The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (16 Viewers)

[Malaka]

Did you see the programme?

Rees-Mogg is a tosser, there is no getting away from that (IMO). And I agree he totally messed up when trying to play down Churchill's deeds. Yes Churchill was a great leader who led the country through the most difficult time in our history. However, I wonder if Churchill had been captured by his adversaries before the second world war, would have have been tried as a criminal? Probably

 

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[Grendel]

Every week without fail. Did you see the link? Clearly you didn’t because if you did the only comment you would have made is shame on Rees-Mogg. There really is no defending him when you compare what he said to facts.

What was the question about?

 

[Grendel]

Rees-Mogg is a tosser, there is no getting away from that (IMO). And I agree he totally messed up when trying to play down Churchill's deeds. Yes Churchill was a great leader who led the country through the most difficult time in our history. However, I wonder if Churchill had been captured by his adversaries before the second world war, would have have been tried as a criminal? Probably

Why would he?

 

[skybluetony176]

What was the question about?

You keep defending those images. It could have been about if the moon is made of cheese or not. It’s irrelevant. His reply was historically incorrect and was an attempt to justify the concentration camps. Fact is Churchill is a conundrum. That’s all he had to say. Acknowledge his achievements but also acknowledge his failures. He tried to make out there was nothing to see and rewrite history in the process to the applause of morons. I would hope that if the majority of those who applauded him have seen photos of the camps since feel ashamed of the applause.

 

[skybluetony176]

Rees-Mogg is a tosser, there is no getting away from that (IMO). And I agree he totally messed up when trying to play down Churchill's deeds. Yes Churchill was a great leader who led the country through the most difficult time in our history. However, I wonder if Churchill had been captured by his adversaries before the second world war, would have have been tried as a criminal? Probably

Some people seem intent on making Churchill some infallible deity. He’s just a man. It really shouldn’t be difficult to understand that he has achievements and failures. Especially given the period he lived through and served his country through.

 

[martcov]

Rees-Mogg is a tosser, there is no getting away from that (IMO). And I agree he totally messed up when trying to play down Churchill's deeds. Yes Churchill was a great leader who led the country through the most difficult time in our history. However, I wonder if Churchill had been captured by his adversaries before the second world war, would have have been tried as a criminal? Probably

That was in fact the plan. The Nazis wanted to win, obviously, and bring Churchill to justice.

 

[martcov]

Why would he?

Because the Nazis wanted to blame someone for the perceived war crimes. They were also totting up the bomb damage to their cities in the hope of asking for reparations from the UK. Bombing civilian areas of German cities was considered to be a war crime by the Germans. Churchill and Bomber Harris would have been put on trial if the Germans had won.

 

[Grendel]

Because the Nazis wanted to blame someone for the perceived war crimes. They were also totting up the bomb damage to their cities in the hope of asking for reparations from the UK. Bombing civilian areas of German cities was considered to be a war crime by the Germans. Churchill and Bomber Harris would have been put on trial if the Germans had won.

You are coming across as someone who wanted the Nazis to win

 

[chiefdave]

Seems the Independent Group have said they will back May.

Allen has said they will do nothing that might trigger an election (as they will lose their seats) and Shuker has suggested they could replace the DUP and have a confidence and supply arrangement with the Conservatives.

 

[martcov]

You are coming across as someone who wanted the Nazis to win

No I am saying what the Nazis wanted and why. Destroying Dresden, as an example, which was full of refugees and not properly defended as it was thought not to be a military target was a war crime. Had it been done to us there would have been a trial. Nazi viewpoint or not, there was also criticism in the UK. Especially from churches.

 

[Sick Boy]

No I am saying what the Nazis wanted and why. Destroying Dresden, as an example, which was full of refugees and not properly defended as it was thought not to be a military target was a war crime. Had it been done to us there would have been a trial. Nazi viewpoint or not, there was also criticism in the UK. Especially from churches.

Wasn’t that seen as ‘revenge’ for Coventry?

