The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (82 Viewers)

[djr8369]

We’re now supposed to believe that leave voters believed and voted for “project fear”. Can anyone genuinely deny that this is now a case of mass delusion fed by propaganda?


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Quite a remarkable exchange with Grendel over this. Firstly, he diverted to the government leaflet stating the governments position was it is best to stay in the EU, is propaganda. A diversion suggesting he can’t genuinely deny my point. Not the first time I have pointed out to you Grendel that you have to divert to something the other side did rather than meet the argument head on. If you can’t accept that this shows how weak some of the leave arguments are at least understand you are only undermining your own position when you do this.

Then he states things were in the leaflet which weren’t, even while linking to the leaflet itself, which exposes one of the common arguments on the leave side. In doing so he repeats a piece of actual propaganda and proves my original point true!


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[Astute]

I think you know negotiations took place and changes were made. I think you also know that most of the things we had to compromise on are practical or legal realities with very little room for manoeuvre. If you don’t know that then you’re not as balanced as you like to make out.

What are my usual accusations?


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What negotiations were they? Would you like to let us all know?

 

[Astute]

We can't have had such a strong hand if we were dictated to though. Was May leading negotiations?

We were dictated to because we allowed it to happen. This is why it was all very one sided.

Maybe it was all part of the plan to keep us in.

We will never know.

 

[Astute]

Just need Astute to turn up now with something like “So you’re saying Juncker is perfect? You remain whatever types can’t see both sides of the argument like I can”


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What we need is 100% biased people like yourself to be honest. But that will never happen. You will just keep up with your agenda like a few others will.

 

[Astute]

Quite a remarkable exchange with Grendel over this. Firstly, he diverted to the government leaflet stating the governments position was it is best to stay in the EU, is propaganda. A diversion suggesting he can’t genuinely deny my point. Not the first time I have pointed out to you Grendel that you have to divert to something the other side did rather than meet the argument head on. If you can’t accept that this shows how weak some of the leave arguments are at least understand you are only undermining your own position when you do this.

Then he states things were in the leaflet which weren’t, even while linking to the leaflet itself, which exposes one of the common arguments on the leave side. In doing so he repeats a piece of actual propaganda and proves my original point true!


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All it does is shows a 100% bias from yourself or show that you wouldn't notice the truth if it smashed you in the face.

 

[Grendel]

Investment is at its lowest level for years. Output is down. The only major investment is in electric vehicles and that’s on the back of promises of government loans.


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Which is zero to do with Brexit

 

[Grendel]

Quite a remarkable exchange with Grendel over this. Firstly, he diverted to the government leaflet stating the governments position was it is best to stay in the EU, is propaganda. A diversion suggesting he can’t genuinely deny my point. Not the first time I have pointed out to you Grendel that you have to divert to something the other side did rather than meet the argument head on. If you can’t accept that this shows how weak some of the leave arguments are at least understand you are only undermining your own position when you do this.

Then he states things were in the leaflet which weren’t, even while linking to the leaflet itself, which exposes one of the common arguments on the leave side. In doing so he repeats a piece of actual propaganda and proves my original point true!


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Are you seriously suggesting the leaflet was non Partisan and not full of some significant falsehoods?

The leaflet is pro Eu propaganda - you made a statement on project fear that was utter nonsense. Most who support the Eu do so out of fear. The whole campaign was built on fear of what if and what might be as the campaign could not articulate a positive vision of the Eu

 

[Sick Boy]

We were dictated to because we allowed it to happen. This is why it was all very one sided.

Maybe it was all part of the plan to keep us in.

We will never know.

...or perhaps the talk about the UK having the upper hand was bollocks?

Yeah, I’m sure the likes or David Davis at in on this massive conspiracy too.

 

[Astute]

...or perhaps the talk about the UK having the upper hand was bollocks?

Yeah, I’m sure the likes or David Davis at in on this massive conspiracy too.

We would have had a stronger hand if we would have negotiated. Anything would have been stronger than being dictated to.

A bit like you. House prices being astronomical in the UK is all the fault of the UK government but too high in France.....even though they are much lower than the UK in the most of France because people like myself have moved to France or bought holiday homes.

