The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (194 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

I’m sure it’s of enormous benefit to all those economically ruined Southern Europe states. Meaningless attempts at deflecting from the real intent

The southern states, such as Italy and Greece have severe issues with corruption, which have and will continue to stop the countries from moving forward. Then you have organised crime in Italy sucking billions out of the economy

 

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[Grendel]

Could a Brexit party get 37%? In short, no. Our electoral system disproportionately favours Labour and Conservative and each party has at least 100 seats each that are safe seats. UKIP failed to get a single seat in an election where they got 15% of the popular vote.

How do you think the European elections will go?

 

[skybluetony176]

You

That was a throwaway comment Tony.

I did however expect us as a country to pull together in an attempt to get the best deal possible. This is what has annoyed/upset me most since the referendum. I’ve said before how impressed I’ve been with the solidarity of the EU members and their support of Barnier through the negotiation process. Nobody has really broken ranks.

We, on the other hand, have continually undermined and weakened our own position. It’s been bizarre.

The problem is the general consensus has never been approached. There’s one in Parliament and all indications are that there’s the same one with the public. May in stumbling over herself to be popular tried to play up to the vocal side of leave whether that be in her own party, parliament or the general public. She set herself on the road to defeat from day one rather than stop, take stock, take measures to find the general consensus in her own party, parliament and the public. Everything that’s happened in the last two+ years is down to her and the path she took us down.

 

[Grendel]

The southern states, such as Italy and Greece are have severe issues with corruption, which have and will continue to stop the countries from moving forward. Then you have organised crime in Italy sucking billions out of the economy

Oh right. So how about Spain, Portugal, the Czech Republic? What’s their views on the EU

Italy rates the Eu as a benefit to Italy lower than the uk doesn’t it?

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh dear I seem to have missed a comment by Tony.

Your answer is people like him. They refuse to think about what is best and the best way of going about things. The EU knows time was on their side. They don't lay their cards on the table. They offer the lowest amount. They give orders to keep to them until more orders are given. But many in the UK have gone 100% with project fear.

Look at what happened as soon as leaving without the deal they offered. They came straight out with hardly anything will change for at least a year. Their arse is covered. But about 50% are still happy to bow down to them.

Yes. People like me. By that you mean people who are just trying to get on with their lives despite this. You seem to think people like me have some sort of power to influence this.

 

[Astute]

My word, deflecting away from Fox now after droning on about corruption in the EU

Me deflecting?

Have I tried defending Fox? No not at all. Have you tried defending Bercow yet had a go at Fox? Of course. Yet you try and twist it around to me not being straight with the point. Just shows how twisted your logic can be.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

How do you think the European elections will go?

As things stand, we’ll be gone by then.

Assuming Article 50 was extended and we stood candidates in the European Elections. I’d expect next to no-one to come out and vote. So a Brexit Party could do well in European elections, maybe the Lib Dem’s might get a few protest votes too. UKIP did win the last European elections and that didn’t translate to Parliamentary seats in 2015.

 

[Astute]

I’m surprised you haven’t been calling out Grendel for claiming to Mart that Farage is irrelevant in the UK, or perhaps not.

This is why you get called out by people as you only ever spend time attacking those on favour of remaining.

The notion that Farage was and is irrelevant in the UK is very misleading, he has a lot of influence amongst certain voters.

However I don’t think any party of his would get anywhere, I think it’s more likely the Tory party would split

Oh the irony.

You and a few others constantly have a go at me. And that is because I refuse to join your crew where everyone who is pro EU can do what they want as they will get defended and anyone anti EU in any way should be hanged. I want the same rules for all.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Oh the irony.

You and a few others constantly have a go at me. And that is because I refuse to join your crew where everyone who is pro EU can do what they want as they will get defended and anyone anti EU in any way should be hanged. I want the same rules for all.

You really have a siege mentality, don’t you?