 

[Astute]

No I am saying what the Nazis wanted and why. Destroying Dresden, as an example, which was full of refugees and not properly defended as it was thought not to be a military target was a war crime. Had it been done to us there would have been a trial. Nazi viewpoint or not, there was also criticism in the UK. Especially from churches.

War crime?

Germany committed atrocities throughout Europe before Dresden. Women and children were murdered all over. Have you ever heard of Oradour-sur-Glane? This wasn't bombing. It was pure murder. The village remains are still there. Nothing has changed. I last visited last year with a mate and my family. Over 600 unarmed people murdered by the Nazis.

Oradour-sur-Glane 10 June 1944 (a war-crime in France)

How about picking a country in Europe where the Nazis took over and look at what happened.

Bombing? So the first bombing of innocent people alone was by England? We won the war because of Germany bombing citizens instead of military targets.

Dresden happened in 1945. Would you like to list all the places Germany bombed before then where the aim was to kill citizens? Or how about the V1 and V2?

Stop your love in of Germany. Comments like you have made here makes you look a right XXXX

 

[Grendel]

No I am saying what the Nazis wanted and why. Destroying Dresden, as an example, which was full of refugees and not properly defended as it was thought not to be a military target was a war crime. Had it been done to us there would have been a trial. Nazi viewpoint or not, there was also criticism in the UK. Especially from churches.

Do you think it was wrong?

 

[skybluetony176]

I don’t remember seeing let’s spend it on consultants instead on the side of the bus.

Ministers spend £100m on Brexit help

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Pitiful pro brexit rally from tragalgar square to downing st today. With my kids but did enjoy a laugh with the police outside downing st about numbers and singing come in a taxi until my kids told me to stop causing trouble

 

[Nick]

singing come in a taxi until my kids told me to stop causing trouble

How does that song go?

 

[martcov]

War crime?

Germany committed atrocities throughout Europe before Dresden. Women and children were murdered all over. Have you ever heard of Oradour-sur-Glane? This wasn't bombing. It was pure murder. The village remains are still there. Nothing has changed. I last visited last year with a mate and my family. Over 600 unarmed people murdered by the Nazis.

Oradour-sur-Glane 10 June 1944 (a war-crime in France)

How about picking a country in Europe where the Nazis took over and look at what happened.

Bombing? So the first bombing of innocent people alone was by England? We won the war because of Germany bombing citizens instead of military targets.

Dresden happened in 1945. Would you like to list all the places Germany bombed before then where the aim was to kill citizens? Or how about the V1 and V2?

Stop your love in of Germany. Comments like you have made here makes you look a right XXXX

Someone asked If Churchill would have been put on trial if Germany had won. The factual answer is yes. Someone asked why. The factual answer is because of the bombing of civilian areas in German cities ( amongst other things ).

Now you go on a rant about German war crimes. Nothing to do with the question or answer. You accuse me of a love of Germany and being a xxxx. I just quoted what I know about. Why don’t you read the posts, including the questions which I was answering?

 

[martcov]

Do you think it was wrong?

Destroying Dresden and killing thousands of civilians was obviously wrong. It wasn’t a military target and was known to contain masses of refugees fleeing the Russians as well as French forced workers and UK prisoners. It was condemned by some religious people in GB at the time.

I am surprised that you even ask if killing defenceless citizens is wrong.

The ISIS bride says that she saw such things as the Manchester bombing as justifiable because of raids which killed civilians in ISIS areas. If you claim that Dresden is justified because of German war crimes against civilians, you are using the exact same argument as the ISIS bride which is enraging everyone in the UK.

Anyway. The original question was about whether Churchill would have been put on trial by the Nazis.

The answer is yes. Bombing civilians would have been a charge. The Nazis would probably have claimed that their own crimes were necessary and/ or committed by over zealous commanders.

I am not justifying the Nazis viewpoint, just pointing out how they saw things, or rather how they would have presented things to their citizens.

 

[martcov]

Wasn’t that seen as ‘revenge’ for Coventry?

Well, that was claimed and there used to be a display about the bombing of Dresden in the crypt of Coventry Cathedral. I don’t know whether there still is. The idea of the church was to show that the Germans suffered as well. Probably get another rant from Astute against the German loving cathedral.

