The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (154 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So the minimum hundreds that left the UK to join ISIS should all be let back in? Because Corbyn would be for it.

Would the UK still be safe?

Membership of/fighting for ISIS is itself a crime. They would be allowed back in and immediately prosecuted.

 

---

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Most of those who have left were in very safe Labour seats. Antisemitism and bullying in the Labour party has been in the spotlight for ages. Yet the same people always try to find excuses for it.

Now Hatton has rejoined the Labour party after getting kicked out years ago. Corbyn spoke out against him getting removed from the Labour party.

Opinion: Why letting Derek Hatton back into the Labour Party is a big deal

The return of King Rat Derek Hatton marks a new low for Labour

Who is Derek Hatton?

Are we all still happy with the direction the Labour party is going in?

Hatton has been suspended days after joining. What I find astonishing is that the Conservatives, the party that implemented homophobic legislation in the '80s and had to be press-ganged into supporting LGBT rights under the Coalition, is portraying itself as a beacon of tolerance and progressiveness. If you want to find stories of local Tories acting disgracefully, they're easy to find. It's also easy to find stories of Labour members doing unforgivable things at a local level too. To pretend that this makes the party institutionally anti-Semitic, mainly because its leader is a critic of Israel, is intellectually dishonest.

If there is no election it doesn’t matter what Corbyn does or says. The Tories made this mess, and they have to own it. If Corbyn came out tomorrow for a 2nd referendum it’s not going to take down parliament is it? He won’t suddenly become PM. All that would happen is that the focus will be on him being ‘an enemy of democracy’ - which ironically would probably lead to a snap election and Labour being wiped out.

I don’t disagree with your view about Brexit. But I can’t see how you can just ignore 2016. It’s dangerous territory for society as a whole.

If enough people still want to fuck the country over they will vote for it and Parliament will have an unambiguous mandate. The same for if it goes the other way. There have already been polls showing Labour losing millions of votes to the Lib Dems if they back May's deal.

 

[Astute]

Hatton has been suspended days after joining. What I find astonishing is that the Conservatives, the party that implemented homophobic legislation in the '80s and had to be press-ganged into supporting LGBT rights under the Coalition, is portraying itself as a beacon of tolerance and progressiveness. If you want to find stories of local Tories acting disgracefully, they're easy to find. It's also easy to find stories of Labour members doing unforgivable things at a local level too. To pretend that this makes the party institutionally anti-Semitic, mainly because its leader is a critic of Israel, is intellectually dishonest.



If enough people still want to fuck the country over they will vote for it and Parliament will have an unambiguous mandate. The same for if it goes the other way. There have already been polls showing Labour losing millions of votes to the Lib Dems if they back May's deal.

Yeah. Let's look at the Tories in the 80's for an excuse for Labour accepting Hatton back into the Labour party. Have you looked at what went on in the Labour party in the 80's? Of course not.

The UK has changed massively since the 70's and 80's. People of your age May have read about it. But living through it was something different. Racism was seen as the norm. Top sit coms involved racism for jokes. Racist comedians were a top draw. You have programs made then that could never be shown now. But they were at the top of the ratings. And you only had 3 TV channels to choose from.

Yet nine of this is an excuse for what Hatton did or letting him back into the Labour party. But you will defend Corbyn whatever as you always do.

 

[Astute]

He's actually very close. Not as though you'll ever vote for it. The centrists got us down to about 200 MPs and lost Scotland for good, by repeatedly going into Tory-lite mode. The last finding is quite damning-people perceive the Tories to be competent but hate their policies. Think that the media has no role on this, Astute? Will you ever vote for policies you clearly prefer?

Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov

Corbyn’s policies really are popular with centrist voters. But he still isn’t | Chris Curtis

People Like Jeremy Corbyn's Policies When They Don't Realise They're Labour's, Poll Suggests

Thanks for proving what I have been saying and you have been denying.

Yes some of Corbyns policies are what the British public want. But they don't want Corbyn. And whatever excuses are made on his behalf this will never change.

 

[martcov]

The law also allowed a fugitive to continue his appeals from his place of hiding.

