The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (70 Viewers)

[SkyBlueDom26]

Not on no deal or May’s deal, or on what we now know about Brexit.

So then, lets put it to the people with-
No Deal / May's deal

We've had the one on staying or leaving already

 

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[martcov]

Sky reported it 30 minutes before statement made in the House

He had also told parliament he would rule after the motion was pulled to block another vote on the same thing. No clairvoyance needed. He could have left it later to be a real dick, but he didn’t. The convention was known since 1604, it isn’t really a surprise.

 

[martcov]

So then, lets put it to the people with-
No Deal / May's deal

We've had the one on staying or leaving already

So leave out the majority of voters who now want remain and call it a democratic vote? No mate. That ain’t going to happen.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

So leave out the majority of voters who now want remain and call it a democratic vote? No mate. That ain’t going to happen.

Prove to me that the majority of voters want to 'remain'.....

I don't get how people can't just accept a result, if leave lost would all the people who voted leave be constantly moaning or just take the result on the chin?

 

[martcov]

So then, lets put it to the people with-
No Deal / May's deal

We've had the one on staying or leaving already

Are you joining Farage’s ramblers? Get your walking boots out and show your Brexit commitment. Nige will be in the pub having a drink to you.

 

[Grendel]

So leave out the majority of voters who now want remain and call it a democratic vote? No mate. That ain’t going to happen.

So in a year if the mood changes and the majority want to leave (I’m not convinced there’s a majority to remain now) then we’d have another go would we?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Are you joining Farage’s ramblers? Get your walking boots out and show your Brexit commitment. Nige will be in the pub having a drink to you.

We're leaving the EU

 

[martcov]

Prove to me that the majority of voters want to 'remain'.....

I don't get how people can't just accept a result, if leave lost would all the people who voted leave be constantly moaning or just take the result on the chin?

According to Farage it would mean work to be done. So, the answer is no they wouldn’t take it on the chin and forget about it.

I don’t get why you are so scared of the people having a vote on the present situation. All polls show remain in front.

I would say, compare the Brexit Betrayal march of mainly older men , with the forthcoming People‘s Vote march in London as an indicator of people‘s feelings.

 

[martcov]

We're leaving the EU

Really? Anything could happen.

 

[martcov]

So in a year if the mood changes and the majority want to leave (I’m not convinced there’s a majority to remain now) then we’d have another go would we?

No we wouldn’t. This is the vote on Brexit. That’s it. No one can claim that we didn’t know what we were voting for after the people’s vote. Hopefully there will be less criminal activity and the campaign will be better regulated. The last vote was not on what we have now on the table. May‘s deal didn’t exist and it was claimed we would be leaving with a great deal sailing into a glorious sunset. Floundering on a rock whilst still in the Harbour was not an option at the time.

 

[Grendel]

No we wouldn’t. This is the vote on Brexit. That’s it. No one can claim that we didn’t know what we were voting for after the people’s vote. Hopefully there will be less criminal activity and the campaign will be better regulated. The last vote was not on what we have now on the table. May‘s deal didn’t exist and it was claimed we would be leaving with a great deal sailing into a glorious sunset. Floundering on a rock whilst still in the Harbour was not an option at the time.

Hilarious so you’re afraid of further votes.

Why what are you frightened of?

So you’d run the manifesto on the clear knowledge we will never have an opportunity to leave ever again?

 

[tisza]

Leavers when asked cited immigration and sovereignty as the two main reasons for voting leave. Wanting less foreigners suggests you don’t like having too many foreigners around. Seeing as leavers also blame foreigners for everything from crime to potholes, lack of affordable housing etc, I get the impression that a dislike of foreigners was a strong motivation for leave voters.

You also have to note that immigration is a significant issue with remainders. Has pretty consistently been around 40 % that say it was too high and needed various levels of reduction.
Attitudes to immigration compared to other EU populations are not wildly different in the main.
If any other EU country had a leave referendum immigration and sovereignty would also be among the main issues.

 

[martcov]

Hilarious so you’re afraid of further votes.

Why what are you frightened of?

So you’d run the manifesto on the clear knowledge we will never have an opportunity to leave ever again?

I am not afraid of further votes. I want a vote on something we can see and what we know a bit more about. I don’t know whether there will ever be another vote, but I would ask the people now in the knowledge that unless anything substantial and unforeseen happens, there would be at least a period of stability. No one wants a ping pong battle of voting back and forth for the foreseeable future. ( I would hope ).

 

[tisza]

May‘s deal with an amendment that it has to be ratified by the people, against a remain option and a no deal option.

How does this work if no one option gets more than 50%?

 

[Grendel]

I am not afraid of further votes. I want a vote on something we can see and what we know a bit more about. I don’t know whether there will ever be another vote, but I would ask the people now in the knowledge that unless anything substantial and unforeseen happens, there would be at least a period of stability. No one wants a ping pong battle of voting back and forth for the foreseeable future. ( I would hope ).

Well that’s exactly what you want until you get your own way

 

[skybluetony176]

He had also told parliament he would rule after the motion was pulled to block another vote on the same thing. No clairvoyance needed. He could have left it later to be a real dick, but he didn’t. The convention was known since 1604, it isn’t really a surprise.

A few political commentators were also making the point last week. If this came as a surprise to the government it’s yet another measurement of how incompetent they are. Can’t even watch the news.

 

[martcov]

You also have to note that immigration is a significant issue with remainders. Has pretty consistently been around 40 % that say it was too high and needed various levels of reduction.
Attitudes to immigration compared to other EU populations are not wildly different in the main.
If any other EU country had a leave referendum immigration and sovereignty would also be among the main issues.