When I was in other cities, such as Nuremberg, that was also claimed. So the revenge was widespread, not just Dresden.

The tactic of Feuersturm was first recognised in Coventry and then used by us against various German cities, including Dresden.

 

[Astute]

Someone asked If Churchill would have been put on trial if Germany had won. The factual answer is yes. Someone asked why. The factual answer is because of the bombing of civilian areas in German cities ( amongst other things ).

Now you go on a rant about German war crimes. Nothing to do with the question or answer. You accuse me of a love of Germany and being a xxxx. I just quoted what I know about. Why don’t you read the posts, including the questions which I was answering?

Civilian bombing?

So are you saying that Germany that heavily bombed our civilians and were the first ones to use long range ballistic guided missiles which were aimed at our civilians. Before that Germany used the V1 which was the first cruise missile to attack the citizens of London. It was the first of what was called 'vengeance weapons' used to terrify the citizens of London. Germany destroyed cities like Coventry as you should well know. How about Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Southampton, Sheffield and more? Yet we committed war crimes against Germany because we bombed one city? Do you count WW2 as a game where Germany could do what it wanted yet everyone else had to play by the rules all the way through?

And how about the war debts owed by Germany? They never got paid but these countries owe Germany a lot of money.

All you want to do is have a go at the UK and England. But let's get to the truth instead of just Mart facts. Members if my family got killed by the Nazis. This includes civilians. My Grandad joined the navy at 15 telling them he was 18. He was on 3 ships that got sunk by the Nazis. He got medals for saving people. He took loads of pictures which were stamped as top secret and not allowed to be published. I have seen what it was like.

But it doesn't matter that Germany continually bombed our cities in 1940 and 1941. Then Germany continued to bomb our cities and civilians from 1943. You are only interested in Dresden in 1945.

Yes we should all be hung for doing for a small amount of time that Germany did to us through most of the war.

 

[Astute]

Destroying Dresden and killing thousands of civilians was obviously wrong. It wasn’t a military target and was known to contain masses of refugees fleeing the Russians as well as French forced workers and UK prisoners. It was condemned by some religious people in GB at the time.

I am surprised that you even ask if killing defenceless citizens is wrong.

The ISIS bride says that she saw such things as the Manchester bombing as justifiable because of raids which killed civilians in ISIS areas. If you claim that Dresden is justified because of German war crimes against civilians, you are using the exact same argument as the ISIS bride which is enraging everyone in the UK.

Anyway. The original question was about whether Churchill would have been put on trial by the Nazis.

The answer is yes. Bombing civilians would have been a charge. The Nazis would probably have claimed that their own crimes were necessary and/ or committed by over zealous commanders.

I am not justifying the Nazis viewpoint, just pointing out how they saw things, or rather how they would have presented things to their citizens.

How did you get to the point of over zealous commanders? So you don't know the history on something you are trying to preach.

So it was necessary for Germany to bomb our citizens throughout the war? I suppose Coventry cathedral was a military target. IIRC Coventry had about 1/3 of the civilian homes lost to bombs in 1 night.

You say you are from Coventry yet you are more concerned about what eventually happened to Germany. Yes the same Germany that started it all off by trying to take over the whole of Europe. And Germany would have succeeded if it wasn't for England.

 

[Astute]

Well, that was claimed and there used to be a display about the bombing of Dresden in the crypt of Coventry Cathedral. I don’t know whether there still is. The idea of the church was to show that the Germans suffered as well. Probably get another rant from Astute against the German loving cathedral.

When I was in other cities, such as Nuremberg, that was also claimed. So the revenge was widespread, not just Dresden.

The tactic of Feuersturm was first recognised in Coventry and then used by us against various German cities, including Dresden.

Rant from me?

People like you piss me off. Poor old Germany I suppose. Germany caused the deaths of untold millions. And this is without the murdering of the Jews. Germany bombed and killed civilians all the way through the war. Yes Dresden is a regret. Every civilian death on all sides is a regret. But also every forces death should be.

