The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (104 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

Theresa May tells Jeremy Corbyn ruling out no-deal Brexit is 'impossible'

Who’s politicising? We are gonna be watching a vote on the same deal in a month

 

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[martcov]

The blue passport myth was priceless and typical of the crap spewed out by the tabloids

Commemorative 50p is even better. The blue passports being made in the EU is also a good laugh.

 

[Sick Boy]

So they have experience? You think all those who supported Jeremy Corbyn were aware of his anti Eu agenda?

That has nothing to do with someone being young or old, it’s just being ill-informed.

 

[martcov]

No they are young without experience and ripe for manipulation

Manipulation is Bannon‘s department through targeted propaganda and creating so much fake news around his targets, having got their profiles, that they no longer know what to believe. Then hit them with fake news that he knows will sit,knowing that they now doubt MSM.

 

[skybluetony176]

No they are young without experience and ripe for manipulation

So why didn’t they vote equally for both leave and remain? Both sides had an equal opportunity to “manipulate” them but they voted more for one than the other. That can only possibly mean that there was more than one factor in their decision making.

 

[Astute]

50,1% would have won. Which is what he meant.

52% did win. The problem is that 52% voted the wrong way than expected. So it doesn't count as a win.

 

[skybluetony176]

Commemorative 50p is even better. The blue passports being made in the EU is also a good laugh.

Ironically it means my red passport is more British than the blue passport that will replace it. Still I can console myself by drinking Yorkshire tea. That’s as British as they come. Oh wait...

 

[martcov]

52% did win. The problem is that 52% voted the wrong way than expected. So it doesn't count as a win.

No the problem is that it wasn’t a qualified majority, which would in most countries be necessary for such an important change. Which is why where we are. Simple majority on the day, which today would be the opposite.

 

[martcov]

You live in the mostly highly capitalist country in the EU that the whole project was designed to benefit

You are the definition of a cosy right wing capitalist reaping riches at the expense of others.

Shows how much you know. Germany is Sozialmarktwirtschaft country. Which is why there are so many safeguardsy

 

[oakey]

It’s a solution that would destroy democracy in this country for ever

I think it will be very damaging, undoubtedly, and that's why MPs should apologise and offer their constituents their resignations or a public meeting with the chance to remove them.
But it is the lesser of 2 evils: keep a foolish promise or save the nation from dark times and worse instability.
1) Democracy is more than a one off vote.
2) Representative democracy must trump direct democracy ... and no more referendums.
3) The right wing forces should not be appeased. They must be overcome legally and faced down. Their veiled threats of violence if they don't get their Brexit only end with their defeat. Better to get it over with.

 

[dancers lance]

This doesn't really stack up does it, the young have grown up in a country that is part of the EU, it's what they know. Older people hanker after the country they grew up in before the EU, i don't think it has anything to do with i indoctrination.

However, most of the people "hankering after the country they grew up in" would have been children when we entered the common market (EU) over 40 years ago, surely they should have been given the chance to vote, this was a vote to change their future? Surely, if those who voted out are mostly from this specific demographic then aren't they the most relevant to form an opinion on the EU, being that they have lived within this project for nearly half a century?

 

[rob9872]

So why didn’t they vote equally for both leave and remain? Both sides had an equal opportunity to “manipulate” them but they voted more for one than the other. That can only possibly mean that there was more than one factor in their decision making.

Teachers are almost all part of a union and left leaning.

*I do appreciate that many labour supporters are actually pro-brexit too before you point it our to me.

 

[oakey]

Teachers are almost all part of a union and left leaning.

*I do appreciate that many labour supporters are actually pro-brexit too before you point it our to me.

As a teacher for over 30 years I can tell you most teachers are like the general population, a mixed bag with a few lefties.
Most colleagues show no interest in politics.

 

[oakey]

At my school only about 10 per cent show any interest in their union and the.main reason for being in one is for legal protection against malicious accusations. Unions have good lawyers.

 

[skybluetony176]

At my school only about 10 per cent show any interest in their union and the.main reason for being in one is for legal protection against malicious accusations. Unions have good lawyers.

I know someone who works in the prison service and the only reason they are a union member is for the exact same reason and I gather that is pretty standard in the prison service. I wouldn’t describe the prison service as left wing either.

 

[dancers lance]

At my school only about 10 per cent show any interest in their union and the.main reason for being in one is for legal protection against malicious accusations. Unions have good lawyers.

