The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (79 Viewers)

[martcov]

I’m not saying I’m right, and in fact your good points are testament to the fact that it is incredibly complex.

Since the result I feel the remain camp have merely trotted out the line of 'you were wrong to vote Leave, you were misinformed/stupid/naive'. Look at the people championing the 2nd Ref/PV - Umanna, Soubry, Blair, Cable..... people that not going to inspire anyone, especially not Leave voters.

They have utterly lost the argument, even when you have evidence that exiting the EU would have a detrimental effect. That's why I feel it may have to be this camp that moves first to find a middle ground.

The Tories were telling everyone that this negotiation was going to be a piece of piss, and we'd have the EU eating out of our hands, but it couldn't have been further from the truth. People love to try and pin this on Labour, but actually they can't do a thing... they don't have the numbers in terms of seats, and their ambivalence will have cost them voters, but their vote demographic was the most complex of all the parties.

My problem with Farage is that he wants a Hard Brexit for his own personal gain. And he is now pushing the notion that anything other than that isn't really Brexit. It's a lie and he knows it.

A solution? Who knows...

I don’t see moving towards the leavers as the right thing to do just because the remainers you quote aren’t plausible to millions of leavers.

I do agree that the remainers you mention have screwed up. The liberals are tainted by their coalition with the Tories, but are still an established party with a clear course on the subject. The greens are not tainted and I think many remainers could vote for them in good faith

 

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[djr8369]

Since the result I feel the remain camp have merely trotted out the line of 'you were wrong to vote Leave, you were misinformed/stupid/naive'. Look at the people championing the 2nd Ref/PV - Umanna, Soubry, Blair, Cable..... people that not going to inspire anyone, especially not Leave voters.

They have utterly lost the argument, even when you have evidence that exiting the EU would have a detrimental effect...

Is it that they lost the argument or people like Farage and Johnson just shouted emotionally driven catchphrases over any sense and reason and people have latched onto that?

Remainers have tried to remain evidence based and reasoned but in this new politics that’s just seen as the status quo and ignored.

Do they need to start shouting slogans and stoop to Farages level? As soon as they do all you’ll hear is “so much for remainers being intelligent”.

How can they connect with leavers?


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[SkyblueBazza]

Do you actually believe this rubbish?

He lives & breathes every bit of it if it reinforces his beliefs...that's why I blocked him. He reminds me of some kind of cult member & I find exchanging with him tedious, disturbing & pointless in equal measures

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[SkyblueBazza]

Er it’s 34% to the brexit party - well done though you have bought into mad Marts dillusions

Brexit weekly briefing: panic as Farage polls highest for EU elections

Maths is one of Tony's strong points Grendel. He can find things in numbers that nobody else can see

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[SkyblueBazza]

No because it’s BMG and they often “produce” polls that show a result different to others.

It excludes insures who had s preference and all it did was make a nice sound byte in the independent

He is probably starting to see polls that noby else can see as well now!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Well it it’s as that’s how a democratic process (a real one not a pretend Eu one) actually works

...he said ignoring perhaps their probable indifference to the outcome as well

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[SkyblueBazza]

Marc almond in an orgy - oddly no

Can't wotk out whether he is jealous of Marc Almond's alledged conquests or homophobic myself. I'm sure had he applied some thought a less potentially offensive/controversial analogy could have been suggested

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[Ian1779]

Is it that they lost the argument or people like Farage and Johnson just shouted emotionally driven catchphrases over any sense and reason and people have latched onto that?

Remainers have tried to remain evidence based and reasoned but in this new politics that’s just seen as the status quo and ignored.

Do they need to start shouting slogans and stoop to Farages level? As soon as they do all you’ll hear is “so much for remainers being intelligent”.

How can they connect with leavers?


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For me I don’t think there has been anywhere near enough effort made to try and understand why Leave won.

Putting aside the Boris bus, the immigration card for one second - I firmly believe the main catalyst was austerity and the inequality of wealth that it exacerbated.

A lot of the so-called analysis post referendum focused on areas like ‘highest level of education’ or ‘socio-economic class’ primarily in my opinion to fit a narrative that was something like ‘lesser educated or lesser skilled people were more likely to vote leave’.

The problem is that was the wrong way to look at it. The analysis should have been looking at way more important factors such as: median house price, average wage, proportion of social housing/private rental/homeowners, employment percentage, %age living in relative poverty, investment in infrastructure, proportions of tax credits... the list could go on and on. This analysis should be by ward, council, constituency - whatever it took to get a true picture of why. Are these areas post industrial? Are they trial areas for Universal Credit? This was a once in a generation decision, and required a once in a generation analysis afterwards.

