The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

[tisza]

Half of us will be dead without freedom of movement. Can't get a doctor's appointment as it is. We'll have to pay more cash too, as there won't be as much coming into the economy from said economic migrants.

And the option is there for people to sod off if they want more space around them. If the EU ain't to your taste, there's nice farming patches in Burkina Faso, I believe...

Burkina Faso isn't a bad example. We are already producing large amounts of fresh produce for importing in many African countries. One of the big issues in Africa is the vast amounts of land being bought up by developed countries to service their own domestic food markets.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Here we go, nice interesting article about contributions.

Country would be better off if it was the native British who emigrated...

The Fiscal Impact of Immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory

 

[tisza]

There's a difference between FOM and controlled immigration. As for sod off elsewhere if you're not happy with a burgeoning population that encroaches on quality of life for many, that's so poor.........Plus you already know the mathematics as regards tax receipts and impact and extra costs on services and infrastructure but you never admit it.

One of the ironies of this FOM and social service costs etc. is that for residency in many EU countries you need your own medical insurance (or EHIC) and proof of funds that you can support yourself or have a job already.
Just done 3 UK citizens for Hungarian residency and another one for Slovakia. Painless procedure ( if paperwork done correctly beforehand ) but had to show they had a place to live, could support themselves (employment contract or savings) and medical insurance. Not so different as to one of the things Cameron was asking for.

 

[Astute]

You say that the EU doesn’t keep to it’s rules. When have you pilloried the UK for not keeping to it’s rules?

The EU doesn't keep to rules, regulations and law. You can't deny this anymore.

I constantly have a go at the Tories for things they do wrong. But because you are pro EU whatever they do and anti UK government you try to discredit everything said against the EU and comments against the UK government don't even register with you.

And stupidly I am getting dragged into another pathetic argument with you.

 

[Astute]

May's deal is becoming a bit like the Police Academy series of films...

Nah. Police academy is nearly as farcical as our government but it is funny. It is also way more believable than the Tories.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Nah. Police academy is nearly as farcical as our government but it is funny. It is also way more believable than the Tories.

Got less funny the more sequels they did!

 

[Astute]

Here we go, nice interesting article about contributions.

Country would be better off if it was the native British who emigrated...

The Fiscal Impact of Immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory

And what happens when they become old and are due a pension from their contributions to the system? It isn't massive at the present but will be in years to come. Then we will need millions more to pay for it.

 

[Astute]

Got less funny the more sequels they did!

And less realistic. But still more realistic than the Tory government.

 

[tisza]

Here we go, nice interesting article about contributions.

Country would be better off if it was the native British who emigrated...

The Fiscal Impact of Immigration in the UK - Migration Observatory

This one already been disputed.
EU 15 country members more likely to be in UK for salaried jobs and so not claiming benefits etc. Also newer member countries likely to be doing lower paid jobs and get benefits etc. 2 of these countries (Poland and Romania) account for nearly 50% of the total EU people residing in Britain.
Also these figures don't include the outflow of cash (particularly from the 2 countries mentioned) back to their own countries.
Only looks at 2 types of benefit as well and makes no allowance for cost of services.
Snapshot economics that don't show the full picture don't prove much.
Makes no allowance for long-term costs inc. education, health,pensions etc.
Weighed against all this is the fact that these newer member country nationals are filling large areas of lower paid work that employers were struggling to fill adequately from the "domestic" pool of labour. Comparisions with "domestic" equivalents show a higher level of education in that labour pool as well.

 

[Ian1779]

Got less funny the more sequels they did!

Mission to Moscow = MV3

 

[martcov]

The EU doesn't keep to rules, regulations and law. You can't deny this anymore.

I constantly have a go at the Tories for things they do wrong. But because you are pro EU whatever they do and anti UK government you try to discredit everything said against the EU and comments against the UK government don't even register with you.

And stupidly I am getting dragged into another pathetic argument with you.

No you aren’t. You avoiding answering the question.

 

[martcov]

And what happens when they become old and are due a pension from their contributions to the system? It isn't massive at the present but will be in years to come. Then we will need millions more to pay for it.

Assuming they don’t retire to their own country when they get older. Plus they have been educated before they come to the UK. A saving.

 

[Ashdown]

I do know. I know there's a net benefit from economic migrants. There's a net benefit from Freedom of Movement.

It isn't poor. Why not go to Burkina Faso? Personally I like the quality of life that's been improved, thanks to immigration.

It has been improved in many ways, can't disagree, in others I believe it has diminished through certain types of migrants we have taken in. As I've said before though my main issue isn't with the individuals, it's with the numbers and their negative impact on many things.