If you want to preach about Dresden go and find somewhere else to look for sympathy. Coventry is not a good place for you to look for German sympathy and get people to back you up when looking at calling the English war criminals.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Where the absolute fuck is it written that commenting on one action means you approve of another?

 

[Grendel]

Destroying Dresden and killing thousands of civilians was obviously wrong. It wasn’t a military target and was known to contain masses of refugees fleeing the Russians as well as French forced workers and UK prisoners. It was condemned by some religious people in GB at the time.

I am surprised that you even ask if killing defenceless citizens is wrong.

The ISIS bride says that she saw such things as the Manchester bombing as justifiable because of raids which killed civilians in ISIS areas. If you claim that Dresden is justified because of German war crimes against civilians, you are using the exact same argument as the ISIS bride which is enraging everyone in the UK.

Anyway. The original question was about whether Churchill would have been put on trial by the Nazis.

The answer is yes. Bombing civilians would have been a charge. The Nazis would probably have claimed that their own crimes were necessary and/ or committed by over zealous commanders.

I am not justifying the Nazis viewpoint, just pointing out how they saw things, or rather how they would have presented things to their citizens.

You really are disgusting

 

[martcov]

Rant from me?

People like you piss me off. Poor old Germany I suppose. Germany caused the deaths of untold millions. And this is without the murdering of the Jews. Germany bombed and killed civilians all the way through the war. Yes Dresden is a regret. Every civilian death on all sides is a regret. But also every forces death should be.

If you want to preach about Dresden go and find somewhere else to look for sympathy. Coventry is not a good place for you to look for German sympathy and get people to back you up when looking at calling the English war criminals.

You are nuts. I just pointed out where to look in Coventry for a description of the attacks on Dresden. In a building destroyed by the the Nazis near a part that was rebuilt by Germans after the war who were ashamed at the crimes committed by their government. The centre for international reconciliation. Coventry cross of nails Society is World reknown for it’s work on reconciliation.

Pity it went over your thick bigoted skull. I was asked what if the Germans had won. Read the fxxking post you clown.

 

[martcov]

You really are disgusting

What? You fxxking bigot. You are implying you are for the mass bombing of civilians. Go fxxk yourself you right wing bigot.

 

[martcov]

Civilian bombing?

So are you saying that Germany that heavily bombed our civilians and were the first ones to use long range ballistic guided missiles which were aimed at our civilians. Before that Germany used the V1 which was the first cruise missile to attack the citizens of London. It was the first of what was called 'vengeance weapons' used to terrify the citizens of London. Germany destroyed cities like Coventry as you should well know. How about Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Southampton, Sheffield and more? Yet we committed war crimes against Germany because we bombed one city? Do you count WW2 as a game where Germany could do what it wanted yet everyone else had to play by the rules all the way through?

And how about the war debts owed by Germany? They never got paid but these countries owe Germany a lot of money.

All you want to do is have a go at the UK and England. But let's get to the truth instead of just Mart facts. Members if my family got killed by the Nazis. This includes civilians. My Grandad joined the navy at 15 telling them he was 18. He was on 3 ships that got sunk by the Nazis. He got medals for saving people. He took loads of pictures which were stamped as top secret and not allowed to be published. I have seen what it was like.

But it doesn't matter that Germany continually bombed our cities in 1940 and 1941. Then Germany continued to bomb our cities and civilians from 1943. You are only interested in Dresden in 1945.

Yes we should all be hung for doing for a small amount of time that Germany did to us through most of the war.

What the fxxk are you on about? You are a crazed loon. I was asked a question, I gave a factual answer. I am not bothered about your rant. It has nothing to do with the question or the answer.

My father trained to be a bomb aimer in a Lancaster as a result of seeing Coventry bombed. But, that is not relevant to the question or to the answer.

And bombing of civilian targets as Assad does in Syria, or the Germans did, or the USA does, or we did, is still seen as a war crime.

That is international and is not an attack on the UK.

