The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (150 Viewers)

[Astute]

Specifically what do you think should have happened differently?

I’m being patient here as you’re only ever condescending to people and seem to think you’re the only reasonable person here.


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Only reasonable person?

Negotiations didn't really happen. May was told what they would accept. May tried to sell it to us. But it was such a bad offering that no side in the UK was willing to accept it.

Do you disagree with any of this?

 

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[Sick Boy]

Only reasonable person?

Negotiations didn't really happen. May was told what they would accept. May tried to sell it to us. But it was such a bad offering that no side in the UK was willing to accept it.

Do you disagree with any of this?

What happened to the UK had the strongest hand in negotiations? I wasn’t aware that May was actually leading negotiations the whole time and no Brexiteers were involved in them.

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah you’re right. Both parties are full of ideological crazies.


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Has ever been thus. Normal people don’t join and be active in political parties.

 

[shmmeee]

Only reasonable person?

Negotiations didn't really happen. May was told what they would accept. May tried to sell it to us. But it was such a bad offering that no side in the UK was willing to accept it.

Do you disagree with any of this?

Yes. The EU made compromises to fit with our own red lines.

Mays deal is literally the only deal possible that meets all of her red lines. We got exactly what we asked for.

Then we complained about it.

 

[djr8369]

Yes. The EU made compromises to fit with our own red lines.

Mays deal is literally the only deal possible that meets all of her red lines. We got exactly what we asked for.

Then we complained about it.

Exactly. Tweaks were made (negotiated) but it’s also the only way of meeting the red lines, legalities and reality of the situation (keeping integrity of SM etc) so I think Astute is being intentionally disingenuous here.


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[torchomatic]

Vengeance? I assume you mean some angry tweets and stuff like that?

Remember that good old Tom Watson ‘the sensible Labour members’ champion thought it was perfectly fine to bully a person in the middle of chemotherapy.... but that’s OK I suppose because he’s not a Marxist/Communist.

Ah, "angry tweets and stuff". Yes, that's right. You can see anytime anyone says anything against Dear Jeremy, the usual lot: Sarkar, Jones, Bastani, Zarb, those fucking awful Canary woman and Jon, aka Rachel from Swindon go on their co-ordinated attacks. They had it in for Dom Jolly a few weeks ago as he dared defend someone being attacked by Corbyn's mob.

As for Formby, if she's working (which she is) then she should be open to criticism and rightly so what with her dreadful handling of AS cases. If she's not fit to work then she should be off and someone else should be dealing with Labour's issues. I've been through chemo and I know how shit it is, but the last thing I thought about was work.

I joined Labour in 1983, voted for them all my life and was a member until 2016. I could no longer stand it. I went to local CLP meetings and the atmosphere to anyone not backing Jeremy 100% was truly dreadful. Until Labour get a new leader then me and millions like me will not vote for them.

On another thread I was asked to provide evidence of AS. That is part of Labour's problem, the "it's all a smear, they're scared of Jeremy" crowd. Until they acknowledge the fundamental issues with Corbyn and the party then they will remain unelectable, which is sad for someone like me.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Ah, "angry tweets and stuff". Yes, that's right. You can see anytime anyone says anything against Dear Jeremy, the usual lot: Sarkar, Jones, Bastani, Zarb, those fucking awful Canary woman and Jon, aka Rachel from Swindon go on their co-ordinated attacks. They had it in for Dom Jolly a few weeks ago as he dared defend someone being attacked by Corbyn's mob.

As for Formby, if she's working (which she is) then she should be open to criticism and rightly so what with her dreadful handling of AS cases. If she's not fit to work then she should be off and someone else should be dealing with Labour's issues. I've been through chemo and I know how shit it is, but the last thing I thought about was work.

I joined Labour in 1983, voted for them all my life and was a member until 2016. I could no longer stand it. I went to local CLP meetings and the atmosphere to anyone not backing Jeremy 100% was truly dreadful. Until Labour get a new leader then me and millions like me will not vote for them.

