The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (26 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

“there’s no other deal available”

This is how your mind & argument works as opposed to mine - the EU have said exactly the same thing. But that is ok by you isn't it?

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[Grendel]

That is the situation at the moment. The UK is not allied to a federal state. It is a member of a Union of sovereign states. The clue is in the name. European Union.

Remind me what the U in USSR stands for?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Remind me what the U in USSR stands for?

C

 

[tisza]

That is the situation at the moment. The UK is not allied to a federal state. It is a member of a Union of sovereign states. The clue is in the name. European Union.

Your 1st sentence is the killer - "at the moment ". Exactly what many Leavers didn't like and many across Europe don't like. This wave of feeling that the ultimate goal of Brussels is a federal superstate.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Your 1st sentence is the killer - "at the moment ". Exactly what many Leavers didn't like and many across Europe don't like. This wave of feeling that the ultimate goal of Brussels is a federal superstate.

We're more likely to stop that within than without.

(Would also be better to be the Florida rather than the Cuba, but that's another argument)

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Remind me what the U in USSR stands for?

Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Democratic Republic of the Congo
United Kingdom

Self proclaimed titles are meaningless

 

[tisza]

We're more likely to stop that within than without.

(Would also be better to be the Florida rather than the Cuba, but that's another argument)

Always reminds me of that Yes Minister episode on why countries are in the EU.

Can't compare a federal Europe to the US.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Your 1st sentence is the killer - "at the moment ". Exactly what many Leavers didn't like and many across Europe don't like. This wave of feeling that the ultimate goal of Brussels is a federal superstate.

People clinging to arbitrarily drawn lines on a map and claiming superiority based on which side of the line they were born. Yawn

 

[Astute]

You are one to talk about missing the point. I’m not a Corbyn sycophant and I’ve criticised him many times in the thread and elsewhere when it comes to his poor strategic thinking and inability to play politics.

However-this perception of him as an actual IRA member is the kind of stupidity I’m talking about with the general public. Guilt by association is not guilt. Good Friday released a lot of scumbags on the UVF and IRA sides. Was that right who knows but it did bring an end to the carnage.

There were soldiers who murdered innocents too. There were unionists who carried out terrorist acts on the republican community. But the British public has always turned a blind eye to its own skeletons in the closet

And yet you miss the point by miles yet again.

I am not calling him an IRA member. I am not calling him anything. Try reading what I say instead of thinking you know what I am saying.

Or would you like to explain how the Tories are imploding but Labour are behind. You say that Labour had the best manifesto by far. So how come Labour are not miles ahead?

Yes it is the way Corbyn is perceived by the general public. And it is as though he doesn't care as he continues to do things the wrong way. He keeps stacking things up that make the public dislike/distrust him.

And now you defend what Corbyn has said. So can you explain why it is OK for people to have immunity for murdering innocent women and children but it is good to chase up the soldiers that were put in the position by the British government. To me it should be chase them all up or draw a line in the sand and give the same to all. The soldiers were not given the choice to be there. The terrorists made their choice. They planted the bombs knowing they would kill innocent people. They used guns where there were innocent people. Yet they have immunity.

 

[tisza]

Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Democratic Republic of the Congo
United Kingdom

Self proclaimed titles are meaningless

Was the old saying - any country with the word "democratic" in its name obviously isn't

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is how your mind & argument works as opposed to mine - the EU have said exactly the same thing. But that is ok by you isn't it?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

We chose to leave the club and set our own time limit for departure. Burden is on us to make it work

 

[Astute]

How was the piece process going to start without the slightest amount of involvement with the IRA?

Which piece was that?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And yet you miss the point by miles yet again.

I am not calling him an IRA member. I am not calling him anything. Try reading what I say instead of thinking you know what I am saying.

Or would you like to explain how the Tories are imploding but Labour are behind. You say that Labour had the best manifesto by far. So how come Labour are not miles ahead?