I bet the correlation between these measures and the leave vote would be a lot more conclusive (although not completely definitive) - and allow people to truly understand the true story behind Leave... A failure by New Labour, the Coalition and the Tories to stop communities behind left behind, and a failure to protect the vulnerable and most in need.

Instead 2 years afterwards we get Tony Blair coming out and saying he thinks we should have another vote... you know the same guy who said we should have gone to war. He is the epitome of why the Remain camp have lost the argument, and no-deal is more likely that remain. It’s a shame for those decent remainers that have tried to reason with facts, and keep it measured and respectful, you’ve been let down by the charlatans at the top who like Farage are out to just look after themselves.

 

[martcov]

He lives & breathes every bit of it if it reinforces his beliefs...that's why I blocked him. He reminds me of some kind of cult member & I find exchanging with him tedious, disturbing & pointless in equal measures

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Yes, well you would find thinking tedious, which is why you live in your little bubble. As for cult member, you are the classic example of one. Can’t think, can’t discuss... just block opinions different to your own. Makes you feel better. I know I’m blocked by you ( so what ), but I am sure you get some of my comments relayed.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Because when you already have nothing, it actually can't be any worse.

Which equates to the lie that we would all be so much better off back in the day when joining. Are 'we' better off? Some are...the wealthy definitely...but is that thanks to domestic or EU policy & opportunity? 'We' having become more & more dissafected with politics & numbers (e.g. average earnings, government investments in house building/NHS/education etc) making things 'better' but that 'better' not being visible or exeriential to us the end-user...'we' that consider things simplistically cannot express what is actually 'better'. So numbers & forecast & opinions of 'experts' & polls become irrelevant.

The powers that be only have themselves to blame. They have historically (& still do) cherry-picked, distorted, influenced, lied & downright cheated us so much that 'we' trust little or nothing they say anymore & vote with pure emotion. That emotion is fuelled by media agenda to bias to the extreme. Virtually everything has become meaningless beyond the here & now, & it's impact upon 'me'

So it - reap it

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[martcov]

For me I don’t think there has been anywhere near enough effort made to try and understand why Leave won.

Putting aside the Boris bus, the immigration card for one second - I firmly believe the main catalyst was austerity and the inequality of wealth that it exacerbated.

A lot of the so-called analysis post referendum focused on areas like ‘highest level of education’ or ‘socio-economic class’ primarily in my opinion to fit a narrative that was something like ‘lesser educated or lesser skilled people were more likely to vote leave’.

The problem is that was the wrong way to look at it. The analysis should have been looking at way more important factors such as: median house price, average wage, proportion of social housing/private rental/homeowners, employment percentage, %age living in relative poverty, investment in infrastructure, proportions of tax credits... the list could go on and on. This analysis should be by ward, council, constituency - whatever it took to get a true picture of why. Are these areas post industrial? Are they trial areas for Universal Credit? This was a once in a generation decision, and required a once in a generation analysis afterwards.

I bet the correlation between these measures and the leave vote would be a lot more conclusive (although not completely definitive) - and allow people to truly understand the true story behind Leave... A failure by New Labour, the Coalition and the Tories to stop communities behind left behind, and a failure to protect the vulnerable and most in need.

Instead 2 years afterwards we get Tony Blair coming out and saying he thinks we should have another vote... you know the same guy who said we should have gone to war. He is the epitome of why the Remain camp have lost the argument, and no-deal is more likely that remain. It’s a shame for those decent remainers that have tried to reason with facts, and keep it measured and respectful, you’ve been let down by the charlatans at the top who like Farage are out to just look after themselves.

It is a pity that Blair is so tainted. He can actually put a point across and could have - in his pre Iraq days - have been a convincing alternative to Farage. There isn’t a demagogue alternative to Farage. If you try to point out that leaving won’t solve the real problems in the UK, you are accused of being tedious. Literally.

There is not a sovereignty problem, or a control of our money problem as we are not in the Euro. Neither are there uncontrolled borders to the UK.. apart from Ireland. There are EU rules which allow expulsion of people abusing the system by staying more than 3 months without sufficient income.

All bullshit from leavers.

Unfortunately there is no one untainted and capable of convincing leave voters that the leave slogans were just there to wind people up.

Populism works. It always has worked. But, it has always ended in tears for someone.