 

[Sick Boy]

Oh right. So how about Spain, Portugal, the Czech Republic? What’s their views on the EU

Italy rates the Eu as a benefit to Italy lower than the uk doesn’t it?

How was the UK getting on before joining? Wasn’t it known as a basket case/sick man of Europe?

All countries in Europe have domestic issues that are not all due to EU membership.

How are the Brexiteer claims of the UK leaving leading to a domino effect coming along?

There’s no appetite to leave the EU in Italy, possibly more so the Euro, but there is zero prospect of leaving the EU. I’ve not spoken to anyone here who sees the UK leaving as admirable or something they should do as well, and I live in Veneto.

 

[Sick Boy]

Oh the irony.

You and a few others constantly have a go at me. And that is because I refuse to join your crew where everyone who is pro EU can do what they want as they will get defended and anyone anti EU in any way should be hanged. I want the same rules for all.

Hahaha yeah whatever, your actions speak a lot louder than your words on this. You only seem to apply these ‘rules’ to remain voters and never challenge leavers

 

[Grendel]

As things stand, we’ll be gone by then.

Assuming Article 50 was extended and we stood candidates in the European Elections. I’d expect next to no-one to come out and vote. So a Brexit Party could do well in European elections, maybe the Lib Dem’s might get a few protest votes too. UKIP did win the last European elections and that didn’t translate to Parliamentary seats in 2015.

Euro elections always have a low vote - why is that do you think?

 

[Astute]

Could a Brexit party get 37%? In short, no. Our electoral system disproportionately favours Labour and Conservative and each party has at least 100 seats each that are safe seats. UKIP failed to get a single seat in an election where they got 15% of the popular vote.

But it is different now.

They got the result they wanted. Yet the MP's have gone against what was voted for. Why would they vote for an MP that has already gone against what was voted for?

So let's say 10% for smaller parties including Lib Dems. 90% left. About half Tory half Labour. But how many would still vote for Labour or the Tories after what has just happened?

We won't know unless or until it happens. Just look on here. All logic has gone out the window. It seems you have to be for or against. No middle ground seems to be allowed. If leave voters saw it the same way millions of votes would be lost by both Labour and the Tories.

A scary thought.

 

[CCFCSteve]

You
Everything that’s happened in the last two+ years is down to her and the path she took us down.

You don’t really believe that ? Everything ? Come on. She has fucked up the negotiations, if anything by trying to deliver a compromise, but there is no way ‘everything’ can be pinned on her.

The vote was split, we hadn’t planned for the outcome and have had numerous crisis of confidence over the past couple of years all of which have contributed to the current situation.

From Day One there has been a large number of the public (and public figures) wanting to overturn the result. That is their prerogative, however, as I’ve alluded to there is no doubt this undermines our position in negotiations. What’s the incentive for the EU deliver a quick and painless separation ? The longer it all goes on and the more difficult the process is, the higher the likelihood of there being a second vote and/or panic to negotiate something/anything rather than the best possible outcome for the country.

This is exactly what has happened. I don’t blame the EU, it’s the stance I would’ve taken if I’d had been in their shoes.

 

[Sick Boy]

Euro elections always have a low vote - why is that do you think?

Ironically Brexit has probably led to the UK having some of the most passionate EU supporters in its population.

 

[clint van damme]

but there is no way ‘everything’ can be pinned on her.

the sly bitch conived herself into number 10, she deserves everything that's thrown at her.

 

[Sick Boy]

But it is different now.

They got the result they wanted. Yet the MP's have gone against what was voted for. Why would they vote for an MP that has already gone against what was voted for?

So let's say 10% for smaller parties including Lib Dems. 90% left. About half Tory half Labour. But how many would still vote for Labour or the Tories after what has just happened?

We won't know unless or until it happens. Just look on here. All logic has gone out the window. It seems you have to be for or against. No middle ground seems to be allowed. If leave voters saw it the same way millions of votes would be lost by both Labour and the Tories.