That one was cool. The fault of the UK government if in the UK but the fault of those from the UK if in another EU country. Yet you will still deny your total bias.

 

[Astute]

Are you seriously suggesting the leaflet was non Partisan and not full of some significant falsehoods?

The leaflet is pro Eu propaganda - you made a statement on project fear that was utter nonsense. Most who support the Eu do so out of fear. The whole campaign was built on fear of what if and what might be as the campaign could not articulate a positive vision of the Eu

I support the EU because it isn't as bad as what you make out.

But I can't bring myself to lie and have an agenda on the subject like others on here do.

 

[djr8369]

All it does is shows a 100% bias from yourself or show that you wouldn't notice the truth if it smashed you in the face.

I can’t explain it any clearer. I’ve gone out of my way to break it down step by step and you’re unable to respond with anything but that.


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[djr8369]

Are you seriously suggesting the leaflet was non Partisan and not full of some significant falsehoods?

The leaflet is pro Eu propaganda - you made a statement on project fear that was utter nonsense. Most who support the Eu do so out of fear. The whole campaign was built on fear of what if and what might be as the campaign could not articulate a positive vision of the Eu

It’s not meant to be non-partisan though is it? It literally takes a position. That doesn’t make it propaganda. By the way - you’re still pursuing this avenue to try and deflect from the original point I made. I know this works for BJ and Farage supporters but I will continue to call you out on it.

What statement did I make on project fear that was nonsense? Project fear now seems to be government policy.

People do not support the EU out of fear -that is nonsense. Plenty of positive arguments were made for EU membership. There’s an argument the remain campaign focussed too strongly on negatives and that’s fine. I’d be inclined to agree with you. Again, nothing to do with my original point though.


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[Astute]

I can’t explain it any clearer. I’ve gone out of my way to break it down step by step and you’re unable to respond with anything but that.


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You have explained nothing. But you have made out that I either don't understand or something similar. And this is the nearest you ever get to answering a question.

 

[djr8369]

Which is zero to do with Brexit

That’s not true at all. It isn’t exclusively because of Brexit but it certainly has something to do with it.


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[Astute]

It’s not meant to be non-partisan though is it? It literally takes a position. That doesn’t make it propaganda. By the way - you’re still pursuing this avenue to try and deflect from the original point I made. I know this works for BJ and Farage supporters but I will continue to call you out on it.

What statement did I make on project fear that was nonsense? Project fear now seems to be government policy.

People do not support the EU out of fear -that is nonsense. Plenty of positive arguments were made for EU membership. There’s an argument the remain campaign focussed too strongly on negatives and that’s fine. I’d be inclined to agree with you. Again, nothing to do with my original point though.


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And here you go again.

So thousands of gravestones, house prices to crash, unemployment to go up by millions and share prices to crash amongst many things didn't make people fear leaving the EU?

So what excuse are you going to use this time?

 

[Astute]

That’s not true at all. It isn’t exclusively because of Brexit but it certainly has something to do with it.


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Something?

Just like JLR being in trouble and it was all the fault of Brexit. It was celebrated on here by the 'remain whatever' posters until it was proven it was all to do with them using diesel engines and what the EU was doing to kill off diesel engines.

But lets forget the truth......

 

[djr8369]

You have explained nothing. But you have made out that I either don't understand or something similar. And this is the nearest you ever get to answering a question.

Your reply was to the post where I explained the flaws in Grendels argument and that what he considered propaganda wasn’t in the leaflet. What have I not explained? What have I not answered?

It’s you who can never engage in anything directly and instead lectures everyone on how you are the only one who sees both sides. I know you mean well and I can see you’re well read on the subject but you seem so desperate to tell people what the flaws are with the EU and it’s leaders that’s you never seem to acknowledge the flaws with Brexit.

As I said the other week, I was neutral on the EU before all this started. I don’t particularly care if we leave the political union if there is a reasonable plan for after and the economy and jobs are protected. But I will call out bullshit from the leavers when I see it. That isn’t bias.


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[djr8369]

And here you go again.