I would 100% agree, I think there is a widely held misconception regarding Union membership, that the reason for being a member is because you are a Socialist or a far left trouble maker. As you say, most are affiliated because it's the only form of support and security they can get in a work environment that makes it hard to voice an opinion or even speak out.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

52% did win. The problem is that 52% voted the wrong way than expected. So it doesn't count as a win.

Are you really not seeing the point or are you just continuing to make your own?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Can’t believe the audience in derby. Can’t work out if they are thick stupid or arrogant. I think arrogant. Presented with the consequence of leaving without a deal a majority were quite happy to say fair enough it’s gonna be bad but we’ll take it. Just wow!!!

Looks like the hundreds of people who are moving to work on no deal planning in my department are going to be busy

 

[martcov]

Can’t believe the audience in derby. Can’t work out if they are thick stupid or arrogant. I think arrogant. Presented with the consequence of leaving without a deal a majority were quite happy to say fair enough it’s gonna be bad but we’ll take it. Just wow!!!

Looks like the hundreds of people who are moving to work on no deal planning in my department are going to be busy

It would be ok if they were gallantly going to take it, but unfortunately everyone will have to take it. They know that and are prepared to make the country poorer for „it“. Selfish idiots.

 

[martcov]

The older people voted to remain in the common market. They then found out about the future plans that became the EU. They were lied to. They know more about politics than those who haven't learned how bad politicians are. They were given the chance to vote leave on something we never had a vote to join.

I’m one of the older ones who voted to stay in. You just made up a sweeping statement. We had a representative parliament the whole time. If life in the EU was that bad we could have had an election fought on leaving, or there could have been a UKIP much earlier. This crap really started with the crash in 2008 coinciding with Farage and other populists being given a platform through social media. YouTube was Farage‘s breakthrough ( according to him ). Constant propaganda, nowadays professionally managed by the likes of Bannon ( financed by billionaires). Constant fake news to confuse people and create distrust in MSM ( e.g. BBC ). In Britain the old print media ( not all of it) is on a similar wavelength to some of these SM organisations ( the Express being specifically Farage’s mouthpiece) and is owned by a handful of billionaires. No surprise that they back a project for „the few“ by bombarding „the many“ with anti EU propaganda for decades.

If the people you refer to know more about politics, how come they follow liars and conmen like BoJo, RM and Farage? Obviously they haven’t learned about bad politicians, or don’t understand what’s going on.

 

[Otis]

Can’t believe the audience in derby. Can’t work out if they are thick stupid or arrogant. I think arrogant. Presented with the consequence of leaving without a deal a majority were quite happy to say fair enough it’s gonna be bad but we’ll take it. Just wow!!!

Looks like the hundreds of people who are moving to work on no deal planning in my department are going to be busy

As I said before, there will be an awful lot of people who will be saying no deal and leave just means leave, who will be first to moan when we suffer the consequences of no deal after.

 

[Astute]

Are you really not seeing the point or are you just continuing to make your own?

Come on Pete was supposed to have been a little laugh in a thread of doom.and gloom. Should have been obvious.

Or are you saying I make my own points? If so I can point you in the direction of a few who do it all day every day on this thread.

 

[Astute]

Can’t believe the audience in derby. Can’t work out if they are thick stupid or arrogant. I think arrogant. Presented with the consequence of leaving without a deal a majority were quite happy to say fair enough it’s gonna be bad but we’ll take it. Just wow!!!

Looks like the hundreds of people who are moving to work on no deal planning in my department are going to be busy

And this is what I have been saying. Some people have been hit harder than others by us being in the EU. Some people blame the EU for things that isn't the fault of us being in the EU in any way. Some people do well out if us being in the EU. And some people will defend the EU whatever it does and however bad it is. And some people are just clueless.

We have all those on here. We have all those throughout the UK. This is why another referendum would cause uproar. It is why May has to be careful. Look at the polls where several choices are given. The most or second most votes are normally leave without a deal. There are millions of people who feel this way. I am not saying that they are right. I am pointing out a fact. We had a referendum. The result was leave. Millions think we should leave whatever. Just like millions think we should remain in the EU whatever.

This is why May keeps to leave. This is why Corbyn won't say what Labour actually wants. He constantly says how much of a bad job May is doing but won't say what he would do better. He is happy to say we shouldn't leave without a deal. But he wouldn't dare say we shouldn't leave. He is alienating millions of people just by saying that leaving without a deal shouldn't be on the table.

The problem is that we are so divided. We have many that are extreme to both sides and don't want to consider what the other side has to say. They don't even want to consider anything those with a similar view have if it isn't fully towards what they want.