 

[martcov]

Which equates to the lie that we would all be so much better off back in the day when joining. Are 'we' better off? Some are...the wealthy definitely...but is that thanks to domestic or EU policy & opportunity? 'We' having become more & more dissafected with politics & numbers (e.g. average earnings, government investments in house building/NHS/education etc) making things 'better' but that 'better' not being visible or exeriential to us the end-user...'we' that consider things simplistically cannot express what is actually 'better'. So numbers & forecast & opinions of 'experts' & polls become irrelevant.

The powers that be only have themselves to blame. They have historically (& still do) cherry-picked, distorted, influenced, lied & downright cheated us so much that 'we' trust little or nothing they say anymore & vote with pure emotion. That emotion is fuelled by media agenda to bias to the extreme. Virtually everything has become meaningless beyond the here & now, & it's impact upon 'me'

So it - reap it

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We are better off and we have a longer life expectancy.

The wealth distribution in the UK has nothing to do with the EU.

There is the same problem in the USA which isn’t in the EU, or in places such as Russia. Other EU countries do not have the extremes that the US and the UK have. So you are falling into the old „blame the EU“ diversionary trap. As programmed by the absolutely biased tabloid press and the Telegraph. Mostly owned by non resident billionaires. You then accuse the media of being anti Brexit. It is tedious trying to converse with people like you.

 

[djr8369]

Which equates to the lie that we would all be so much better off back in the day when joining. Are 'we' better off? Some are...the wealthy definitely...but is that thanks to domestic or EU policy & opportunity? 'We' having become more & more dissafected with politics & numbers (e.g. average earnings, government investments in house building/NHS/education etc) making things 'better' but that 'better' not being visible or exeriential to us the end-user...'we' that consider things simplistically cannot express what is actually 'better'. So numbers & forecast & opinions of 'experts' & polls become irrelevant.

The powers that be only have themselves to blame. They have historically (& still do) cherry-picked, distorted, influenced, lied & downright cheated us so much that 'we' trust little or nothing they say anymore & vote with pure emotion. That emotion is fuelled by media agenda to bias to the extreme. Virtually everything has become meaningless beyond the here & now, & it's impact upon 'me'

So it - reap it

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I understand people feel the powerful are corrupt and want to destroy the system and stick it to them but the Brexiters and the people funding them are the powerful too and they will use the circumstances it creates to extract as much wealth as they can from the U.K. and it’s people. They are already paving the way to a trade agreement with the USA.

As for media bias - the media is predominately owned by a few wealthy billionaires who donate to the Conservative party and ensure the media narrative is slanted to their favour.


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[djr8369]

For me I don’t think there has been anywhere near enough effort made to try and understand why Leave won.

Putting aside the Boris bus, the immigration card for one second - I firmly believe the main catalyst was austerity and the inequality of wealth that it exacerbated.

A lot of the so-called analysis post referendum focused on areas like ‘highest level of education’ or ‘socio-economic class’ primarily in my opinion to fit a narrative that was something like ‘lesser educated or lesser skilled people were more likely to vote leave’.

The problem is that was the wrong way to look at it. The analysis should have been looking at way more important factors such as: median house price, average wage, proportion of social housing/private rental/homeowners, employment percentage, %age living in relative poverty, investment in infrastructure, proportions of tax credits... the list could go on and on. This analysis should be by ward, council, constituency - whatever it took to get a true picture of why. Are these areas post industrial? Are they trial areas for Universal Credit? This was a once in a generation decision, and required a once in a generation analysis afterwards.

I bet the correlation between these measures and the leave vote would be a lot more conclusive (although not completely definitive) - and allow people to truly understand the true story behind Leave... A failure by New Labour, the Coalition and the Tories to stop communities behind left behind, and a failure to protect the vulnerable and most in need.

Instead 2 years afterwards we get Tony Blair coming out and saying he thinks we should have another vote... you know the same guy who said we should have gone to war. He is the epitome of why the Remain camp have lost the argument, and no-deal is more likely that remain. It’s a shame for those decent remainers that have tried to reason with facts, and keep it measured and respectful, you’ve been let down by the charlatans at the top who like Farage are out to just look after themselves.

I agree about austerity and inequality we’re major factors but these were some of the points Blair raised. I agree with you that it was a poor tactical move to involve him though as he has too much baggage.

It’s all well and good explaining wealth disparity and its causes but it’s too dull to beat slogans and moronic memes like “EUSSR”


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[Astute]

Whether things improve depends on the UK government. The Union is not a super state and does not rule the UK. The UK government is responsible for the UK economy, and more importantly, wealth distribution within the UK. You just fell into the trap. Blame the EU. Ignore the fact that the UK has a sovereign parliament and passes it’s own laws.

Back to Selmayr and Juncker soon. Lets the UK government off the hook.