Well let’s change the law then. What counts is what the law says at the time.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yeah. Let's look at the Tories in the 80's for an excuse for Labour accepting Hatton back into the Labour party. Have you looked at what went on in the Labour party in the 80's? Of course not.

The UK has changed massively since the 70's and 80's. People of your age May have read about it. But living through it was something different. Racism was seen as the norm. Top sit coms involved racism for jokes. Racist comedians were a top draw. You have programs made then that could never be shown now. But they were at the top of the ratings. And you only had 3 TV channels to choose from.

Yet nine of this is an excuse for what Hatton did or letting him back into the Labour party. But you will defend Corbyn whatever as you always do.

So the bigotry of the 70s and 80s is defensible because everyone was doing it? Ridiculous. The Prime Minister was an open homophobe. The attitudes were clearly still there when the Coalition legalised gay marriage. Hatton was almost immediately suspended (for criticising Israel). He wasn't 'let back in', he applied to join after 30 years' absence and is back outside the party. Still don't see much evidence of an 'institutionally' anti-Semitic party.

Yes we are also able to watch things like Del Boy giving a kid 50 p to 'buy something from the pakis on the corner'. Doesn't avoid that the Conservatives were an institutionally bigoted party at the time.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thanks for proving what I have been saying and you have been denying.

Yes some of Corbyns policies are what the British public want. But they don't want Corbyn. And whatever excuses are made on his behalf this will never change.

They aren't excuses, the media misrepresents his positions constantly and have done since he was made leader. This isn't my opinion, it's objective fact. More widely they have done a hatchet job on the British public to vote against their own self-interest. This is why Corbyn closed a 20+ point polling gap when he was allowed to campaign and given air time to push his policies. I care about the policies more than the man, I've always said that. But if you're trying to argue that the press have no role in public opinion of the man you're objectively wrong.

Same for Ed Miliband before him.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well let’s change the law then. What counts is what the law says at the time.

Anjem Choudhary was prosecuted for expressing similar views-and a fair amount of undercover work had to go into providing the evidence. This lady's views were expressed in interviews on national TV.

 

[martcov]

Anjem Choudhary was prosecuted for expressing similar views-and a fair amount of undercover work had to go into providing the evidence. This lady's views were expressed in interviews on national TV.

Yes, well I hope she gets sent down for it. Still not for creating stateless people though.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes, well I hope she gets sent down for it. Still not for creating stateless people though.

The law allows the Home Office to deprive citizenship provided that the person wouldn't become stateless as a result. If she is a Bangladeshi citizen clearly there is no issue.

 

[Astute]

So the bigotry of the 70s and 80s is defensible because everyone was doing it? Ridiculous. The Prime Minister was an open homophobe. The attitudes were clearly still there when the Coalition legalised gay marriage. Hatton was almost immediately suspended (for criticising Israel). He wasn't 'let back in', he applied to join after 30 years' absence and is back outside the party. Still don't see much evidence of an 'institutionally' anti-Semitic party.

Yes we are also able to watch things like Del Boy giving a kid 50 p to 'buy something from the pakis on the corner'. Doesn't avoid that the Conservatives were an institutionally bigoted party at the time.

Why do you have to lie to try and make a point?

Or would you like to point out where I said it was or is acceptable?

I didn't defend the Tories either. I don't defend anything that I have a problem with. I say it how it is.

You say about Del boy and the very occasional comment. You are missing the point as usual. There was shows based on racism. But you won't have seen them as they are banned now. Then you have those which are split on thought. Mind your language is one of those.

And Hatton was allowed back in. But after the backlash they look to have reversed the decision. This is good news. But you are trying to change what has happened here also.

 

[Astute]

They aren't excuses, the media misrepresents his positions constantly and have done since he was made leader. This isn't my opinion, it's objective fact. More widely they have done a hatchet job on the British public to vote against their own self-interest. This is why Corbyn closed a 20+ point polling gap when he was allowed to campaign and given air time to push his policies. I care about the policies more than the man, I've always said that. But if you're trying to argue that the press have no role in public opinion of the man you're objectively wrong.

Same for Ed Miliband before him.

You are changing what I have said and you will have those who defend Corbyn agree with you. This is how this thread goes.

