The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (76 Viewers)

[martcov]

Haha. I said the UK has been heavily involved in wars. Bombing and sending in troops or SAS elite troops from a professional full time army and Air Force is being heavily involved by most people’s standards.

I am not white washing German history. Germany is peaceful country for several reasons. The allies did the opposite to the Versailles treaty. Instead of forcing Germany to pay massive damages, they gave them the Marshall Plan ( as with the U.K. ) and tried to get Germany back on it’s feet. Including in the from the UK occupied region. E.g. the U.K. started the Hanover Industrie Fair in 1948.

They took their toys off them and sunk their fleet of warships. The USA ( and the Russians ) took the leading scientists such as Von Braun, and also some ex Gestapo or SS members. Work that out.

The French and Germans were behind the start of trading treaties in coal and steel, the things you need to go to war. By sharing the trade you are both in control. That evolved into the EU, the end of internal borders through Schengen and the ability to live, trade and work throughout Europe. There is no intention to create a situation where a war breaks out. A fantastic achievement.

One reason Germany had a written constitution given to it to prevent going to war in effect, was to make sure there were enough hurdles in it to prevent future wars.

The reason why there were hundreds of thousands of troops in Germany at times during the post war period, was not to stop Germany building up an army, as that was stopped by the constitution and it didn’t have an army capable of war or atom bombs, was to stop the spread of communism. Germany was used as the front line to keep people like yourself safe from communism.

The EU is a great project to keep Europe together in the face of a changing world. You should’nt knock it.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

Haha. I said the UK has been heavily involved in wars. Bombing and sending in troops or SAS elite troops from a professional full time army and Air Force is being heavily involved by most people’s standards.

I am not white washing German history. Germany is peaceful country for several reasons. The allies did the opposite to the Versailles treaty. Instead of forcing Germany to pay massive damages, they gave them the Marshall Plan ( as with the U.K. ) and tried to get Germany back on it’s feet. Including in the from the UK occupied region. E.g. the U.K. started the Hanover Industrie Fair in 1948.

They took their toys off them and sunk their fleet of warships. The USA ( and the Russians ) took the leading scientists such as Von Braun, and also some ex Gestapo or SS members. Work that out.

The French and Germans were behind the start of trading treaties in coal and steel, the things you need to go to war. By sharing the trade you are both in control. That evolved into the EU, the end of internal borders through Schengen and the ability to live, trade and work throughout Europe. There is no intention to create a situation where a war breaks out. A fantastic achievement.

One reason Germany had a written constitution given to it to prevent going to war in effect, was to make sure there were enough hurdles in it to prevent future wars.

The reason why there were hundreds of thousands of troops in Germany at times during the post war period, was not to stop Germany building up an army, as that was stopped by the constitution and it didn’t have an army capable of war or atom bombs, was to stop the spread of communism. Germany was used as the front line to keep people like yourself safe from communism.

The EU is a great project to keep Europe together in the face of a changing world. You should’nt knock it.

Britain wrote Germany's modern constitution didn't it? I think the 'losing' the war ultimately worked out a lot better for them than our 'victory' did for us.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Britain wrote Germany's modern constitution didn't it? I think the 'losing' the war ultimately worked out a lot better for them than our 'victory' did for us.

We were lazy and careless, propped ourselves up with a captive market of an empire.

And held on to past dreams that we were stronger than we were, ignoring the reality and pursuing a suicidal lone furrow for too many years...

 

[CCFCSteve]

We were lazy and careless, propped ourselves up with a captive market of an empire.

And held on to past dreams that we were stronger than we were, ignoring the reality and pursuing a suicidal lone furrow for too many years...

Maybe, but that’s forgetting what we have also given the world. I also think as a nation we are one of the most generous

 

[martcov]

Britain wrote Germany's modern constitution didn't it? I think the 'losing' the war ultimately worked out a lot better for them than our 'victory' did for us.

