiteers who would've flipped sides in that scenario.

As I mentioned in other posts, another win for Leave would do wonders for the Brexiteers in Parliament and would almost probably oust May and elevate someone like Rees-Mogg or BoJo to PM.

Brexit poll shows voters back second referendum as Remain takes big lead over Leave

Exactly like the: 'if you're not sure, just vote remain. You can always vote to leave next time'.

It's total nonsense and the public are smarter than you think when it comes to believing polls (remember last time). Certainly anything published by The Independent can hardly be trusted either really can it? It's just constant remainer rhetoric.

I literally haven't met a single leave voter who has changed their mind. A select bunch or remainers trying to call for a second vote just looks nothing other than childish.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Exactly like the: 'if you're not sure, just vote remain. You can always vote to leave next time'.

It's total nonsense and the public are smarter than you think when it comes to believing polls (remember last time). Certainly anything published by The Independent can hardly be trusted either really can it? It's just constant remainer rhetoric.

I literally haven't met a single leave voter who has changed their mind. A select bunch or remainers trying to call for a second vote just looks nothing other than childish.

No deal is a shit storm no one has the guts to move so what’s your solution for breaking the impasse ??

 

[Astute]

No deal is a shit storm no one has the guts to move so what’s your solution for breaking the impasse ??

Many who voted remain and want to remain are against another referendum. You even see some on here state so.

You could look at it another way. This so called people's vote. Didn't people vote last time?

Many are of the thought that the vote should stand as it was what was voted for.

What would happen next if the vote was 52% against 48% again but this time for remain? Would it become best of 3? Would it be the result to keep as it is what you want? Should we keep voting until there is a large majority in favour of one side? If it was 52% v 48% in favour of leave again should we have yet another one as only about 2m more wanted leave over remain still?

And as you have said a referendum is democratic. Are you happy to go against a democratic vote?

To me another referendum would cause more problems than it would solve.

Think my previous post says it all. And those why try to pull most of my posts apart never made a single comment about this post. So there must be some truth in it that can't be denied in any way.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Well for one English players cost ridiculous sums by comparison as Bournemouth spooging £19m on Solanke shows.

Seriously?

How can anyone have a honest an open debate when people are this biased.

Just for once, please please please can we have some common sense. Brexit might be bad for some things, but having to rely on English players in the premier league is really not one of them.

In 800 pages how many times has a remainer criticised the EU? Almost never.

It's extremely frustrating.

 

[Astute]

Seriously?

How can anyone have a honest an open debate when people are this biased.

Just for once, please please please can we have some common sense. Brexit might be bad for some things, but having to rely on English players in the premier league is really not one of them.

In 800 pages how many times has a remainer criticised the EU? Almost never.

It's extremely frustrating.

Most have defended the EU until forced into a corner.

I am a remainer although not as strong as before. And I am frequently accused of being a leaver as I have a go at all sides. And this includes the EU. But those who accuse me of so always ignore me having a go at those they constantly have a go at.

This is the biggest joke on this thread. Many don't want a debate. They want to put their side across and stop the other side being put forward.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I'm going to Germany a few weeks after Brexit. Would be nice to know which queue to go in at the airport...perhaps just make 52% go in the non EU line.

Jokes on you.

It's a much quicker line nearly every time anyway.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

No deal is a shit storm no one has the guts to move so what’s your solution for breaking the impasse ??

There's only 'impasse' because remainers won't stop making noise.

My solution would be to carry on as normal and execute a no deal, but I'm not in charge...

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Think my previous post says it all. And those why try to pull most of my posts apart never made a single comment about this post. So there must be some truth in it that can't be denied in any way.

Some of the more reasoned posters on here who wanted to stay in have come out and said they don't support a second referendum. I know Clint was one but can't remember the names of the others.

Generally though the ones that do want another vote can't really pick your post apart because what you say is generally true.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So it is OK to go against a democratic vote with another democratic vote?

Yes, 100%.

I would not be in favour of reversing Brexit without the public’s consent.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes, 100%.