Leaving solves nothing. If anything it creates more potential problems by putting the country into the situation of a distressed trading partner. A pointless for the point of view of the UK less well off, but handy for creating a more US style economy away from EU labour rights and regulatory protections. Plus it takes the heat of Crown Colony tax havens.

Why do you have to act like an idiot to try and put across a point that doesn't exist?

Read what I said again and then explain how you got it to this rubbish you have put here.

Let the government off the hook? Just show once where I have defended them. The difference is that I have a go at all sides. They all have played their part in this fiasco. I don't try to defend one of the sides like you have done every day for the last 3 years.

Yes Farage is a twat. But those trying to force through a remain verdict are making it easy for him. And people like yourself doesn't help matters either.

 

[martcov]

I understand people feel the powerful are corrupt and want to destroy the system and stick it to them but the Brexiters and the people funding them are the powerful too and they will use the circumstances it creates to extract as much wealth as they can from the U.K. and it’s people. They are already paving the way to a trade agreement with the USA.

As for media bias - the media is predominately owned by a few wealthy billionaires who donate to the Conservative party and ensure the media narrative is slanted to their favour.


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This is the real discussion the UK should be having:
"When the wealth of the richest 1,000 people in Britain has increased by £50 billion in one year, but there's not enough money to properly feed our children, we have failed as a society."


Jeremy Corbyn says "the government is in the pockets of a super-rich elite".

Like Corbyn or not, he is right. Brexit will only give more power to the people like Farage, Mogg, Banks and their US style politics.

Corbyn should be leading the opposition to thwart Brexit and tackle the actual problems, not the concocted problem of lack of sovereignty, control of our money and borders.

 

[martcov]

Why do you have to act like an idiot to try and put across a point that doesn't exist?

Read what I said again and then explain how you got it to this rubbish you have put here.

Let the government off the hook? Just show once where I have defended them. The difference is that I have a go at all sides. They all have played their part in this fiasco. I don't try to defend one of the sides like you have done every day for the last 3 years.

Yes Farage is a twat. But those trying to force through a remain verdict are making it easy for him. And people like yourself doesn't help matters either.

How many pages have you spent on Selmayr? An absolute irrelevance to the actual problems of the UK and the arguments for remain or leave. Saying that Brexit doesn’t solve any of the actual problems of the UK is not defence of the EU. It is a justified criticism of Brexit.

We should have voted remain and got down to solving the UK‘s problems. Brexit is a massive distraction and is prolonging suffering that could be reduced if there were a government more concerned with the people instead of political ideology and some mistaken duty to see a mistake through to it’s obviously negative conclusion.

 

[Astute]

This is the real discussion the UK should be having:
"When the wealth of the richest 1,000 people in Britain has increased by £50 billion in one year, but there's not enough money to properly feed our children, we have failed as a society."


Jeremy Corbyn says "the government is in the pockets of a super-rich elite".

Like Corbyn or not, he is right. Brexit will only give more power to the people like Farage, Mogg, Banks and their US style politics.

Corbyn should be leading the opposition to thwart Brexit and tackle the actual problems, not the concocted problem of lack of sovereignty, control of our money and borders.

Corbyn doesn't have stopping Brexit as a priority. His priority is to become PM. Corbyn was always for leaving the EU. Now he says and does what he thinks is best for gaining votes.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I understand people feel the powerful are corrupt and want to destroy the system and stick it to them but the Brexiters and the people funding them are the powerful too and they will use the circumstances it creates to extract as much wealth as they can from the U.K. and it’s people. They are already paving the way to a trade agreement with the USA.

As for media bias - the media is predominately owned by a few wealthy billionaires who donate to the Conservative party and ensure the media narrative is slanted to their favour.


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Yep, can't disagree with any of that

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[martcov]

Corbyn doesn't have stopping Brexit as a priority. His priority is to become PM. Corbyn was always for leaving the EU. Now he says and does what he thinks is best for gaining votes.

My criticism is basically that.

 

[Ian1779]

Corbyn doesn't have stopping Brexit as a priority. His priority is to become PM. Corbyn was always for leaving the EU. Now he says and does what he thinks is best for gaining votes.

I agree - I think he believes these issues are more important, and also believes his party are the only ones that can rectify them, hence his priority to become PM.

I do think Labour are the only ones with the desire to make a step change... the ability and competence? Well that’s a debate for another day.

 

[Astute]

How many pages have you spent on Selmayr? An absolute irrelevance to the actual problems of the UK and the arguments for remain or leave. Saying that Brexit doesn’t solve any of the actual problems of the UK is not defence of the EU. It is a justified criticism of Brexit.