On another thread I was asked to provide evidence of AS. That is part of Labour's problem, the "it's all a smear, they're scared of Jeremy" crowd. Until they acknowledge the fundamental issues with Corbyn and the party then they will remain unelectable, which is sad for someone like me.

That is a real shame torch & echoes the impression I have formed. I could be wrong but it seems that the Tory way since Maggie has been more trying to carry party members & electorate with them rather than the "we all will do/say this" in some false united front. The Tory way seems to result in a more publicly divided front.

Interestingly, Blair took the more nurturing approach. It seemed to me to change in Labour while Milliband was leader. And for the Tories I suspect it is becoming more dogmatic behind the scenes right now.

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[Astute]

The UK voted for Brexit and leaving the EU, so of course it’s a British made problem. The Leavers promised something that wasn’t possible and wasn’t going to happen, yet now they can’t deliver it’s being blamed on the EU, which is not really a surprise.

So the cause of people wanting to leave was nothing to do with anyone but those in the UK?

I suppose that all the leaders of the countries in the EU saying reforms are needed doesn't show there are problems with the way the EU is run?

As I said I have been offered the side of the French public without asking for it. Yet you never made a comment about this. You chose another sentence to have a go at to make out it is all the fault of the UK.

France is a great country (as long as you keep away from Paris). People are worried about the direction that Macron is taking them in. And now we could be leaving without a deal they are even more worried. It is more than top line and bottom line. They have whole districts kept afloat by the British £. I am in one right now. But I suppose those who have never been here before will kniw better.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

 

[Sick Boy]

So the cause of people wanting to leave was nothing to do with anyone but those in the UK?

I suppose that all the leaders of the countries in the EU saying reforms are needed doesn't show there are problems with the way the EU is run?

As I said I have been offered the side of the French public without asking for it. Yet you never made a comment about this. You chose another sentence to have a go at to make out it is all the fault of the UK.

France is a great country (as long as you keep away from Paris). People are worried about the direction that Macron is taking them in. And now we could be leaving without a deal they are even more worried. It is more than top line and bottom line. They have whole districts kept afloat by the British £. I am in one right now. But I suppose those who have never been here before will kniw better.

You're basing the views of the French public upon someone you met in a bar? The notion that the likes of France and Spain are kept afloat by Brits is aburd.

I've spent a lot of time in the south of France and the picture you're painting of a British love fest is not quite true. There is more resentment in terms of them buying up holiday homes and pushing up house prices for the young.

 

[Sick Boy]

My parents have booked to come over to Italy during it, I think with an excuse of ending up staying here for weeks

 

[Astute]

What happened to the UK had the strongest hand in negotiations? I wasn’t aware that May was actually leading negotiations the whole time and no Brexiteers were involved in them.

I said that the UK had a stronger hand than had been used so far. Because we never had a say in any negotiations. Negotiating is a two sided thing. We were dictated to. Were you happy with what we were dictated to? This is what was supposedly the May deal. May was dictated to.

 

[Astute]

You're basing the views of the French public upon someone you met in a bar? The notion that the likes of France and Spain are kept afloat by Brits is aburd.

I've spent a lot of time in the south of France and the picture you're painting of a British love fest is not quite true. There is more resentment in terms of them buying up holiday homes and pushing up house prices for the young.

Pushing up prices on houses they don't want to buy? Can we keep to the truth please? We have bought a property with lots of land and a lake for less than 30k. We are looking at a 17th century cottage with 6 bedrooms for 68k.

So are you going to have a go at why the prices of houses in the UK have continued to go up to where the young can't afford? Of course not. It doesn't go with the point you constantly put across. So what can you buy in England for?

 

[Astute]

Yes. The EU made compromises to fit with our own red lines.

Mays deal is literally the only deal possible that meets all of her red lines. We got exactly what we asked for.

Then we complained about it.

Are you happy with what the EU said we can have?

Got what we asked for?

I didn't vote leave.