In some senses yes. I don’t think they would voluntarily go to war again though. Their industry was modernised. There was no choice about that. That gave them an advantage over the UK which in the 60s, 70s and early 80s was way behind.Germany had modern clean factories built in industrial areas with good infrastructure. The UK has caught up a lot compared to those days. Even the trade unions were better set up. In the 80s I was in a Union and went to union seminars organised by the TUC. They told me they preferred the German system of a few big unions hammering out a deal every 2 years and then both sides sticking to it, as opposed to the whole group including smaller unions that could stop the whole production for reasons such as puddles, tea machine broken down etc.. We set up the German system, but it took decades to reform our own.

 

[martcov]

Maybe, but that’s forgetting what we have also given the world. I also think as a nation we are one of the most generous

I‘m not sure all ex colonies would agree, but we have set up things such as the Indian Civil Service and democratic systems that are in some cases better than our own in concept.

A bit of constructive self criticism ( not a guilt complex) would do more for future policy than reverting to bygone times.

We need a revision of our democratic system, the Lords, PR?and our education system with a priority given to what Americans call „civics“.

It is painfully obvious that although we have been members of the EU for over 40 years people still rely on information about how it works from dubious sources e.g. Farage, BoJo, the Print Media and SM.

Reasons for leaving include: 2 pin plugs, newspapers for fish and chip wrapping, regulation of candle wicks and banana curvature. FFS.

Not to mention blue passports, which we are allowed to have, and kippers from the IOM having to have an ice cushion, which is British packaging legislation, and the IOM is not in the EU.

This could be a parody, but it isn’t.

 

[djr8369]

Maybe, but that’s forgetting what we have also given the world. I also think as a nation we are one of the most generous

In what way?


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[CCFCSteve]

Generosity wise, just look at the charity work and donations by the public at large, the foreign aid budget, the military support we provide to countries around the world (that we could potentially just ignore and leave alone).

It’s easy to do this country down but sometimes people forget what have done and continue to do. Not all I/everyone will agree with but by enlarge it is done for the greater good and often not always for our direct benefit.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Generosity wise, just look at the charity work and donations by the public at large, the foreign aid budget, the military support we provide to countries around the world (that we could potentially just ignore and leave alone).

It’s easy to do this country down but sometimes people forget what have done and continue to do. Not all I/everyone will agree with but by enlarge it is done for the greater good and often not always for our direct benefit.

What's that got to do with our economic decline relative to Germany after the war?

 

[djr8369]

Generosity wise, just look at the charity work and donations by the public at large, the foreign aid budget, the military support we provide to countries around the world (that we could potentially just ignore and leave alone).

It’s easy to do this country down but sometimes people forget what have done and continue to do. Not all I/everyone will agree with but by enlarge it is done for the greater good and often not always for our direct benefit.

As a percentage of GDP our foreign aid isn’t that high and is mainly focussed on things that will benefit us in the long run.

A lot of the military aid is the same, it’s an economic or influence decision although there has been some great disaster relief work.


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[CCFCSteve]

What's that got to do with our economic decline relative to Germany after the war?

I was talking generally in response to your comment about us being lazy and careless. I disagreed. Djr then asked for examples

I also disagree with the term ‘economic decline’, I’m not sure that’s an fair assessment. For the size of our country and the natural resources at our disposal we have done pretty well. We could all hark back to the cost of two world wars and probably the our generosity in dealings with Germany (which was the correct thing to do). However, we are still consistently around 5-6th best performing economy in the world.

Mart - in response to your comments about self criticism, I think most people acknowledge faults of the past, even though most of us (and even parents and some grandparents) weren’t alive so had no influence. Whatever ever people want to believe we remain one of the most tolerant and accepting countries in the world.

 

[CCFCSteve]

As a percentage of GDP our foreign aid isn’t that high and is mainly focussed on things that will benefit us in the long run.

A lot of the military aid is the same, it’s an economic or influence decision although there has been some great disaster relief work.