So thousands of gravestones, house prices to crash, unemployment to go up by millions and share prices to crash amongst many things didn't make people fear leaving the EU?

So what excuse are you going to use this time?

I said people don’t support the EU out of fear. You are making a different point, fear of the consequences of leaving, that is not the same thing. I’m sure some did vote out of fear but as we haven’t left yet and those things could come true depending on the financial arrangements after leaving what point do you think you are making? It is perfectly reasonable to fear losing your job or value in your pension do to shares falling and quite right that the relevant authorities should warn people of this.


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[djr8369]

Something?

Just like JLR being in trouble and it was all the fault of Brexit. It was celebrated on here by the 'remain whatever' posters until it was proven it was all to do with them using diesel engines and what the EU was doing to kill off diesel engines.

But lets forget the truth......

Well no it isn’t all to do with Diesel engines. That is one factor. JLR have 27 Brexit scenarios they are spending money on preparing for and it is one of the reasons they have held off on investment until receiving a loan guarantee. They also said that no deal Brexit would cost 1.2 BN in tariffs and make the business “untenable”.

Also, one of the major drives against diesel was a U.K. report into the the negative effects of Nox and particulates, primarily a diesel issue.

Didn’t you previously criticise the EU for being slow to take action after diesel gate?


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[torchomatic]

Formby wasn’t working that was the entire point. And you say she was doing a shit job, but she was having to clear a 2 year back-log from the last general secretary... you don’t see much criticism for him not doing it properly do you.

You say about Labour being ‘taken over’ but what do you expect? Since 2010 the most imaginative that the Labour right could provide was to essentially copy the Tories on immigration (they did a mug and everything), welfare, foreign policy, austerity. There is no imagination, no ideas, no plan of how to offer voters a better future... that’s why Corbyn got in, and that manifesto which was from his part of the party is light years better than anything that Phillips, Watson, Streeting et al could produce. Maybe people will start listening to that part of the party when they produce something of meaning.

We as Labour members and voters could unite behind this manifesto - give me something that has come from the ‘sensible/centrist’ wing that we can get behind.

Labour HAS been taken over and Corbyn has proved he isn't the man to get us back into power, which is what the country needs. He has faced the worst Tory party in living memory yet has still lost EVERY election he has fought in; general, local european.

It's all very well going on about the "most imaginative" manifesto. Didn't make any difference, Labour still lost it. As has been proved since the 2017 election, the manifesto wasn't even costed correctly and was unachievable. Like in one breath saying he would scrap tuition fees and the next fudging his answers.

It's all very well slagging off centrists like those mentioned (and voters like myself) but Labour won't win a general election without us. The more local CLPs try to "purify" the party by ousting those that DARE criticise Corbyn the less chance they have of winning. It would be funny if it wasn't so short sighted and tragic.

Corbyn is a massive issue, not just with many thousands of disaffected ex-Labour members like myself but with the voting public at large. Labour has so many great MPs. including those you mentioned, yet his Front Bench, his creme of the party are people like Richard Burgon, McDonnell, Abbott, Long-Bailey, Gardiner, Butler et al. They're totally useless.

Then there's antisemitism, there's an argument over whether Corbyn himself is an antisemite - personally, I reckon he is - but there is no doubt he has attracted them to the party in their thousands. Holocaust deniers, racists. The people they have recently chosen as their PPC's such as the antisemite who won in Peterborough. Then there's Ali Milani, the candidate chosen to fight in Johnson's seat. who has said in the past Israel has no right to exist and tweeting classic antisemitic tropes about Jews. Surely, in all Labour's membership they can find someone who isn't a racist?

Corbyn will never win an election and he knows it, yet he puts himself before the party and the country, the "Corbyn Project" matters more than anything else. Fighting austerity, poverty, Brexit come second. Jewish members are hounded out, so are MPs who criticise. The party is being sanitised, which is why after 36 years I left and I doubt I will ever be back. You will disagree, fair enough, many do, including my friends, but I will never vote for Labour Whilst Corbyn is leader and not if he passes the mantle on to any of those pathetic bunch I mentioned above. The country deserves more, particularly at a time when the Tories are tearing the country apart with their no deal Brexit timebomb.