In fact I don't want any of this happening. But I also don't want most of what the EU wants to push through. I don't like the way the Tories are dealing with the situation they caused. But I also don't like the way the EU promotes people to the top positions.

And I don't like the way people like yourself try to make out I say things I haven't just because I see both sides of the argument. I'm not happy with the way the UK is run and I'm not happy with the way the EU is run. But I am not supposed to mention the bad parts of the EU but am supposed to constantly go on about everything wrong about the UK.

 

[Astute]

Exactly. Tweaks were made (negotiated) but it’s also the only way of meeting the red lines, legalities and reality of the situation (keeping integrity of SM etc) so I think Astute is being intentionally disingenuous here.


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Am I?

Explain how instead of making your normal accusations.

 

[djr8369]

Am I?

Explain how instead of making your normal accusations.

I think you know negotiations took place and changes were made. I think you also know that most of the things we had to compromise on are practical or legal realities with very little room for manoeuvre. If you don’t know that then you’re not as balanced as you like to make out.

What are my usual accusations?


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[Sick Boy]

I said that the UK had a stronger hand than had been used so far. Because we never had a say in any negotiations. Negotiating is a two sided thing. We were dictated to. Were you happy with what we were dictated to? This is what was supposedly the May deal. May was dictated to.

We can't have had such a strong hand if we were dictated to though. Was May leading negotiations?

 

[torchomatic]

Sunlit uplands.

 

[djr8369]

Sunlit uplands.

We’re now supposed to believe that leave voters believed and voted for “project fear”. Can anyone genuinely deny that this is now a case of mass delusion fed by propaganda?


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[djr8369]

We’re now supposed to believe that leave voters believed and voted for “project fear”. Can anyone genuinely deny that this is now a case of mass delusion fed by propaganda?


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Just need Astute to turn up now with something like “So you’re saying Juncker is perfect? You remain whatever types can’t see both sides of the argument like I can”


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[Grendel]

We’re now supposed to believe that leave voters believed and voted for “project fear”. Can anyone genuinely deny that this is now a case of mass delusion fed by propaganda?


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The leaflet certainly was propaganda

 

[djr8369]

The leaflet certainly was propaganda

I reread it recently and it was very fair and balanced.

Leaving aside your attempt at deflection rather address any issues with Brexit (which I’ve have pointed out before) with everything that’s happened regarding misuse of data, overspending, collusion between different groups and the constantly changing narrative (“great deal” to “we voted for no deal”) can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the leaflet was a problem in the grand scheme of things?


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[torchomatic]

We’re now supposed to believe that leave voters believed and voted for “project fear”. Can anyone genuinely deny that this is now a case of mass delusion fed by propaganda?


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Funny isn't it. Johnson, Raab, Mogg, Farage and all the other nutters constantly told us any negativity or predictions of problems with a no deal told us it was project fear and nothing to worry about.

If that's the case why are they spending £6bn preparing for it? It's going to be brilliant apparently, so let's just use that money on a massive party and celebrate how wonderful Britain will be on 1st November.

Don't know about you but I can't wait for sovereignty, prosperity and being able to "take back control" from the beginning of November.

Every day will be like Christmas Day.

Hurrah for Boris! Hurrah for Farage!

 

[djr8369]

Funny isn't it. Johnson, Raab, Mogg, Farage and all the other nutters constantly told us any negativity or predictions of problems with a no deal told us it was project fear and nothing to worry about.

If that's the case why are they spending £6bn preparing for it? !

Logical fallacies in Brexit? Surely not...


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[Ian1779]

Ah, "angry tweets and stuff". Yes, that's right. You can see anytime anyone says anything against Dear Jeremy, the usual lot: Sarkar, Jones, Bastani, Zarb, those fucking awful Canary woman and Jon, aka Rachel from Swindon go on their co-ordinated attacks. They had it in for Dom Jolly a few weeks ago as he dared defend someone being attacked by Corbyn's mob.