A scary thought.

It wouldn’t happen as most see Farage for the scumbag he is; it’s much more likely we’d see a Tory split

 

[CCFCSteve]

the sly bitch conived herself into number 10, she deserves everything that's thrown at her.

Bit strong Clint. Each to their own though. I stand by my comment that this mess can not be wholly blamed on one person !

 

[Astute]

Would be an insane vote to use for a protest. Hope they wouldn’t get more than 15% but you may be right

Agreed. But this referendum crap has brought out the worse in some. Just look at this thread. Some people refuse to look further than their nose. This so called Brexit party would get a lot of people voting for them for this reason. Not only that but millions have lost all their faith in our system. Yet some will still refuse to take it seriously.

We both agreed this could happen just like a few others did. Now the shitstorm is about to get worse. Now the May deal is looking like a slightly better deal although it still shouldn't be accepted.

 

[skybluetony176]

You don’t really believe that ? Everything ? Come on. She has fucked up the negotiations, if anything by trying to deliver a compromise, but there is no way ‘everything’ can be pinned on her.

The vote was split, we hadn’t planned for the outcome and have had numerous crisis of confidence over the past couple of years all of which have contributed to the current situation.

From Day One there has been a large number of the public (and public figures) wanting to overturn the result. That is their prerogative, however, as I’ve alluded to there is no doubt this undermines our position in negotiations. What’s the incentive for the EU deliver a quick and painless separation ? The longer it all goes on and the more difficult the process is, the higher the likelihood of there being a second vote and/or panic to negotiate something/anything rather than the best possible outcome for the country.

This is exactly what has happened. I don’t blame the EU, it’s the stance I would’ve taken if I’d had been in their shoes.

If she had have took the time and trouble to take stock and find out general consensus in and out of parliament she wouldn’t have drawn the red lines she did and we wouldn’t be here now. It’s as simple as that.

 

[Astute]

It was Astute who posted the article and his claims of a new party, argue it with him.

My claims of a new party? You wouldn't see the truth even if it smacked you in the face.

So us the Guardian now lying?

The party has been registered. It has nothing to do with me. So would you like to explain how it is my party?

Of course not. Just another throw away comment by yourself that you will now ignore.

 

[skybluetony176]

Bit strong Clint. Each to their own though. I stand by my comment that this mess can not be wholly blamed on one person !

No one had a gun to her head making her draw the red lines against the general consensus that she did. I think in this case it’s very clear that one person is to blame.

 

[CCFCSteve]

If she had have took the time and trouble to take stock and find out general consensus in and out of parliament she wouldn’t have drawn the red lines she did and we wouldn’t be here now. It’s as simple as that.

Simplistic view and ignores the extremes on both sides who haven’t wanted to compromise from day one

 

[Astute]

Could a Brexit party get 37%? In short, no. Our electoral system disproportionately favours Labour and Conservative and each party has at least 100 seats each that are safe seats. UKIP failed to get a single seat in an election where they got 15% of the popular vote.

Safe seats?

Nearly 54% of England voted leave. How many of these feel let down by the system? How many are as desperate to leave the EU as some of you are to remain in it? The lies in here show how bad some are. Leavers are just the same.

 

[skybluetony176]

Simplistic view and ignores the extremes on both sides who haven’t wanted to compromise from day one

It is simplistic I agree. The reason being it was never that complicated in the first place. All she had to do was listen to the general consensus. There’s no need for long paragraphs of explanations. The problem is one very fine singular. Her, that’s her red lines ignoring a consensus. The extremes are two minorities less than the majority consensus. She’s listened to one of those extremes and drawn her red lines.

 

[Astute]

As things stand, we’ll be gone by then.

Assuming Article 50 was extended and we stood candidates in the European Elections. I’d expect next to no-one to come out and vote. So a Brexit Party could do well in European elections, maybe the Lib Dem’s might get a few protest votes too. UKIP did win the last European elections and that didn’t translate to Parliamentary seats in 2015.