 

[Grendel]

That’s not true at all. It isn’t exclusively because of Brexit but it certainly has something to do with it.


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How is it?

 

[Astute]

Your reply was to the post where I explained the flaws in Grendels argument and that what he considered propaganda wasn’t in the leaflet. What have I not explained? What have I not answered?

It’s you who can never engage in anything directly and instead lectures everyone on how you are the only one who sees both sides. I know you mean well and I can see you’re well read on the subject but you seem so desperate to tell people what the flaws are with the EU and it’s leaders that’s you never seem to acknowledge the flaws with Brexit.

As I said the other week, I was neutral on the EU before all this started. I don’t particularly care if we leave the political union if there is a reasonable plan for after and the economy and jobs are protected. But I will call out bullshit from the leavers when I see it. That isn’t bias.


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The whole thing was propaganda.

If it wasn't why were the predictions so wrong from the so called experts that you listen to on how bad Brexit will be for the UK?

And you have never been neutral about the EU. You have constantly made things up in their defence. You have backed up those who make things up or celebrate bad news for the UK.

 

[Grendel]

Well no it isn’t all to do with Diesel engines. That is one factor. JLR have 27 Brexit scenarios they are spending money on preparing for and it is one of the reasons they have held off on investment until receiving a loan guarantee. They also said that no deal Brexit would cost 1.2 BN in tariffs and make the business “untenable”.

Also, one of the major drives against diesel was a U.K. report into the the negative effects of Nox and particulates, primarily a diesel issue.

Didn’t you previously criticise the EU for being slow to take action after diesel gate?


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Were you in JLR meetings when this was discussed?

 

[djr8369]

How is it?

Sorry Grendel I’m not sure what you are asking here.


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[Astute]

Labour HAS been taken over and Corbyn has proved he isn't the man to get us back into power, which is what the country needs. He has faced the worst Tory party in living memory yet has still lost EVERY election he has fought in; general, local european.

It's all very well going on about the "most imaginative" manifesto. Didn't make any difference, Labour still lost it. As has been proved since the 2017 election, the manifesto wasn't even costed correctly and was unachievable. Like in one breath saying he would scrap tuition fees and the next fudging his answers.

It's all very well slagging off centrists like those mentioned (and voters like myself) but Labour won't win a general election without us. The more local CLPs try to "purify" the party by ousting those that DARE criticise Corbyn the less chance they have of winning. It would be funny if it wasn't so short sighted and tragic.

Corbyn is a massive issue, not just with many thousands of disaffected ex-Labour members like myself but with the voting public at large. Labour has so many great MPs. including those you mentioned, yet his Front Bench, his creme of the party are people like Richard Burgon, McDonnell, Abbott, Long-Bailey, Gardiner, Butler et al. They're totally useless.

Then there's antisemitism, there's an argument over whether Corbyn himself is an antisemite - personally, I reckon he is - but there is no doubt he has attracted them to the party in their thousands. Holocaust deniers, racists. The people they have recently chosen as their PPC's such as the antisemite who won in Peterborough. Then there's Ali Milani, the candidate chosen to fight in Johnson's seat. who has said in the past Israel has no right to exist and tweeting classic antisemitic tropes about Jews. Surely, in all Labour's membership they can find someone who isn't a racist?

Corbyn will never win an election and he knows it, yet he puts himself before the party and the country, the "Corbyn Project" matters more than anything else. Fighting austerity, poverty, Brexit come second. Jewish members are hounded out, so are MPs who criticise. The party is being sanitised, which is why after 36 years I left and I doubt I will ever be back. You will disagree, fair enough, many do, including my friends, but I will never vote for Labour Whilst Corbyn is leader and not if he passes the mantle on to any of those pathetic bunch I mentioned above. The country deserves more, particularly at a time when the Tories are tearing the country apart with their no deal Brexit timebomb.

Isn't it amazing how I got ripped to bits by certain people on here for saying exactly the same about Corbyn and his way of leading Labour.

I will now sit back and watch you get exactly the same.