Yes military deaths are still deaths, but are accepted as a part of a war. Both sides will target military. You accept that when you start a war.

 

[Grendel]

What? You fxxking bigot. You are implying you are for the mass bombing of civilians. Go fxxk yourself you right wing bigot.

Keep digging. This is priceless.

I’m still not sure why Churchill would be singled out anyway

 

[skybluetony176]

Keep digging. This is priceless.

I’m still not sure why Churchill would be singled out anyway

Funny how you’ve asked two posters now if they’ve seen the program as if that will somehow justify you justifying South African concentration camps and then state that you’re still not sure why Winston Churchill would be singled out anyway. That statement alone tells me that you in fact didn’t watch the program yourself because if you had you wouldn’t be asking the question.

 

[martcov]

Keep digging. This is priceless.

I’m still not sure why Churchill would be singled out anyway

Churchill was our wartime leader. They would have done the same we did. Arrest the leaders and charge them with war crimes.

Or do you think they would have bestowed Churchill with honours?

Priceless. You’ve shown your true right wing colours. As you did trying to deflect from Rees Mogg claiming that we invented concentration camps in the Boer War to be nice to the people whose farms and livestock we had destroyed. That a quarter died, mainly women and children was just bad luck.

All part of the current claims about plucky Brits and how exceptional we are. We aren’t. Some of us good people, but there a lot of tossers in our population. As can be seen from the Brexit debate.

Latest dumb embarrassment for the UK. The foreign minister claiming that Slovenia was a Russian Vassal state. Even mixed up the nationality of his wife whilst in Japan.

Shows the lack of general knowledge in the UK. ( the wife bit was just his own stupidity),

 

[Grendel]

Funny how you’ve asked two posters now if they’ve seen the program as if that will somehow justify you justifying South African concentration camps and then state that you’re still not sure why Winston Churchill would be singled out anyway. That statement alone tells me that you in fact didn’t watch the program yourself because if you had you wouldn’t be asking the question.

In terms of Dresden no I’ve absolutely no idea. Nice to see the German ally has landed though

 

[skybluetony176]

On a side note my grandmothers brother was involved in Dresden and once he learned about what happened on the ground immediately after the war he felt a great deal of shame over it. Having watched a few documentaries on it it also seems to be the common theme amongst the airmen involved.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Did you see the programme?

Probably not but that doesn’t matter to the likes Mart and Tony who spend 24/7 on here trawling for anything negative they can find about the UK and then liking each others posts.

On the subject of the Left’s attempts to rewrite history, Dan Hannan wrote an excellent article in The Telegraph last week:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/16/left-wing-slurs-churchill-part-bigger-war-british-history/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_androidshare_AsCjWylj8mb6

 

[martcov]

In terms of Dresden no I’ve absolutely no idea. Nice to see the German ally has landed though

Exactly my point. You and 17,4 million people showed your absolute lack of knowledge on Europe by voting leave.

Pathetic

 

[Grendel]

Churchill was our wartime leader. They would have done the same we did. Arrest the leaders and charge them with war crimes.

Or do you think they would have bestowed Churchill with honours?

Priceless. You’ve shown your true right wing colours. As you did trying to deflect from Rees Mogg claiming that we invented concentration camps in the Boer War to be nice to the people whose farms and livestock we had destroyed. That a quarter died, mainly women and children was just bad luck.

All part of the current claims about plucky Brits and how exceptional we are. We aren’t. Some of us good people, but there a lot of tossers in our population. As can be seen from the Brexit debate.

Latest dumb embarrassment for the UK. The foreign minister claiming that Slovenia was a Russian Vassal state. Even mixed up the nationality of his wife whilst in Japan.

Shows the lack of general knowledge in the UK. ( the wife bit was just his own stupidity),

Eisenhower, Stalin and Churchill agreed the strategy in 1943 to target cities. The US bombers did actually I think outnumber the uk ones.

The notion you actually believe The National Sociallst Party would have conducted legitimate trials rather than commit wholesale executatioms suggests a legitimacy of their behaviours.

It’s genuinely a fascinating insight into who you really are and what you really think