That is why it is such a massive shitfest that isn't going to go away whatever happens.

 

[Astute]

I’m one of the older ones who voted to stay in. You just made up a sweeping statement. We had a representative parliament the whole time. If life in the EU was that bad we could have had an election fought on leaving, or there could have been a UKIP much earlier. This crap really started with the crash in 2008 coinciding with Farage and other populists being given a platform through social media. YouTube was Farage‘s breakthrough ( according to him ). Constant propaganda, nowadays professionally managed by the likes of Bannon ( financed by billionaires). Constant fake news to confuse people and create distrust in MSM ( e.g. BBC ). In Britain the old print media ( not all of it) is on a similar wavelength to some of these SM organisations ( the Express being specifically Farage’s mouthpiece) and is owned by a handful of billionaires. No surprise that they back a project for „the few“ by bombarding „the many“ with anti EU propaganda for decades.

If the people you refer to know more about politics, how come they follow liars and conmen like BoJo, RM and Farage? Obviously they haven’t learned about bad politicians, or don’t understand what’s going on.

Following the crash in 2008? Shows you don't live in the UK.

Try again. A major problem was immigration into the UK from the EU. But when someone states this you have people like yourself trying to say someone is racist or similar. You have people like yourself who say millions of people coming to live in the UK has made no difference in homeless totals in the UK. It isn't to blame but it has made a massive difference. If millions hadn't come here we wouldn't need homes for millions of people. But some can't get their heads around that there would still have been immigration without the EU ruling that we can't stop it.

I made a sweeping statement? What was that then?

Whichever way you put it we did join the common market. We did vote to remain in the common market. We didn't vote to remain in the EU.

Here is a link for you. It is from the Telegraph. It explains what happened and how we ended up in the EU. Being in the EU was always the aim. But it was kept from the public. Being in a customs union was what we were told. The problem is that once the documents became 30 years old they could then be viewed by the public. So the secret was out. Once the public found that they had been duped they went anti EU even more. Yes we have had those representing us. But they have just represented the lies told the public.

Nine deceptions in our history with the EU

 

[Otis]

Both May and Corbyn are tied in knots by all the differing factions within their parties.

Whatever they do they are going to alienate large chunks of their party, so I can kind of see the reluctance to unequivocally come down on one side of the other.

Has the country ever been so split over an issue?

 

[Astute]

As I said before, there will be an awful lot of people who will be saying no deal and leave just means leave, who will be first to moan when we suffer the consequences of no deal after.

Of course they will moan. Just like those who want to remain whatever moan right now.

Moaning about anything is a British trait.

 

[Astute]

Both May and Corbyn are tied in knots by all the differing factions within their parties.

Whatever they do they are going to alienate large chunks of their party, so I can kind of see the reluctance to unequivocally come down on one side of the other.

Has the country ever been so split over an issue?

They would also alienate large chunks of their electorate. Corbyn wants to become king. He is trying his best not to upset anyone. The problem is that it makes him look weak. It makes him look like he doesn't have vision. He is handing the next GE on a plate to the Tories.

 

[Otis]

I am also concerned that large swathes of the population will be annoyed that he is focusing on a general election at a time when all the focus should only be on the Brexit situation.

He is surely never, ever going to win a no confidence vote in the government.

I get the tactic, but I think a lot of the general public are annoyed by it.

 

[Sick Boy]

I am also concerned that large swathes of the population will be annoyed that he is focusing on a general election at a time when all the focus should only be on the Brexit situation.

He is surely never, ever going to win a no confidence vote in the government.

I get the tactic, but I think a lot of the general public are annoyed by it.

It seems that he has already kicked off his campaigning, perhaps someone should tell him his plan hasn’t worked?

I wasn’t keen on him before but am now even less so.

 

[Sick Boy]

Come on Pete was supposed to have been a little laugh in a thread of doom.and gloom. Should have been obvious.

Or are you saying I make my own points? If so I can point you in the direction of a few who do it all day every day on this thread.

I bet you’re a right laugh

 

[Otis]

It seems that he has already kicked off his campaigning, perhaps someone should tell him his plan hasn’t worked?

I wasn’t keen on him before but am now even less so.

I think he is coming across as dithering now unfortunately.

Seems like the rest of the opposition parties met with May and simply said no deal had to be off the table. Corbyn should have done the same. The papers are now all over his not meeting the PM. Makes him look obstructive and intransigent, when he could have just simply gone through the motions, turned up, said the same thing and not have received all this focus.