Yes it is the way Corbyn is perceived by the general public. And it is as though he doesn't care as he continues to do things the wrong way. He keeps stacking things up that make the public dislike/distrust him.

And now you defend what Corbyn has said. So can you explain why it is OK for people to have immunity for murdering innocent women and children but it is good to chase up the soldiers that were put in the position by the British government. To me it should be chase them all up or draw a line in the sand and give the same to all. The soldiers were not given the choice to be there. The terrorists made their choice. They planted the bombs knowing they would kill innocent people. They used guns where there were innocent people. Yet they have immunity.

Dude you have just said a few posts ago ‘Corbyn working with the IRA’. Public perception of him and his policies is wide off the mark, that is why the party lags in the polls. Why is perception so off the mark, well we have discussed that a few pages ago. It’s also wrong on immigration which was the leading issue for Leave voters. Left wing populists need to hammer their policies twice as hard so the public associates them with policies they want. Also if anybody read the manifestos they would see attempted costings for Labour but not the Tories.

An obvious right wing media bias coupled with a generally thick electorate who don’t think critically about what they’re presented with. I’m not defending Corbyn, I’m defending the results of Good Friday. Your beef should lie with Blair/Mowlam etc for the specifics. It achieved peace in a region that was a war zone for decades.

 

[tisza]

We chose to leave the club and set our own time limit for departure. Burden is on us to make it work

That's the issue. Who is the burden on - govt, parliament, the electorate.
May's ridiculous belief that she can stir the public to put pressure on the politicians to get her way is desperate beyond belief.
Even with a Parliament still prepared to take us out how are they going to find a consensus agreement? Even if they vote for each bit can they still cobble together a coherent deal that will pass in its entirety?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's the issue. Who is the burden on - govt, parliament, the electorate.
May's ridiculous belief that she can stir the public to put pressure on the politicians to get her way is desperate beyond belief.
Even with a Parliament still prepared to take us out how are they going to find a consensus agreement? Even if they vote for each bit can they still cobble together a coherent deal that will pass in its entirety?

Raises the question of whether Brexit was ever going to work. Politicians wanting to ‘honour the will of the people’ but knowing the country will be worse off as a consequence. Almost like putting it to a referendum was fucking stupid.

 

[Astute]

Dude you have just said a few posts ago ‘Corbyn working with the IRA’. Public perception of him and his policies is wide off the mark, that is why the party lags in the polls. Why is perception so off the mark, well we have discussed that a few pages ago. It’s also wrong on immigration which was the leading issue for Leave voters. Left wing populists need to hammer their policies twice as hard so the public associates them with policies they want. Also if anybody read the manifestos they would see attempted costings for Labour but not the Tories.

An obvious right wing media bias coupled with a generally thick electorate who don’t think critically about what they’re presented with. I’m not defending Corbyn, I’m defending the results of Good Friday. Your beef should lie with Blair/Mowlam etc for the specifics. It achieved peace in a region that was a war zone for decades.

Right dude. Are you saying that he didn't work with the IRA?

I don't have a disagreement with how the peace process was done. But we have someone with the sole aim of being PM yet doing things the voters don't like. I would love it if he was the Tory leader. They would be in the situation Labour are. Yet with me saying how it is you make out it is constantly having a go at Corbyn himself. It isn't personal as you make out. I want a Labour government. But it won't happen with Corbyn in charge.

Or would you even like to explain how he will talk to any terrorists around the world yet he won't be in a meeting with certain MP's?

 

[Astute]

Raises the question of whether Brexit was ever going to work. Politicians wanting to ‘honour the will of the people’ but knowing the country will be worse off as a consequence. Almost like putting it to a referendum was fucking stupid.

Putting it to a referendum when just about everything we were told was inaccurate or a lie was the problem.