We should have voted remain and got down to solving the UK‘s problems. Brexit is a massive distraction and is prolonging suffering that could be reduced if there were a government more concerned with the people instead of political ideology and some mistaken duty to see a mistake through to it’s obviously negative conclusion.

Oh yes Selmayr.

You still don't seem to get the point. You keep saying that the EU can't change rules and regulations for us. You say they can't bend rules and regulations for us. But when they need to they break rules and regulations. They even break the law. And as you say there is no transparency in the EU and how it is run. And then you make all the excuses up for them.

They should be held accountable for what happened. I'm not bothered what excuses you come out with on their behalf. But what does make me laugh is how you seem to think it is OK for the EU to break rules and regulations and even break the law but you then spit your dummy out when someone uses freedom of speech.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I agree about austerity and inequality we’re major factors but these were some of the points Blair raised. I agree with you that it was a poor tactical move to involve him though as he has too much baggage.

It’s all well and good explaining wealth disparity and its causes but it’s too dull to beat slogans and moronic memes like “EUSSR”

Blair's the only charismatic individual Remain have, sadly, as he's too tainted to be any use.

When he was in favour, pre-Iraq, people were happy to buy into the liberalisation of employment markets and multiculturalism like nobody's business.

 

[Astute]

Blair's the only charismatic individual Remain have, sadly, as he's too tainted to be any use.

When he was in favour, pre-Iraq, people were happy to buy into the liberalisation of employment markets and multiculturalism like nobody's business.

That was people buying into Tory principles that would never vote Tory. Even the Tories loved him.

 

[martcov]

Oh yes Selmayr.

You still don't seem to get the point. You keep saying that the EU can't change rules and regulations for us. You say they can't bend rules and regulations for us. But when they need to they break rules and regulations. They even break the law. And as you say there is no transparency in the EU and how it is run. And then you make all the excuses up for them.

They should be held accountable for what happened. I'm not bothered what excuses you come out with on their behalf. But what does make me laugh is how you seem to think it is OK for the EU to break rules and regulations and even break the law but you then spit your dummy out when someone uses freedom of speech.

Maladministration or changing the 4 freedoms of the EU to suit a country that is leaving are 2 totally different scenarios. It’s like comparing a bad penalty decision for some team with CCFC being thrown out of the league for not having a stadium to play in. Selmayr is an irrelevance.

 

[martcov]

That was people buying into Tory principles that would never vote Tory. Even the Tories loved him.

Which is what I meant in terms of selling remain to leavers.

 

[Astute]

Maladministration or changing the 4 freedoms of the EU to suit a country that is leaving are 2 totally different scenarios. It’s like comparing a bad penalty decision for some team with CCFC being thrown out of the league for not having a stadium to play in. Selmayr is an irrelevance.

And here you go again. Selmayr an irrelevance? It shows how crooked the whole setup is. As you said it shows there is no transparency in the way the EU is run.

Who said about changing 4 freedoms? Only you.

I want exactly what you want. But I am not prepared to lie constantly to try and make a point. I am more interested in the truth.

 

[Astute]

Which is what I meant in terms of selling remain to leavers.

Which is what I constantly said before. But you as usual went off on one against me.

 

[Ian1779]

Which is what I meant in terms of selling remain to leavers.

This will never work until there is that infrastructure change in the EU, and the commitment to a massive change in the way the UK looks after it citizens.

 

[martcov]

This will never work until there is that infrastructure change in the EU, and the commitment to a massive change in the way the UK looks after it citizens.

What do you class as infrastructure change?

 

[martcov]

And here you go again. Selmayr an irrelevance? It shows how crooked the whole setup is. As you said it shows there is no transparency in the way the EU is run.

Who said about changing 4 freedoms? Only you.

I want exactly what you want. But I am not prepared to lie constantly to try and make a point. I am more interested in the truth.

No comment.

 

[Ian1779]

What do you class as infrastructure change?

The corruption in the EU has to be eliminated for a start (as it does here in the UK)

 

[skybluetony176]

No he didn’t. He spat his dummy out when confronted with his own statements. Just shows why his party won’t mention any of their aims except to leave without a plan.

So Nigel Farage hates the BBC’s tough questions? What a snowflake

 

[martcov]

The corruption in the EU has to be eliminated for a start (as it does here in the UK)

Yes, well I think that’s what anyone, apart from those that benefit, would say. Leaving won’t stop that.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Yes, well I think that’s what anyone, apart from those that benefit, would say. Leaving won’t stop that.

Mart do you actually support cov or are you just a member on this site to argue about brexit