Labour will not get voted in with him as leader. Too many skeletons in the closet. Too much still occurring. Bullying which some say isn't happening. But those who say it isn't happening are not a part of the Labour party so don't have a clue.

You want what those who have left the Labour party want. But you are against them because they have spoken out against Corbyn. Says it all to me.

 

[martcov]

The law allows the Home Office to deprive citizenship provided that the person wouldn't become stateless as a result. If she is a Bangladeshi citizen clearly there is no issue.

Bangla Desh says she is not their citizen. She says she’s never been there.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why do you have to lie to try and make a point?

Or would you like to point out where I said it was or is acceptable?

I didn't defend the Tories either. I don't defend anything that I have a problem with. I say it how it is.

You say about Del boy and the very occasional comment. You are missing the point as usual. There was shows based on racism. But you won't have seen them as they are banned now. Then you have those which are split on thought. Mind your language is one of those.

And Hatton was allowed back in. But after the backlash they look to have reversed the decision. This is good news. But you are trying to change what has happened here also.

Rejoining the party doesn't require anyone to check your ID or vet your past. You go online and pay. There wasn't any debating over it and he was suspended almost immediately-there is no controversy to be had. But here we are trying to portray fringe members far down the food chain as representative of the party. When you say 'but that's how it was back then' in regards to Tory policies of the time, you're heavily implying that it was acceptable/understandable. I don't quite know what Labour are meant to do to persuade you that it isn't plotting a second Holocaust. Give me the evidence of institutional bigotry in the Labour Party, or stop making the claims.

You are changing what I have said and you will have those who defend Corbyn agree with you. This is how this thread goes.

Labour will not get voted in with him as leader. Too many skeletons in the closet. Too much still occurring. Bullying which some say isn't happening. But those who say it isn't happening are not a part of the Labour party so don't have a clue.

You want what those who have left the Labour party want. But you are against them because they have spoken out against Corbyn. Says it all to me.

I'm against them because they've undermined the party and don't see why they can't join the Lib Dems if centrism/opposing Brexit is really what they care about. They've also made unsubstantiated claims of institutional racism in the party. You routinely misinterpret what others say, you've been doing it throughout this thread either because you can't draw conclusions properly or because you see just what you want to see. I don't know how many times I have to say that I would be glad for Corbyn to go if there were another with the same policies but less baggage. I've also not heard a single suggestion from you or others about who that replacement should be.

Whoever is Labour leader has to please large groups of voters in their base who support and oppose Brexit. They will lose a lot of votes if they back the PM or if they call for another referendum. Again, I don't see you giving a way forward for whoever is leader.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

don't see why they can't join the Lib Dems if centrism/opposing Brexit is really what they care about.

tbf I don't quite understand this either. It'd be a lot easier for the third party in Britain to potentially wield influence again too - although given they're down to a rump thanks to the idiotic decision to go into coalition with the Tories, maybe that'd be a bad thing!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Bangla Desh says she is not their citizen. She says she’s never been there.

Nobody wants an IS bride as their citizen, that's the truth of it. But if her mum is Bangladeshi, that makes her a Bangladeshi citizen under their laws. If that is the case the decision will stand, if it turns out to be wrong then the Home Office will have to relent.

 

[clint van damme]

Brexit: Japan trade deal will be late

Our trade secretary. What a guy.

as long as the other 39 are signed the day after Brexit as promised I won't hold it against him missing out on just this one. I'm sure they're all good to go. No way a serving government minister could get it so spectacularly wrong is there? Imagine if it was Diane Abbott, the gammon would be having a field day, wonder why that is?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

tbf I don't quite understand this either. It'd be a lot easier for the third party in Britain to potentially wield influence again too - although given they're down to a rump thanks to the idiotic decision to go into coalition with the Tories, maybe that'd be a bad thing!

Says quite a lot about the Lib Dems that they're chancing it as an independent group instead

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

as long as the other 39 are signed the day after Brexit as promised I won't hold it against him missing out on just this one. I'm sure they're all good to go. No way a serving government minister could get it so spectacularly wrong is there? Imagine if it was Diane Abbott, the gammon would be having a field day, wonder why that is?

That's because Diane Abbott is a bona fide cretin

 

[Ian1779]

0.08%? Would love to know how you got to that amount.