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There’s no arguing with some people who would prefer to do the country down. I’ll let you have a look on wiki about international aid (remember we contribute via the EU as well). In addition have a look at charitable donations per country.

Sorry Deleted member 5849, it’s gone off at a bit of tangent...my bad !

 

[CCFCSteve]

ps remember we borrow every penny of that foreign aid so you can probably gross it up !!!

 

[djr8369]

There’s no arguing with some people who would prefer to do the country down. I’ll let you have a look on wiki about international aid (remember we contribute via the EU as well). In addition have a look at charitable donations per country.

Sorry Deleted member 5849, it’s gone off at a bit of tangent...my bad !

I’m not disputing those schemes exist just that not all of it is out of generosity. This is well documented and I believe the foreign aid budget was going to be reviewed due to some of the issues.

It’s nothing to do with putting the country down it’s just realism.


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[Grendel]

What's that got to do with our economic decline relative to Germany after the war?

Much of Germany’s prosperity particular in the last 3 decades has been as a direct result of the way the EU is skewed to benefit their economy at the expense of others

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No I don’t. I just slagged off Trump for getting morons to chant send them back about him telling non aryans to leave his country if they don’t like it. The point is that they are Americans and do like America, but don’t like everything about the way it is run. Then the deflection turns to you try to slag the UK off.

With the Trump rally with him using quotes to highlight how much the Congresswoman hated America resulting in the chanting:

There are numerous examples of Trump being critical of America, especially during the Obama era - would he be classified as 'hating America' especially by his fanbase? I dare say they'd argue that it's constructive criticism and how Donald wants the US to be even better. Why this Congresswoman isn't being constructive and instead just hates America for doing the same thing is anyone's guess (ok, you probably only need one)

I'd love to see a Daily Show piece whereby they get Trump supporters and give them a load of quotes critical of America from the likes of those Congresswomen, but add in some Trump quotes and ask them if the people saying these things hate America and should leave.

For the record Donald doesn't love America. If it stopped him doing what he wanted he'd turn against the place in a heartbeat.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I’m not disputing those schemes exist just that not all of it is out of generosity. This is well documented and I believe the foreign aid budget was going to be reviewed due to some of the issues.

It’s nothing to do with putting the country down it’s just realism.


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Most of it is. Some of it misguided maybe. I’m just trying to highlight the fact that whatever our faults, compared with a large number (majority) of countries we do our bit.

Ps It does need to be reviewed, that’s for certain. I’d have it more aligned to disaster assistance and investment in infrastructure projects in the poorest countries. If we don’t spend it one year, roll it into the next, don’t waste it.

 

[djr8369]

Most of it is. Some of it misguided maybe. I’m just trying to highlight the fact that whatever our faults, compared with a large number (majority) of countries we do our bit.

Ps It does need to be reviewed, that’s for certain. I’d have it more aligned to disaster assistance and investment in infrastructure projects in the poorest countries. If we don’t spend it one year, roll it into the next, don’t waste it.

I don’t disagree with any of that. I suppose it’s like anything else where it becomes open to abuse eventually. I think most of the criticism was around the fact they were donating to British based businesses and giving them an advantage against the domestic businesses which in turn leads to money flowing out of the country. In many cases people controlling the spending had stakes in the businesses they were donating to.


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[Sick Boy]

Maybe, but that’s forgetting what we have also given the world. I also think as a nation we are one of the most generous

I’m not sure the colonies would agree. Take off the British rose tinted glasses and the country’s treatment of its colonies is brutal to say the least.

 

[djr8369]

I’m not sure the colonies would agree. Take off the British rose tinted glasses and the country’s treatment of its colonies is brutal to say the least.

Also true. We’re only the wealthy country we are due to the empire.


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[CCFCSteve]

I’m not sure the colonies would agree. Take off the British rose tinted glasses and the country’s treatment of its colonies is brutal to say the least.

‘Is brutal’ ? Do you mean ‘was’ ?

Unfortunately, as I said in response to Marts comment earlier, I/we don’t have a time machine !