 

[martcov]

Following the crash in 2008? Shows you don't live in the UK.

Try again. A major problem was immigration into the UK from the EU. But when someone states this you have people like yourself trying to say someone is racist or similar. You have people like yourself who say millions of people coming to live in the UK has made no difference in homeless totals in the UK. It isn't to blame but it has made a massive difference. If millions hadn't come here we wouldn't need homes for millions of people. But some can't get their heads around that there would still have been immigration without the EU ruling that we can't stop it.

I made a sweeping statement? What was that then?

Whichever way you put it we did join the common market. We did vote to remain in the common market. We didn't vote to remain in the EU.

Here is a link for you. It is from the Telegraph. It explains what happened and how we ended up in the EU. Being in the EU was always the aim. But it was kept from the public. Being in a customs union was what we were told. The problem is that once the documents became 30 years old they could then be viewed by the public. So the secret was out. Once the public found that they had been duped they went anti EU even more. Yes we have had those representing us. But they have just represented the lies told the public.

Nine deceptions in our history with the EU

You post a leave campaign article as if it were gospel. Totally slanted.

If you listen to Farage explaining his success, where he is not trying to sell leave or lie like fxxk, he explains some of „his“ success. Even in your article it quotes only 30% wanting to leave. The majority moaned about this or that, bendy bananas or whatever was „news“, but were not annoyed enough to want out.

Social media changed that in the last couple of years with the arguments like the one you posted.

The Telegraph article is the conspiracy theory frightener. We are not being forced into anything. We ratified each move, or rather our sovereign parliament did. Would you prefer direct government whereby we have constant referenda and the present mess is the norm?

As usual you return to FOM. It may be your main reason for leaving, but millions see it differently.

 

[Astute]

You post a leave campaign article as if it were gospel. Totally slanted.

If you listen to Farage explaining his success, where he is not trying to sell leave or lie like fxxk, he explains some of „his“ success. Even in your article it quotes only 30% wanting to leave. The majority moaned about this or that, bendy bananas or whatever was „news“, but were not annoyed enough to want out.

Social media changed that in the last couple of years with the arguments like the one you posted.

The Telegraph article is the conspiracy theory frightener. We are not being forced into anything. We ratified each move, or rather our sovereign parliament did. Would you prefer direct government whereby we have constant referenda and the present mess is the norm?

As usual you return to FOM. It may be your main reason for leaving, but millions see it differently.

Leave campaign?

Why do you try to hide the truth? It is a fact on what happened.

This one from the Guardian showing how the papers persuaded the remain in the common market vote.

Did national papers' pro-European bias in 1975 affect the referendum?

This one is from 2012. I suppose this was more referendum propaganda although it was when the papers saying about the lies to the public from Heath were released

2012-003 Edward Heath and a letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth office 1972 – Scroll down to B 2012-003

Now I know you are going to make excuses up for it. So how about the BBC in 2001?

BBC NEWS | In Depth | UK Confidential | UK downplayed sovereignty in Euro talks

 

[martcov]

Leave campaign?

Why do you try to hide the truth? It is a fact on what happened.

This one from the Guardian showing how the papers persuaded the remain in the common market vote.

Did national papers' pro-European bias in 1975 affect the referendum?

This one is from 2012. I suppose this was more referendum propaganda although it was when the papers saying about the lies to the public from Heath were released

2012-003 Edward Heath and a letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth office 1972 – Scroll down to B 2012-003

Now I know you are going to make excuses up for it. So how about the BBC in 2001?

BBC NEWS | In Depth | UK Confidential | UK downplayed sovereignty in Euro talks

We are still a sovereign nation. Life goes on. What is now so terrible? Apart from FOM, which is reciprocal

 

[Ian1779]

I think he is coming across as dithering now unfortunately.

Seems like the rest of the opposition parties met with May and simply said no deal had to be off the table. Corbyn should have done the same. The papers are now all over his not meeting the PM. Makes him look obstructive and intransigent, when he could have just simply gone through the motions, turned up, said the same thing and not have received all this focus.

May is the one that won’t budge - yet Corbyn gets the flak. From a media perspective this couldn’t play out any better for them if they tried... and you’ve bought the narrative.

Again, comes back to the perception of leadership. May supposedly is perceived as a strong leader for making no concessions on a deal that got slaughtered in Parliament. Corbyn is supposedly a weak leader for setting out clearly what needs to change in order to have a meaningful discussion and produce a workable outcome.

You literally couldn’t make this shit up if you tried.