I have said countless times before and I say the same now. We won't have left the EU by the end of March. There is a good chance we won't leave at all as most MP's want us to remain in the EU.

 

[Astute]

Hahaha yeah whatever, your actions speak a lot louder than your words on this. You only seem to apply these ‘rules’ to remain voters and never challenge leavers

The leavers don't constantly have a go at me whenever I make comments against the remain side. Yet as soon as I make a comment that you or others don't like you all pile into me. Take another look at this thread. Even try to look at the last couple of pages. Then try to deny it again. Am I supposed to ignore your constant false accusations? Not a chance.

Like I said you defend anyone on the side of remain and attack anyone on the side of remain. It doesn't matter if they have been found guilty or not.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It is simplistic I agree. The reason being it was never that complicated in the first place. All she had to do was listen to the general consensus. There’s no need for long paragraphs of explanations. The problem is one very fine singular. Her, that’s her red lines ignoring a consensus.

Haha, there’s no point debating Tony as you obviously have a view as to what ‘the consensus’ would be and that if only May had followed it, the staunch (second referendum) Remainers and (No deal)’ Brexiteers would have disappeared, a fantastic deal would’ve been agreed with the EU and this would’ve been sorted months ago. As you probably gather I disagree.

 

[skybluetony176]

I have said countless times before and I say the same now. We won't have left the EU by the end of March. There is a good chance we won't leave at all as most MP's want us to remain in the EU.

Most MP’s want a customs union. The democratic thing would be to put that to the people and give parliament the mandate to do that. Or not.

 

[Astute]

It wouldn’t happen as most see Farage for the scumbag he is; it’s much more likely we’d see a Tory split

Would you vote remain if you had to vote for someone you didn't like or would you vote leave because you liked the person standing for leave?

 

[clint van damme]

Bit strong Clint. Each to their own though. I stand by my comment that this mess can not be wholly blamed on one person !

not solely down to her but she's tits deep in it and is as guilty as any of the other main protagonists.

 

[Astute]

Bit strong Clint. Each to their own though. I stand by my comment that this mess can not be wholly blamed on one person !

Oh yes it can. Cameron started it all off just to buy votes off UKIP.

 

[skybluetony176]

Haha, there’s no point debating Tony as you obviously have a view as to what ‘the consensus’ would be and that if only May had followed it, the staunch (second referendum) Remainers and (No deal)’ Brexiteers would have disappeared, a fantastic deal would’ve been agreed with the EU and this would’ve been sorted months ago. As you probably gather I disagree.

The general consensus is a customs union. Let the people tell them they are right, or wrong and we then can move forward. Nothing is going to get through parliament until they are given a mandate for or against a customs union. That’s the singular that has brought brexit to a deadlock. The alternative is parliament doesn’t pass brexit. Either no brexit or hard brexit, in which case the minority has won. How’s that democracy?

 

[Astute]

Haha, there’s no point debating Tony as you obviously have a view as to what ‘the consensus’ would be and that if only May had followed it, the staunch (second referendum) Remainers and (No deal)’ Brexiteers would have disappeared, a fantastic deal would’ve been agreed with the EU and this would’ve been sorted months ago. As you probably gather I disagree.

Which is why I had to put him on ignore. I took him off a few times but won't again. A UKIP voter and hero worshipped some unsavoury characters until he worked out that Brexit wasn't really good for him. Or he wanted to be in with the boys for once.

 

[skybluetony176]

Which is why I had to put him on ignore. I took him off a few times but won't again. A UKIP voter and hero worshipped some unsavoury characters until he worked out that Brexit wasn't really good for him. Or he wanted to be in with the boys for once.

Yeah that must be it. Nothing to do with pointing out how your own links dismiss what you’re saying, or pointing out that horses don’t like horse racing because they keep running when the jockey falls off.