 

[Ashdown]

This one already been disputed.
EU 15 country members more likely to be in UK for salaried jobs and so not claiming benefits etc. Also newer member countries likely to be doing lower paid jobs and get benefits etc. 2 of these countries (Poland and Romania) account for nearly 50% of the total EU people residing in Britain.
Also these figures don't include the outflow of cash (particularly from the 2 countries mentioned) back to their own countries.
Only looks at 2 types of benefit as well and makes no allowance for cost of services.
Snapshot economics that don't show the full picture don't prove much.
Makes no allowance for long-term costs inc. education, health,pensions etc.
Weighed against all this is the fact that these newer member country nationals are filling large areas of lower paid work that employers were struggling to fill adequately from the "domestic" pool of labour. Comparisions with "domestic" equivalents show a higher level of education in that labour pool as well.

Exactly !

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So those who want out of the EU are idiots?

Here we go again. So those who want out but want trade agreements and the rest would have to vote for what they don't want and would be an idiot if they disagreed with you.

Embarrassing comprehension skills again-hard to look at

The EU is not going back to the table. It is May’s deal, no deal, or stay. If you want what is objectively worse because of false beliefs, and cling to those false beliefs even when evidence is hitting you in the face, yeah you’re an idiot.

On Question Time a panel member said to John Barnes ‘you’re not trying to call the general public thick are you?’. Yes I am, the truth hurts

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Exactly !

Missing from this Ashdown is that most immigration is non-EU. We have also done bugger all to use the checks and balances we already had on EU immigration.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He's an odd little fellow Bercow, he (whilst saying he is impartial) has so many 'tells' that he just can't help but give the game away that he is anything but. I have already emailed the Oxford Dictionary to request the word 'smugnorant' be added to next years print in his honor. smugnorant.....adjective.....1. John Bercow.

Yeah he should just allow the same vote to be put to the House until it passes but not give the public another wait what

 

[Astute]

Embarrassing comprehension skills again-hard to look at

The EU is not going back to the table. It is May’s deal, no deal, or stay. If you want what is objectively worse because of false beliefs, and cling to those false beliefs even when evidence is hitting you in the face, yeah you’re an idiot.

On Question Time a panel member said to John Barnes ‘you’re not trying to call the general public thick are you?’. Yes I am, the truth hurts

And yet again you come out with rubbish then say it is me that has embarrassing comprehension problems.

Are you now going to state that it is either Mays deal or no deal or remain in the EU? Because it is what you have said. I have stated it won't be a no deal. Remain is a possibility. May's deal is about dead.

Comprehensive problems? No. I have a mind of my own and I don't have an agenda to follow like yourself. I deal with facts and not fantasies.

 

[tisza]

See Tory backlash starts. Grieve's local party (which was leave) passed a vote of no confidence last night in a move to deselect him for next General election.

So fellow Remain MPs want to suspend local party.

Any form of accountability some of these Remain Tories are not prepared to circumvent? Surely constituents should be allowed to choose a candidate that represents their views - leave areas should be allowed leave MPs and the same for Remain areas.

I know some Labour CLAs have been suspended for different reasons in past but if a local electorate cannot select its own candidates what's the point of a democracy?
One of the drawbacks of list systems and other PR systems is the limitation of input from local associations.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And yet again you come out with rubbish then say it is me that has embarrassing comprehension problems.

Are you now going to state that it is either Mays deal or no deal or remain in the EU? Because it is what you have said. I have stated it won't be a no deal. Remain is a possibility. May's deal is about dead.

Comprehensive problems? No. I have a mind of my own and I don't have an agenda to follow like yourself. I deal with facts and not fantasies.

I am trying to propose a vote which doesn’t split the Leave numbers in the interests of as fair a contest as possible. Parliament have proven themselves incapable and it should be the public to break the deadlock with overwhelming volumes of evidence to help the decision.

Starting to get awkward how regularly you cock this stuff up

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

See Tory backlash starts. Grieve's local party (which was leave) passed a vote of no confidence last night in a move to deselect him for next General election.

So fellow Remain MPs want to suspend local party.

Any form of accountability some of these Remain Tories are not prepared to circumvent? Surely constituents should be allowed to choose a candidate that represents their views - leave areas should be allowed leave MPs and the same for Remain areas.

I know some Labour CLAs have been suspended for different reasons in past but if a local electorate cannot select its own candidates what's the point of a democracy?
One of the drawbacks of list systems and other PR systems is the limitation of input from local associations.

The law now allows constituents to trigger by elections if sufficient numbers are petitioned to the returning officer. Personally, I’d like Chuka to put his money where his Tory lite mouth is

 

[Ashdown]

Missing from this Ashdown is that most immigration is non-EU. We have also done bugger all to use the checks and balances we already had on EU immigration.

Don't disagree

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Don't disagree

Yeah so how will leaving fix the problem?