 

[tisza]

Raises the question of whether Brexit was ever going to work. Politicians wanting to ‘honour the will of the people’ but knowing the country will be worse off as a consequence. Almost like putting it to a referendum was fucking stupid.

Politicians didn't have a clear idea of how difficult it would be to implement. Nobody heard the diverse leave or remain messages just ' leave or remain'
Still a clear majority in Parliament to follow referendum just not on how to.
All parties fear a backlash if the refendum isn't delivered or even having to have a 2nd referendum.
Again most don't want a 2nd referendum because it would be far more acrimonious than the 1st.
Whatever the outcome this will reverberate through British politics for a long time to come. Pleas for national unity whatever the outcome will fall on many deaf ears.
Levels of trust in Govt and parliament have steadily been falling for years regardless of who is in power.
The referendum was a political gamble that went wrong. They knew EU was unpopular but never imagined they would lose. Even in the days before the result it looked like a likely small remain victory was most likely.
It still comes down to 'do you have to respect the will of the people' even if you think they are wrong. We still have a parliamentary system that operates on what most people vote for but rarely what the majority of the popular vote vote for.

 

[skybluetony176]

This is how your mind & argument works as opposed to mine - the EU have said exactly the same thing. But that is ok by you isn't it?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Who drew the red lines? This is the only deal within those red lines. Change the red lines and get a deal that is acceptable to our sovereign parliament. That’s sovereignty in action. May has continually tried to deny the country that sovereignty, no one else.

 

[Sick Boy]

Politicians didn't have a clear idea of how difficult it would be to implement. Nobody heard the diverse leave or remain messages just ' leave or remain'
Still a clear majority in Parliament to follow referendum just not on how to.
All parties fear a backlash if the refendum isn't delivered or even having to have a 2nd referendum.
Again most don't want a 2nd referendum because it would be far more acrimonious than the 1st.
Whatever the outcome this will reverberate through British politics for a long time to come. Pleas for national unity whatever the outcome will fall on many deaf ears.
Levels of trust in Govt and parliament have steadily been falling for years regardless of who is in power.
The referendum was a political gamble that went wrong. They knew EU was unpopular but never imagined they would lose. Even in the days before the result it looked like a likely small remain victory was most likely.
It still comes down to 'do you have to respect the will of the people' even if you think they are wrong. We still have a parliamentary system that operates on what most people vote for but rarely what the majority of the popular vote vote for.

Your first sentence is spot on and the general public still don’t understand how difficult it is to leave. The likes of Davis and Fox should never have been involved

 

[tisza]

The mixed messages coming out of Brussels from senior figures there highlight how unclear this whole extension process is.
Some even proposing a referendum has to be part of it.
One surefire way to get a Brexit leave vote again is to have Brussels enforce a referendum rather than it coming from our own Parliament!!!!

 

[tisza]

Your first sentence is stop on and the general public still don’t understand how difficult it is to leave.

Has to be a part of the problem.
Any organization, group, partnership should have clear exit routes whether they are attractive or unattractive.
Quit your job, you don't get severance pay or break this contract, you don't get paid etc.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Right dude. Are you saying that he didn't work with the IRA?

I don't have a disagreement with how the peace process was done. But we have someone with the sole aim of being PM yet doing things the voters don't like. I would love it if he was the Tory leader. They would be in the situation Labour are. Yet with me saying how it is you make out it is constantly having a go at Corbyn himself. It isn't personal as you make out. I want a Labour government. But it won't happen with Corbyn in charge.

Or would you even like to explain how he will talk to any terrorists around the world yet he won't be in a meeting with certain MP's?

Give me a man or woman with the same policy positions but with a Colgate smile for the masses and I’m happy to ditch Jezza. The problem is you have never put a name forward and neither has anyone else. The other problem is accepting one sided media coverage as fair and balanced. Rather than challenge outrageously false stories we blame the subject of the articles.