I would not be in favour of reversing Brexit without the public’s consent.

That is the point. If brexit gets cancelled without a referendum then that really wouldn’t be democracy.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

There's only 'impasse' because remainers won't stop making noise.

My solution would be to carry on as normal and execute a no deal, but I'm not in charge...

Actually, it’s the Brexit wing of the party that has been the staunchest critics of May’s deal.

I respect your opinion that we should leave without a deal. But, no one voted for a no-deal Brexit in 2016, even the staunchest of Brexiteers have to acknowledge that.

Imagine if Brexit goes badly in the initial 15-20 years. It might not, but the likelihood is that there will be a medium-term downturn in the economy. If the public doesn’t get a final say on Brexit, you get there will be calls for another referendum. If Leave wins in 2019, then the demand for yet another referendum is reduced significantly.

Another referendum is in everyone’s best interests.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That is the point. If brexit gets cancelled without a referendum then that really wouldn’t be democracy.

I thought my posts made it clear where I stand on the issue of a second referendum. But, I’m not going to leave my words open to interpretation.

 

[clint van damme]

Going around in circles again I see.

Brexit is the fault of Cameron. You can blame who you like. And those who agreed with you will love you saying it is the fault of those who voted leave. But it isn't true.

Or would you like to explain how Cameron isn't at fault. And remember Cameron was a remainer.

If course you won't. Because you have stated a false claim and will say anything to back it up.

said it so many times on this thread, if Brexit goes tits up it's the fault of the people who voted for it and if it's a success, they take the plaudits.
You can't blame people who didn't vote for something if it turns out to be a failure. It's a simple concept.

 

[clint van damme]

So it is OK to go against a democratic vote with another democratic vote?

it just doesn't add up to me.
As bad as I think no deal will be I think a second vote would cause divisions that will take generations to heal.

 

[Astute]

said it so many times on this thread, if Brexit goes tits up it's the fault of the people who voted for it and if it's a success, they take the plaudits.
You can't blame people who didn't vote for something if it turns out to be a failure. It's a simple concept.

Are you a Tory voter?

It is the fault of Cameron. If he didn't promise a referendum if we voted the Tories in there wouldn't have been a referendum.

If we go on your way of thinking.....blame those who voted no matter what lies they were told.....then how about blaming those who voted Tory in the GE that meant there was going to be a referendum?

How many times have you said the electorate were lied to? How many people who blame those who voted leave constantly have or had a go at the lies before the referendum? Yet now it is supposed to be the fault of those who believed the lies.

And here is another Brexit problem. Blame whoever it is that goes with the point being made at the time.

The person mainly at fault was Cameron. He is a Tory. He us a remainer. And anyone being truthful will agree.

 

[clint van damme]

Are you a Tory voter?

It is the fault of Cameron. If he didn't promise a referendum if we voted the Tories in there wouldn't have been a referendum.

If we go on your way of thinking.....blame those who voted no matter what lies they were told.....then how about blaming those who voted Tory in the GE that meant there was going to be a referendum?

How many times have you said the electorate were lied to? How many people who blame those who voted leave constantly have or had a go at the lies before the referendum? Yet now it is supposed to be the fault of those who believed the lies.

And here is another Brexit problem. Blame whoever it is that goes with the point being made at the time.

The person mainly at fault was Cameron. He is a Tory. He us a remainer. And anyone being truthful will agree.

Yeah, I'm a tory voter!!
People voted for Cameron in the GE when a referendum was one of his policies, (about the only thing in his manifesto he delivered on).
They then voted leave in the referendum, Cameron set the ball rolling but the people who voted leave are responsible.
If Corbyn got in and made the mess you think he would would you excuse the people that voted for him? Of course you wouldn't, and you'd be right not to,

 

[Astute]

Yes, 100%.

I would not be in favour of reversing Brexit without the public’s consent.

But you want to go against a democratic vote to see if you can have another referendum because you don't like the result.