 

[Astute]

I am trying to propose a vote which doesn’t split the Leave numbers in the interests of as fair a contest as possible. Parliament have proven themselves incapable and it should be the public to break the deadlock with overwhelming volumes of evidence to help the decision.

Starting to get awkward how regularly you cock this stuff up

So you are chatting shite again.

Cock what up?

So are you changing what you said already? Only remain, leave without a deal or May's deal?

Just shows you consider hardly anything yet take the piss out of someone who does. Take your childish behaviour to someone else. I already have enough children to look after.

 

[tisza]

The law now allows constituents to trigger by elections if sufficient numbers are petitioned to the returning officer. Personally, I’d like Chuka to put his money where his Tory lite mouth is

Absolutely agree with this.
If MPs resign the party whip then they should trigger a by election automatically.
An extraordinary abuse of the democratic principle when you are elected on one platform then decide not to fulfil the "contract" but can carry on under a false flag.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you are chatting shite again.

Cock what up?

So are you changing what you said already? Only remain, leave without a deal or May's deal?

Just shows you consider hardly anything yet take the piss out of someone who does. Take your childish behaviour to someone else. I already have enough children to look after.

I never said let’s have a vote with all 3 as options. This is the problem-and it really is very embarrassing. He looks but doesn’t watch and hears but doesn’t listen.

I’ve been dealing in facts all the way through. Put across in a blunt way because there is one option that is clearly worse than the other

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Absolutely agree with this.
If MPs resign the party whip then they should trigger a by election automatically.
An extraordinary abuse of the democratic principle when you are elected on one platform then decide not to fulfil the "contract" but can carry on under a false flag.

They have sought permission to turn their company into a political party (presumably now after sufficient funds have been donated from private non disclosable sources). Wish it could be granted on condition of by-elections for all

 

[tisza]

Missing from this Ashdown is that most immigration is non-EU. We have also done bugger all to use the checks and balances we already had on EU immigration.

But non EU increases primarily under student visas and family members rather than work visas.
If govts wanted to reduce immigration be easier to plug all the holes in the student visa system (which has the largest overstay numbers) and go far stronger after the employers who are exploiting cheap or illegal workers.

 

[Ashdown]

Yeah so how will leaving fix the problem?

It could begin a process of fixing the issue. The next step would be controlling all incoming arrivals.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But non EU increases primarily under student visas and family members rather than work visas.
If govts wanted to reduce immigration be easier to plug all the holes in the student visa system (which has the largest overstay numbers) and go far stronger after the employers who are exploiting cheap or illegal workers.

I agree illegal immigration should be tightly clamped down on in large part because of the horrible quality of life they are exposed to. As for cheap labour, this is the crux of why governments have not tackled the problem. Big business loves it and we have had decades of almost uninterrupted pro-corporate politicians turning a blind eye.

Though as a local example the Oriental Palace has had two Home Office raids in a year (on one occasion when we were about to go in to eat...)

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It could begin a process of fixing the issue. The next step would be controlling all incoming arrivals.

No that process was already open to us under existing EU laws that we didn’t use. We also make little attempt to control non-EU immigration effectively anyway. You’re just wrong, sorry

 

[Ashdown]

No that process was already open to us under existing EU laws that we didn’t use. We also make little attempt to control non-EU immigration effectively anyway. You’re just wrong, sorry

I'm not exactly wrong, we are in agreement, it is the fault of our successive governments but I and many others hope we may see a turning point now.

 

[Astute]

Embarrassing comprehension skills again-hard to look at

The EU is not going back to the table. It is May’s deal, no deal, or stay.

And since you have tried to change what you said by insulting me. Some things never change.

All I did was check what you said. All you have done is insult.

Have it your way. But you will need another idiot to insult as I am not playing your games. You have stated what will happen. I have disagreed with you.

I'm gone.

 

[tisza]

. As for cheap labour, this is the crux of why governments have not tackled the problem. Big business loves it and we have had decades of almost uninterrupted pro-corporate politicians turning a blind eye.

Though as a local example the Oriental Palace has had two Home Office raids in a year (on one occasion when we were about to go in to eat...)

It is mainly small businesses that use this type of labour. Often people preying on their own compatriots.
Also those industries that use large amounts of casual labour. The regulations are generally there but as usual it's another area where enforcement has suffered too many cutbacks under successive govts.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And since you have tried to change what you said by insulting me. Some things never change.

All I did was check what you said. All you have done is insult.

Have it your way. But you will need another idiot to insult as I am not playing your games. You have stated what will happen. I have disagreed with you.

I'm gone.

Find where I have said there should be a 3 way referendum and I will gladly have egg on my face. Since you never admit a mistake I won't hold my breath