You often have to talk to undesirables if you don’t want to go down the costly process of killing every last one. Talking to republicans helped to end the bloodshed. That isn’t tantamount to collaboration which is what you are angling at.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Politicians didn't have a clear idea of how difficult it would be to implement. Nobody heard the diverse leave or remain messages just ' leave or remain'
Still a clear majority in Parliament to follow referendum just not on how to.
All parties fear a backlash if the refendum isn't delivered or even having to have a 2nd referendum.
Again most don't want a 2nd referendum because it would be far more acrimonious than the 1st.
Whatever the outcome this will reverberate through British politics for a long time to come. Pleas for national unity whatever the outcome will fall on many deaf ears.
Levels of trust in Govt and parliament have steadily been falling for years regardless of who is in power.
The referendum was a political gamble that went wrong. They knew EU was unpopular but never imagined they would lose. Even in the days before the result it looked like a likely small remain victory was most likely.
It still comes down to 'do you have to respect the will of the people' even if you think they are wrong. We still have a parliamentary system that operates on what most people vote for but rarely what the majority of the popular vote vote for.

Does a doctor allow a patient to damage their own health?

 

[Captain Dart]

There is a big effort by article 50 revokers in progress as the deadline looms.

 

[tisza]

Does a doctor allow a patient to damage their own health?

A doctor has years of training based on fact for a specific role. Politicians don't.
Can a doctor force a patient to take his/her advice? In that relationship doctor can advise but patient will decide.

 

[tisza]

There is a big effort by article 50 revokers in progress as the deadline looms.

again this is another group with diverse viewpoints - diehard remainers, leavers who don't like the leave option on offer etc. Still difficult to get majority support with public or Parliament. Commentators currently saying still more chance of No Deal than Article 50 being revoked.
But much like the referendum last minute sways or surges still possible.

 

[tisza]

Sad state of affairs now that MPs officially warned by deputy speaker to take extra personal security measures due to current situation. Don't travel alone, don't walk take taxis etc

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

A doctor has years of training based on fact for a specific role. Politicians don't.
Can a doctor force a patient to take his/her advice? In that relationship doctor can advise but patient will decide.

Let’s think about it as a choice between two procedures. The patient insists on one which will cause more harm, despite the doctor’s efforts. Does the doctor go ahead or refuse for the patient’s benefit?

 

[Grendel]

Let’s think about it as a choice between two procedures. The patient insists on one which will cause more harm, despite the doctor’s efforts. Does the doctor go ahead or refuse for the patient’s benefit?

Stop sounding ridiculous - you sound like that deranged Tory MP (sorry ex Tory MP) whose always using stupid medical analogies

 

[Captain Dart]

Jezza's embarassing brother. :facepalm:


PMSL

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If ever we needed Chris Morris back on TV, this is the time!

 

[Sick Boy]

Sad state of affairs now that MPs officially warned by deputy speaker to take extra personal security measures due to current situation. Don't travel alone, don't walk take taxis etc

Yeah it’s dreadful and a sad reflection of the country

 

[tisza]

Let’s think about it as a choice between two procedures. The patient insists on one which will cause more harm, despite the doctor’s efforts. Does the doctor go ahead or refuse for the patient’s benefit?

so the doctor ends up doing nothing and the patient looks for 2nd/3rd etc opinions which is basically where your analogy takes us to now.

 

[Astute]

Give me a man or woman with the same policy positions but with a Colgate smile for the masses and I’m happy to ditch Jezza. The problem is you have never put a name forward and neither has anyone else. The other problem is accepting one sided media coverage as fair and balanced. Rather than challenge outrageously false stories we blame the subject of the articles.

You often have to talk to undesirables if you don’t want to go down the costly process of killing every last one. Talking to republicans helped to end the bloodshed. That isn’t tantamount to collaboration which is what you are angling at.

So you think that Corbyn is the best the Labour party presently have? We are never going to win a GE if that is the case.

And I know that if I named anyone you would continue to have a go in his defence.