And again I put up the same long post. You pick out one small single sentence from it. How about putting that small single sentence into the context of the whole post. As in the problems caused if another referendum is called.

All you keep doing is pushing forward your own agenda. How about considering other things. Like what would happen if you got your own way.

 

[Astute]

I respect your opinion that we should leave without a deal. But, no one voted for a no-deal Brexit in 2016, even the staunchest of Brexiteers have to acknowledge that.

What was the question posed in the referendum?

I'm sure it was leave or remain. Nothing about deals. Nothing to do with the EU doing whatever they can to keep their claws in us.

 

[clint van damme]

What was the question posed in the referendum?

I'm sure it was leave or remain. Nothing about deals. Nothing to do with the EU doing whatever they can to keep their claws in us.

you don't see the benefits of doing a deal that allows us to "keep our claws" into all those free trade and beneficial trade agreements we have through the EU that we will lose with a no deal on March 30th?

These fabled trade deals we will be signing the next day aren't happening. Why do you think Liam Fox has been put back in his box?

 

[Astute]

it just doesn't add up to me.
As bad as I think no deal will be I think a second vote would cause divisions that will take generations to heal.

And there is the problem that some ignore.

Brexit looks as though it is going to f#ck my plans for the future up. I now have 8 years 10 months before I plan to retire. It is when my youngest two are 18 and 19. Now my wife is looking to buy in France and move there with the 3 youngest before it is too late. But I won't be going. I would see them most weeks for a couple of days. Then every 2 months I would spend just over 2 weeks with them. Not ideal at all.

But I am not going to scream and shout for another referendum as I can see the problems it would cause. The same problems that get ignored by many.

 

[Astute]

Yeah, I'm a tory voter!!
People voted for Cameron in the GE when a referendum was one of his policies, (about the only thing in his manifesto he delivered on).
They then voted leave in the referendum, Cameron set the ball rolling but the people who voted leave are responsible.
If Corbyn got in and made the mess you think he would would you excuse the people that voted for him? Of course you wouldn't, and you'd be right not to,

Not a bad guess on you being a Tory :shifty:

So it is the voters fault for voting leave in a referendum when they were lied to. But it wasn't the fault of the person who offered the referendum if they voted for him to get in and offer the referendum to the public. And it wasn't the fault of the voters who put him in place either?

So you voted in Cameron knowing what he was offering. Not your fault?

People fell for lies before the referendum. All their fault?

 

[clint van damme]

Not a bad guess on you being a Tory :shifty:

So it is the voters fault for voting leave in a referendum when they were lied to. But it wasn't the fault of the person who offered the referendum if they voted for him to get in and offer the referendum to the public. And it wasn't the fault of the voters who put him in place either?

So you voted in Cameron knowing what he was offering. Not your fault?

People fell for lies before the referendum. All their fault?

of course people who voted for Cameron take their share of the blame, I don't know the figure but imagine many voted for both.
I can't stand Cameron but you can't blame one man entirely, and if you do you're actually making a good case for a second referendum becasue if this is all Camerons fault then all a second referendum would be doing is trying to reverse one mans folly.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Think my previous post says it all. And those why try to pull most of my posts apart never made a single comment about this post. So there must be some truth in it that can't be denied in any way.

Sorry it was aimed at earlsdon or a question for him in any case or her of course

 

[Astute]

you don't see the benefits of doing a deal that allows us to "keep our claws" into all those free trade and beneficial trade agreements we have through the EU that we will lose with a no deal on March 30th?

These fabled trade deals we will be signing the next day aren't happening. Why do you think Liam Fox has been put back in his box?

Of course I see the benefits. Even the blind can see the benefits. But it isn't all good. And the blind can also see that.

We joined a trading block. It has become much more. And they want it to continue becoming much more. Even the countries leaders say the EU needs reform. But it isn't happening.

The EU looks like it could be heading for recession. It could bring us down with it. We are tied too tightly with it. It is a worry.