 

[Grendel]

‘Is brutal’ ? Do you mean ‘was’ ?

Unfortunately, as I said in response to Marts comment earlier, I/we don’t have a time machine !

It’s boring, oddly we were not the only country to colonise others across the globe.

It’s sixth form levels of debating

 

[Grendel]

Also true. We’re only the wealthy country we are due to the empire.


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Whet an intelligent thought out statement

 

[skybluetony176]

With the Trump rally with him using quotes to highlight how much the Congresswoman hated America resulting in the chanting:

There are numerous examples of Trump being critical of America, especially during the Obama era - would he be classified as 'hating America' especially by his fanbase? I dare say they'd argue that it's constructive criticism and how Donald wants the US to be even better. Why this Congresswoman isn't being constructive and instead just hates America for doing the same thing is anyone's guess (ok, you probably only need one)

I'd love to see a Daily Show piece whereby they get Trump supporters and give them a load of quotes critical of America from the likes of those Congresswomen, but add in some Trump quotes and ask them if the people saying these things hate America and should leave.

For the record Donald doesn't love America. If it stopped him doing what he wanted he'd turn against the place in a heartbeat.

I think it was one of John McCains daughters who made this point at his funeral wham she said that her father never bought into the motto make America great again, he was always of the opinion that America has never been anything other than great.

 

[djr8369]

It’s sixth form levels of debating

Are you going to accuse people of being Nazis again today?



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[djr8369]

It’s boring, oddly we were not the only country to colonise others across the globe.

What an intelligent thought out statement.




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[Grendel]

Are you going to accuse people of being Nazis again today?



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Well given that someone who throws the ooh you are racist I’d say that’s a pretty ironic comment

 

[Grendel]

What an intelligent thought out statement.




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It is boring and it’s not relevant - shall we blame the Norwegians for a Viking invasion as we never had it so good before then?

 

[skybluetony176]

Whet an intelligent thought out statement

So how common was the wealth of the commonwealth? Which populations benefited from the spices we took from their country after we invaded and took over? Or gold and other precious metals? Or diamonds and other precious stones? Or oil? Or sugar? Or rubber? etc etc. How much were the slaves paid? What incentives were they offered to leave their homelands to go and work in other parts of the commonwealth?

 

[Grendel]

So how common was the wealth of the commonwealth? Which populations benefited from the spices we took from their country after we invaded and took over? Or gold and other precious metals? Or diamonds and other precious stones? Or oil? Or sugar? Or rubber? etc etc. How much were the slaves paid? What incentives were they offered to leave their homelands to go and work in other parts of the commonwealth?

Ditto every other country across Europe - yawn

 

[djr8369]

It is boring and it’s not relevant - shall we blame the Norwegians for a Viking invasion as we never had it so good before then?

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything it’s just a reflection on the source of our wealth we are supposedly generous in giving away.

It can be acknowledged and spoken about without people getting all defensive.


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[djr8369]

Well given that someone who throws the ooh you are racist I’d say that’s a pretty ironic comment

No it isn’t ironic. Yesterday the attitude shown on here to Germany was clearly a form of racism.


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[djr8369]

Ditto every other country across Europe - yawn

That doesn’t make it not true. As usual you’re focusing on distraction rather than addressing anything directly.


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[skybluetony176]

Ditto every other country across Europe - yawn

Of course they did. No one is suggesting otherwise. No one did it as “well” as us though which is why the point is very pertinent to the conversation you’re doing you’re best to distract from. I was in Bristol (also happens to be one of my favourite cities in the country) for work yesterday. Full of beautiful old colonial buildings, clearly Bristol was a very wealthy city in its day. Tell me. What was that wealth built on?

 

[Grendel]

Nobody is blaming anyone for anything it’s just a reflection on the source of our wealth we are supposedly generous in giving away.

It can be acknowledged and spoken about without people getting all defensive.


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The source of all other countries across Europe as well. It’s hardly defensive just curiosity at the selection of the country you live in as the example you choose.