It seems you are misunderstanding what is being said.

Corbyn keeps giving gifts out to the Tories. He should get rid of the undesirables. But they are now able to join when they haven't been able to join since getting kicked out over 30 years ago. Then you have the bullying accusations. It has been going on for a fair bit now. Or today where he spoke out against what nearly everyone wants when he didn't have to.

Yet some try to blame the media for his gaffes. And that is what they are at least if you don't believe what many are saying.

Corbyn as leader is a liability to the Labour party. And that is without the many skeletons in the closet. The problem is that we don't have anyone who jumps to mind.

But what makes me laugh is those who have left the Labour party want to stay in the EU. Anything like another referendum or whatever will do. They have said about Corbyn not doing enough. Yet those who want exactly what those who have left the Labour party and those who have left the Tories to join them get attacked by those who are defending Corbyn.

Apologies it should have read 0.8% - still not what I would call endemic.

You think Corbyn is a liability, you have the benefit of the time context far more than me. I don’t agree with you, and don’t see him in the same way.

I’m sorry but the bullying accusations that you keep raising - how are they any different to the personal abuse received by Diane Abbott. Whether you view her as competent or not, the vitriol is as bad as or worse than any alleged bullying suffered by Woodcock. Seems like a lot of people only see it as bullying when the direction of travel is in a certain direction.

That aside, his policies for change would be good for this country. But any future leader will face the same treatment... almost better for him to take the brunt of it if it means in the future there is someone that will take forward his manifesto and deliver it.

 

[Ian1779]

Some 15 year olds look and act more mature than some 25 year olds. You can't say yes or no without knowing any details. That is why there are different rules for those 13 or under.

Then you have this 15 year old. Just had her 3rd child. She is an adult. But what disturbs me is the lack of remorse. Can someone who knows about terrorism become a person to be trusted? I would prefer to know my fellow Brits are safe. All those who went out there can stay out there. And I don't care who disagrees. They went to rape and murder. They are not civilised people.

I agree with you - it’s her lack of remorse that makes half of me think she should never step foot back into the UK ever again.Do we have a duty to identify why and how she was radicalised? I don’t know.
On the other hand, this country entertains people like the Saudi’s that have killed thousands - and then we get our Foreign Secretary to ask the Germans to lift a weapons ban for them as its hurting trade. Do these actions make our country safe? I would argue no.

 

[clint van damme]

That's because Diane Abbott is a bona fide cretin

and Liam Fox isn't?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

and Liam Fox isn't?

He's a massive one. Abbott gets criticism not for the colour of her skin, or her gender, but because she's crap and not very bright.

 

[clint van damme]

He's a massive one. Abbott gets criticism not for the colour of her skin, or her gender, but because she's crap and not very bright.

so Phillip Hammond got the same amount of shit for his HS2 gaff, (out by 20 billion), as she got for her police funding gaff which was out by tens of millions? OK mate, you tell yourself that.

 

[Astute]

Rejoining the party doesn't require anyone to check your ID or vet your past. You go online and pay. There wasn't any debating over it and he was suspended almost immediately-there is no controversy to be had. But here we are trying to portray fringe members far down the food chain as representative of the party. When you say 'but that's how it was back then' in regards to Tory policies of the time, you're heavily implying that it was acceptable/understandable. I don't quite know what Labour are meant to do to persuade you that it isn't plotting a second Holocaust. Give me the evidence of institutional bigotry in the Labour Party, or stop making the claims.



I'm against them because they've undermined the party and don't see why they can't join the Lib Dems if centrism/opposing Brexit is really what they care about. They've also made unsubstantiated claims of institutional racism in the party. You routinely misinterpret what others say, you've been doing it throughout this thread either because you can't draw conclusions properly or because you see just what you want to see. I don't know how many times I have to say that I would be glad for Corbyn to go if there were another with the same policies but less baggage. I've also not heard a single suggestion from you or others about who that replacement should be.

Whoever is Labour leader has to please large groups of voters in their base who support and oppose Brexit. They will lose a lot of votes if they back the PM or if they call for another referendum. Again, I don't see you giving a way forward for whoever is leader.

Vet his past?