 

[Astute]

of course people who voted for Cameron take their share of the blame, I don't know the figure but imagine many voted for both.
I can't stand Cameron but you can't blame one man entirely, and if you do you're actually making a good case for a second referendum becasue if this is all Camerons fault then all a second referendum would be doing is trying to reverse one mans folly.

You was saying it wasn't any fault of those who voted in Cameron. I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that if you vote for something you are either at fault or not. It isn't down to what you voted for. At least you see my point now.

Are you now saying that we should go against two democratic decisions and have another referendum?

 

[clint van damme]

Of course I see the benefits. Even the blind can see the benefits. But it isn't all good. And the blind can also see that.

We joined a trading block. It has become much more. And they want it to continue becoming much more. Even the countries leaders say the EU needs reform. But it isn't happening.

The EU looks like it could be heading for recession. It could bring us down with it. We are tied too tightly with it. It is a worry.

I have asked repeatedly on this thread for someone to spell out the potential economic benefits of leaving the EU, no one has come back with anything that make sense.

I'm sure eventually we will get things back on an even keel but how long and at what cost?
The vultures will be hovering next year, (Trump, Bolnasaro etc,), I don't see it ending well.

 

[Astute]

Sorry it was aimed at earlsdon or a question for him in any case or her of course

I know.

It is just that many (not yourself) ignore what would happen if we had another referendum. They seem to think it would solve all our problems. But it could even make them worse.

 

[clint van damme]

You was saying it wasn't any fault of those who voted in Cameron. I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that if you vote for something you are either at fault or not. It isn't down to what you voted for. At least you see my point now.

Are you now saying that we should go against two democratic decisions and have another referendum?

Not sure where you get that from.
My point is that it was a democratic vote and the people who voted leave are responsible for the outcome, (good or bad). Yes there was a chain of events that lead to the referendum which played a part, but ultimately, those who voted leave are responsible for the outcome.
You sounded, or I interpreted, perhaps wrongly, that you were trying to push the majority of the blame onto Cameron, which i don't agree with although the whole tory civil war over Europe has played a large part in events.

 

[Astute]

I have asked repeatedly on this thread for someone to spell out the potential economic benefits of leaving the EU, no one has come back with anything that make sense.

I'm sure eventually we will get things back on an even keel but how long and at what cost?
The vultures will be hovering next year, (Trump, Bolnasaro etc,), I don't see it ending well.

We won't know until we see what sort of deal we end up with.

Anyone knowing how good it will be or how bad it will be is taking a guess at best.

So the EU wants to keep just about everything the same for at least a year after we leave to protect the EU. They have said that it isn't for our benefit at all. So what makes you think there won't be a final deal that benefits all?

 

[Astute]

Not sure where you get that from.
My point is that it was a democratic vote and the people who voted leave are responsible for the outcome, (good or bad). Yes there was a chain of events that lead to the referendum which played a part, but ultimately, those who voted leave are responsible for the outcome.
You sounded, or I interpreted, perhaps wrongly, that you were trying to push the majority of the blame onto Cameron, which i don't agree with although the whole tory civil war over Europe has played a large part in events.

Yes I do blame Cameron more than the voters who were lied to.

He bought votes in the GE by saying that we would get a referendum if the Tories got back in. If Cameron never offered the referendum to buy cites the referendum wouldn't have happened.

Then you have the voters. Cameron told the truth about getting a referendum if he got back in. Vote for Cameron vote for referendum. Yet not the voters fault.

Listen to the lies and project fear from both sides. Millions voted both ways because of the lies. Yet you say it was the voters fault.

Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[clint van damme]

We won't know until we see what sort of deal we end up with.

Anyone knowing how good it will be or how bad it will be is taking a guess at best.

So the EU wants to keep just about everything the same for at least a year after we leave to protect the EU. They have said that it isn't for our benefit at all. So what makes you think there won't be a final deal that benefits all?

We won't know for sure, you're right, but in the case of a no deal we can do a lot more than guess. And it doesn't look good.
I don't think there is any possible outcome that won't cause turmoil either politically or economically.
Still a lot of twists and turns to come.