Or do we just see more utter bias?

 

[djr8369]

Were you in JLR meetings when this was discussed?

No. Some of this information is taken from public knowledge (27 scenarios) some of it from internal emails (1.2 BN - although I think this might have been publicly stated but I’m not certain). The emissions specific stuff has also all been in the news but is also the field I work in.


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[Astute]

Sorry Grendel I’m not sure what you are asking here.


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How about explaining what went wrong at JLR?

 

[Astute]

No. Some of this information is taken from public knowledge (27 scenarios) some of it from internal emails (1.2 BN - although I think this might have been publicly stated but I’m not certain). The emissions specific stuff has also all been in the news but is also the field I work in.


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The field you work in?

How about explaining why it was such a small thing then. It is going to be fun watching yoi try and change history. Because it was finally admitted.

 

[torchomatic]

Isn't it amazing how I got ripped to bits by certain people on here for saying exactly the same about Corbyn and his way of leading Labour.

I will now sit back and watch you get exactly the same.

Or do we just see more utter bias?

I have no clue what you're talking about and I don't particularly care. If people like Corbyn they will like him and will just ignore the poison that comes with him. I'm more than happy to say it and I'm more than happy to take the abuse or whatever people throw at me because of it.

Corbyn is a shit leader and he has ruined a once great political party I don't really mind what strangers on a forum think of my personal views.

 

[djr8369]

The whole thing was propaganda.

If it wasn't why were the predictions so wrong from the so called experts that you listen to on how bad Brexit will be for the UK?

And you have never been neutral about the EU. You have constantly made things up in their defence. You have backed up those who make things up or celebrate bad news for the UK.

The conversation was about the leaflet - are you taking about that or the general remain campaign?

What predictions were wrong? A few were wrong or exaggerated but this has been massively blown out of proportion especially seeing as Brexit hasn’t happened yet and most business have not acted on their no deal plans yet. Plenty of predictions have been correct or shown signs of heading that way.

What have I made up in defence of the EU? What bad news have I celebrated?


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[Astute]

I have no clue what you're talking about and I don't particularly care. If people like Corbyn they will like him and will just ignore the poison that comes with him. I'm more than happy to say it and I'm more than happy to take the abuse or whatever people throw at me because of it.

Corbyn is a shit leader and he has ruined a once great political party I don't really mind what strangers on a forum think of my personal views.

As I said I took a lot of shit off certain people on here for saying exactly the same. So I now await them to say it to you. But they won't as they always either agree with you or say nothing at all against your comments.

This is an honest debate?

 

[Astute]

The conversation was about the leaflet - are you taking about that or the general remain campaign?

What predictions were wrong? A few were wrong or exaggerated but this has been massively blown out of proportion especially seeing as Brexit hasn’t happened yet and most business have not acted on their no deal plans yet. Plenty of predictions have been correct or shown signs of heading that way.

What have I made up in defence of the EU? What bad news have I celebrated?


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I blocked you because of the bullshit you kept coming out with. And that wasn't just a few weeks ago. I put your posts back on a couple of months ago and you was still coming out with the same bullshit then.

Hasn't happened? All the things I mentioned were supposed to have happened if there was a leave vote. It wasn't if and when we left.

So do you not have a clue about what you make out you know about or are you just trying to twist the truth?

 

[djr8369]

The field you work in?

How about explaining why it was such a small thing then. It is going to be fun watching yoi try and change history. Because it was finally admitted.

Yes, I work in a field related to automotive emissions.

How what was a small thing? I have never tried to change history, I’ve gone out of my way to engage in the conversations and stated facts.


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[torchomatic]

As I said I took a lot of shit off certain people on here for saying exactly the same. So I now await them to say it to you. But they won't as they always either agree with you or say nothing at all against your comments.

This is an honest debate?

And like said I don't know what or who you're alking about, so dry your tears and take it up with them not me.

 

[Astute]

And like said I don't know what or who you're alking about, so dry your tears and take it up with them not me.

It wasn't aimed at you and you know it. It is aimed at the bullshit on this thread. Abd you also know what was said to me when I said exactly the same.