He got kicked out of the Labour party. Are you telling me that the Labour party these days is so clueless that they don't know about Hatton? Or is it you are trying to hide the fact that Corbyn backed him back in the 80's?

 

[Astute]

I agree with you - it’s her lack of remorse that makes half of me think she should never step foot back into the UK ever again.Do we have a duty to identify why and how she was radicalised? I don’t know.
On the other hand, this country entertains people like the Saudi’s that have killed thousands - and then we get our Foreign Secretary to ask the Germans to lift a weapons ban for them as its hurting trade. Do these actions make our country safe? I would argue no.

Oil is the key word. If you have oil you have countries like our own turning a blind eye to what you do. It is all wrong. They have us by the balls and we play along with it. I look forward to the day when we don't rely on oil.

 

[Ian1779]

He's a massive one. Abbott gets criticism not for the colour of her skin, or her gender, but because she's crap and not very bright.

She is the most racially abused MP in this country.

 

[Astute]

tbf I don't quite understand this either. It'd be a lot easier for the third party in Britain to potentially wield influence again too - although given they're down to a rump thanks to the idiotic decision to go into coalition with the Tories, maybe that'd be a bad thing!

Maybe they are not Lib Dems so won't join the Lib Dems. They were finished when they got into bed with the Tories.

My view is that they see a future in the EU as more important than being in the party they have just left. And they are getting a head start on the party Farage is starting up if we don't leave the EU next month.

Them getting a head start on Farage makes me happy with what they are doing. Because I wouldn't want the risk of Farage leading a party of any power. And many won't want to vote Tory or Labour after this fiasco.

 

[Astute]

Nobody wants an IS bride as their citizen, that's the truth of it. But if her mum is Bangladeshi, that makes her a Bangladeshi citizen under their laws. If that is the case the decision will stand, if it turns out to be wrong then the Home Office will have to relent.

Bangladesh has already denied her everything. Nobody wants anything to do with terrorists.

 

[Astute]

Apologies it should have read 0.8% - still not what I would call endemic.

You think Corbyn is a liability, you have the benefit of the time context far more than me. I don’t agree with you, and don’t see him in the same way.

I’m sorry but the bullying accusations that you keep raising - how are they any different to the personal abuse received by Diane Abbott. Whether you view her as competent or not, the vitriol is as bad as or worse than any alleged bullying suffered by Woodcock. Seems like a lot of people only see it as bullying when the direction of travel is in a certain direction.

That aside, his policies for change would be good for this country. But any future leader will face the same treatment... almost better for him to take the brunt of it if it means in the future there is someone that will take forward his manifesto and deliver it.

So you think Corbyn is a good thing for the Labour party?

Abbott wasn't exactly bullied. She was shown up to be clueless. There is a big difference.

Sounds like you would be happy if nobody said anything about what is wrong with the Labour party.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

so Phillip Hammond got the same amount of shit for his HS2 gaff, (out by 20 billion), as she got for her police funding gaff which was out by tens of millions? OK mate, you tell yourself that.

??? Not sure how you've worked out I'm a Tory lover...

 

[Astute]

so Phillip Hammond got the same amount of shit for his HS2 gaff, (out by 20 billion), as she got for her police funding gaff which was out by tens of millions? OK mate, you tell yourself that.

Out by much more than 20b. Now they are trying to rip off owners of land and buildings to keep the amount down.

But on the other hand you have someone who is given numbers on what something will cost and you have someone who worked out that police officers get paid £200 A year.

We should have people who are good with financial matters in charge of financial matters. But in politics it is if your face fits. Or if you have previously shagged your boss.

 

[Astute]

She is the most racially abused MP in this country.

When was that?

 

[Astute]

??? Not sure how you've worked out I'm a Tory lover...

You are Labour 101%. That is very obvious.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Vet his past?

He got kicked out of the Labour party. Are you telling me that the Labour party these days is so clueless that they don't know about Hatton? Or is it you are trying to hide the fact that Corbyn backed him back in the 80's?

No my point is they can't physically vet you at the moment you sign up. It was brought up shortly afterwards, they meet to make a decision, they suspend him, he accepts it. Job done. If Corbyn backed a council which hired taxis to help lay workers off obviously I disagree with him there. It is possible to not unanimously support or oppose someone...