As for Formby, if she's working (which she is) then she should be open to criticism and rightly so what with her dreadful handling of AS cases. If she's not fit to work then she should be off and someone else should be dealing with Labour's issues. I've been through chemo and I know how shit it is, but the last thing I thought about was work.

I joined Labour in 1983, voted for them all my life and was a member until 2016. I could no longer stand it. I went to local CLP meetings and the atmosphere to anyone not backing Jeremy 100% was truly dreadful. Until Labour get a new leader then me and millions like me will not vote for them.

On another thread I was asked to provide evidence of AS. That is part of Labour's problem, the "it's all a smear, they're scared of Jeremy" crowd. Until they acknowledge the fundamental issues with Corbyn and the party then they will remain unelectable, which is sad for someone like me.

Formby wasn’t working that was the entire point. And you say she was doing a shit job, but she was having to clear a 2 year back-log from the last general secretary... you don’t see much criticism for him not doing it properly do you.

You say about Labour being ‘taken over’ but what do you expect? Since 2010 the most imaginative that the Labour right could provide was to essentially copy the Tories on immigration (they did a mug and everything), welfare, foreign policy, austerity. There is no imagination, no ideas, no plan of how to offer voters a better future... that’s why Corbyn got in, and that manifesto which was from his part of the party is light years better than anything that Phillips, Watson, Streeting et al could produce. Maybe people will start listening to that part of the party when they produce something of meaning.

We as Labour members and voters could unite behind this manifesto - give me something that has come from the ‘sensible/centrist’ wing that we can get behind.

 

[Grendel]

I reread it recently and it was very fair and balanced.

Leaving aside your attempt at deflection rather address any issues with Brexit (which I’ve have pointed out before) with everything that’s happened regarding misuse of data, overspending, collusion between different groups and the constantly changing narrative (“great deal” to “we voted for no deal”) can you honestly say, hand on heart, that the leaflet was a problem in the grand scheme of things?


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It went to every household was pro Europe and all its dire warnings of war, emergency budgets and doomsday economy even before we left have been proved totally groundless

Oh no Eu army either I seem to recall

 

[Grendel]

Here’s a right wing journals view on it

HuffPost is now part of Oath

 

[djr8369]

It went to every household was pro Europe and all its dire warnings of war, emergency budgets and doomsday economy even before we left have been proved totally groundless

Oh no Eu army either I seem to recall

None of that was in the leaflet.


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[djr8369]

Here’s a right wing journals view on it

HuffPost is now part of Oath

“We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves, especially in the car industry. There is no sign of this, and UK car manufacturing achieving its 12th successive month of growth in July, with production passing one million units in seven months for the first time in 12 years. Lie number 7.”

This has aged well.




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[Grendel]

This isn’t spin? Last bit is interesting. Osborne said they’d be an emergency budget immediately after the result, the economy would nosedive purely on the decision and Cameron made some stupid reference to tombstones across Europe didn’t he?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

[djr8369]

This isn’t spin? Last bit is interesting. Osborne said they’d be an emergency budget immediately after the result, the economy would nosedive purely on the decision and Cameron made some stupid reference to tombstones across Europe didn’t he?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

No none of that is in the leaflet.


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[Grendel]

“We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves, especially in the car industry. There is no sign of this, and UK car manufacturing achieving its 12th successive month of growth in July, with production passing one million units in seven months for the first time in 12 years. Lie number 7.”

This has aged well.




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Well the Brexit issue has had no impact on the motor industry so more scare stories?

 

[Grendel]

No none of that is in the leaflet.


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Off the back of the leaflet were we told an emergency budget would be implemented if the vote was to leave,

 

[djr8369]

Well the Brexit issue has had no impact on the motor industry so more scare stories?

Investment is at its lowest level for years. Output is down. The only major investment is in electric vehicles and that’s on the back of promises of government loans.


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[djr8369]

Off the back of the leaflet were we told an emergency budget would be implemented if the vote was to leave,

So it wasn’t in the leaflet which you called propaganda?


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