Yes, I agree, but the anger about immigration does seem more with leavers. The sovereignty part seems more relevant in the UK than here in Germany. Good reasons for that. Also the debate in the UK with hard sell on these issues from people like Farage backed by Banks and the tabloids, has polarised the UK. We haven’t had such a vicious battle in Germany, even allowing for AfD and co and well over a million refugees in a short space of time.

 

[tisza]

He had also told parliament he would rule after the motion was pulled to block another vote on the same thing. No clairvoyance needed. He could have left it later to be a real dick, but he didn’t. The convention was known since 1604, it isn’t really a surprise.

Kind of irony that he cites a convention created before we had a civil war to establish parliamentary sovereignty

 

[martcov]

Well that’s exactly what you want until you get your own way

Obviously it isn’t as I have repeatedly said. I want Brexit settled. I don’t want to be saying they were lied to, cheated and the referendum was flawed for eternity. I want a fairer referendum on known facts including the option of no deal and remain. That would be more than one yes/no question. Then I would be convinced that people had made a choice based on facts and not pie in the sky. If you think leave would win, great. The second question would be on how to leave: May’s deal or, if that isn’t a real Brexit for you, then no deal. I think people are tired of it and that the argument has to be settled with a second vote.

 

[martcov]

Kind of irony that he cites a convention created before we had a civil war to establish parliamentary sovereignty

Well the last time parliament was ignored it didn’t turn out to well. Better to stick to convention.

 

[martcov]

How does this work if no one option gets more than 50%?

Question 1: leave or remain as before. Remain majority = remain. Leave majority = leave. Second question: if leave were to win would you support a) May’s deal b) no deal

Both questions must be answered or it is a spoiled vote.

The vote would then be either ratifying May’s deal or no deal. No more arguments between May and ERG/ DUP should leave win. A much more workable Brexit should leave win. You know what you are voting for.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Doesn’t that also apply to the previous referendum that kept us in Europe?

Can we not have one that hasn’t been corrupted by foreign powers and rich dickheads?

It's an affront to democracy, to let the people have a vote.

Apparently it's also an affront to democracy when parliament takes control of Britain's laws, and votes not to accept deals, or to leave the EU without a deal...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Prove to me that the majority of voters want to 'remain'.....

Let's have a vote to prove it then!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Oh, for all I know this is waaaayyyy old, but it amused me anyway

 

[Grendel]

It's an affront to democracy, to let the people have a vote.

Apparently it's also an affront to democracy when parliament takes control of Britain's laws, and votes not to accept deals, or to leave the EU without a deal...

To compare this vote to the EEC vote is laughable

 

[Grendel]

Let's have a vote to prove it then!

Should we have one every year?

 

[bezzer]

So it appears May is going to ask the EU for a short delay, with the option of a 2 year delay.
The short delay would be allow her to put her deal back to Parliament. If it fails, or Bercow says she can't put it to the vote again, then we trigger the 2 year extension and carry on with this clusterfuck.

However, if the EU say no extension, then we're out in just over 10 days.......

 

[martcov]

Should we have one every year?

No, just a fair and informed one.

And another fine.

Just in from Sky News:
„The Information Commissioner's Office has fined 'Vote Leave' £40,000 after an investigation found it sent more than 196,000 text messages promoting the aims of the campaign ahead of the 2016 EU referendum and was unable to provide evidence recipients had given their consent“

 

[martcov]

So it appears May is going to ask the EU for a short delay, with the option of a 2 year delay.
The short delay would be allow her to put her deal back to Parliament. If it fails, or Bercow says she can't put it to the vote again, then we trigger the 2 year extension and carry on with this clusterfuck.

However, if the EU say no extension, then we're out in just over 10 days.......

Or she goes for a people’s vote and the EU will accept an extension.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

To compare this vote to the EEC vote is laughable

I didn't.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

No, just a fair and informed one.

And another fine.

Just in from Sky News:
„The Information Commissioner's Office has fined 'Vote Leave' £40,000 after an investigation found it sent more than 196,000 text messages promoting the aims of the campaign ahead of the 2016 EU referendum and was unable to provide evidence recipients had given their consent“

tbf, I'd still like to know why government could send something through the post saying why the EU was great, but the opportunity was denied the other way.

That being said, I suspect it ended up counterproductive...

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Oh, for all I know this is waaaayyyy old, but it amused me anyway

And even with this embarrassing walk, the leave campaign still beat the remaoners

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Or she goes for a people’s vote and the EU will accept an extension.

There will be no people's vote unless its either no deal or treason mays deal

 

[martcov]

And even with this embarrassing walk, the leave campaign still beat the remaoners

Yeah, but this is showing the hypocrisy of the man. Conning a few old blokes into walking in the rain whilst he is drinking in a pub.

 

[Astute]

It's an affront to democracy, to let the people have a vote.

Apparently it's also an affront to democracy when parliament takes control of Britain's laws, and votes not to accept deals, or to leave the EU without a deal...

But here is the problem I have.

I need us to stay in the EU. But I respected the result. I wasn't a part of the side who won the referendum. Just like each time the Tories get voted in.

A precedent would be set. If we get a vote on anything they fuck about for a few years without implementing what we have voted for so they get the chance to get the result they wanted first time.

I think my preferred ending to this would be for us to leave the EU but for close ties to remain that are as close as possible to what we have now. But even this isn't a good result for anyone. It just seems the best compromise.