The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (36 Viewers)

[djr8369]

WCS results are of course useful for reasons I hope I don’t have to spell out

Well you will have to spell it out as I suspect we have our wires crossed.


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[djr8369]

I’m saying that you can’t just make a blind statement based off one point in time to see if things are good or bad.

When I worked just in jaguar and the euro was on its arse we were in massive financial trouble as in the uk for example German retailers were ordering RHD product and selling it back to the uk cheaper then the uk NSC could supply retailers

The rules at the time meant you could not stop it. Northern island would not have a single retailer of any description if every manufacturer did not prop up every sale they made and the EU did nothing to intervene

No of course you can’t but isn’t that exactly what you’re doing? You’ve made two very specific examples where EU membership had drawbacks. My point originally was do you really believe that having not been in the EU would see JLR employing more people right now and with an improved cost base considering the growth the U.K. has seen since joining?


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[Grendel]

Well you will have to spell it out as I suspect we have our wires crossed.


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You’re not stupid I think you can work it out - it always amazes me how a calculation can create a headline result without much scrutiny as to how it was arrived at

 

[Grendel]

No of course you can’t but isn’t that exactly what you’re doing? You’ve made two very specific examples where EU membership had drawbacks. My point originally was do you really believe that having not been in the EU would see JLR employing more people right now and with an improved cost base considering the growth the U.K. has seen since joining?


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Considering none of our growth and certainly EBIT has really anything to do with Europe at all then yes. The company we are discussing has not really made any profit in Europe in comparison to elsewhere and if Europe did not exist ironically the company would be much much stronger as it would have far more chance of competing with its core German competition whose profits have been hugely inflated by currency union, labour and manufacturing benefits

 

[djr8369]

You’re not stupid I think you can work it out - it always amazes me how a calculation can create a headline result without much scrutiny as to how it was arrived at

I can guess at what you’re implying but I’m not sure and part of my query was on the disparity of internal briefings to public announcements which would have different consequences. As I say I think we have our wires crossed.

Anyway, I’m glad we could have a civil discussion, I knew it could be done.


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[djr8369]

Considering none of our growth and certainly EBIT has really anything to do with Europe at all then yes. The company we are discussing has not really made any profit in Europe in comparison to elsewhere and if Europe did not exist ironically the company would be much much stronger as it would have far more chance of competing with its core German competition whose profits have been hugely inflated by currency union, labour and manufacturing benefits

Not impossible but it’s not just about growth of European markets but also the general financial health of the U.K. and access to cheap and quality parts from Europe to make those vehicles to sell in Asia.


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[Grendel]

Not impossible but it’s not just about growth of European markets but also the general financial health of the U.K. and access to cheap and quality parts from Europe to make those vehicles to sell in Asia.


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Again not really as it has given German competitors advantages so they can afford to build in many of these markets a JV programme in them ASEAN as an example which means tariffs are absurdly low compared to ours

 

[djr8369]

Again not really as it has given German competitors advantages so they can afford to build in many of these markets a JV programme in them ASEAN as an example which means tariffs are absurdly low compared to ours

This might be the only genuine pro Brexit argument I’ve seen on this thread that can’t be dismissed in two sentences. Thanks.


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[djr8369]

Again not really as it has given German competitors advantages so they can afford to build in many of these markets a JV programme in them ASEAN as an example which means tariffs are absurdly low compared to ours

Although I don’t follow how those advantages relate to tariffs, are you talking tariffs on parts into Asia or what?


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[Grendel]

Although I don’t follow how those advantages relate to tariffs, are you talking tariffs on parts into Asia or what?


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I’m talking about overall duty on vehicle sales. German brands have made huge profits for decades due to the advantage they have on currency, so they can invest in manufacturing “facilities” so the vehicle and spare part prices offer absurd advantages to them.

German manufacturing dominates its European competitors as its in the euro. It actually shows how a weak currency is a huge advantage to car companies

 

[martcov]

Considering none of our growth and certainly EBIT has really anything to do with Europe at all then yes. The company we are discussing has not really made any profit in Europe in comparison to elsewhere and if Europe did not exist ironically the company would be much much stronger as it would have far more chance of competing with its core German competition whose profits have been hugely inflated by currency union, labour and manufacturing benefits

We opted out of currency union. Labour benefits? Why didn’t we have the same benefits? What manufacturing benefits does Germany have that we cannot have as members of the same Union?

 

[martcov]

I’m talking about overall duty on vehicle sales. German brands have made huge profits for decades due to the advantage they have on currency, so they can invest in manufacturing “facilities” so the vehicle and spare part prices offer absurd advantages to them.

German manufacturing dominates its European competitors as its in the euro. It actually shows how a weak currency is a huge advantage to car companies

But, the argument against, say Italy, being in the EU is that the Euro is too strong. Is the Euro too weak or too strong, or does it depend on which industry you are talking about?

 

[Grendel]

We opted out of currency union. Labour benefits? Why didn’t we have the same benefits? What manufacturing benefits does Germany have that we cannot have as members of the same Union?

Here we go

 

[Grendel]

But, the argument against, say Italy, being in the EU is that the Euro is too strong. Is the Euro too weak or too strong, or does it depend on which industry you are talking about?

No it depends on which country you are talking about

 

[martcov]

Here we go

Just answer the question whilst you are in a lucid moment.

 

[Grendel]

What manufacturing benefits does Germany have that we cannot have as members of the same Union?

I’m sorry how can anyone take you seriously with a comment like that

 

[djr8369]

I’m talking about overall duty on vehicle sales. German brands have made huge profits for decades due to the advantage they have on currency, so they can invest in manufacturing “facilities” so the vehicle and spare part prices offer absurd advantages to them.

German manufacturing dominates its European competitors as its in the euro. It actually shows how a weak currency is a huge advantage to car companies

Yeah I got that but it was your mention of ASEAN and affect on tariffs that lost me but reading back I think you meant ability to invest in parts manufacturing there.


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[Grendel]

Just answer the question whilst you are in a lucid moment.

I suspect the person I addressed it to understands it and it’s clearly beyond your pay grade

 

[Grendel]

Yeah I got that but it was your mention of ASEAN and affect on tariffs that lost me but reading back I think you meant ability to invest in parts manufacturing there.


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On a limited scale which provides unlimited advantages - Taiwan (?) i think best of all shows the huge disparity

 

[martcov]

I suspect the person I addressed it to understands it and it’s clearly beyond your pay grade

It could well be, but that doesn’t stop you from addressing the question in simpler terms for those of us not blessed with your insight and intelligence.

 

[Grendel]

It could well be, but that doesn’t stop you from addressing the question in simpler terms for those of us not blessed with your insight and intelligence.

It’s easy as ABC work it out for yourself

 

[martcov]

It’s easy as ABC work it out for yourself

Yeah great. You couldn’t or wouldn’t answer the question. I’m too busy to pursue this. Which is a pity as it is not often that you are as lucid as this.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah great. You couldn’t or wouldn’t answer the question. I’m too busy to pursue this. Which is a pity as it is not often that you are as lucid as this.

I’ve answered it to the other guy and I can’t be bothered to explain using crayons to you. As for lucid do me a favour it’s you whose spent weeks on here bragging about young girls, shagging 40 year olds behind the brewery and other random shit. I’m surprised you’ve got the nerve

 

[martcov]

I’ve answered it to the other guy and I can’t be bothered to explain using crayons to you. As for lucid do me a favour it’s you whose spent weeks on here bragging about young girls, shagging 40 year olds behind the brewery and other random shit. I’m surprised you’ve got the nerve

No. I only compared the relative satisfaction of shagging to trolling. I prefer shagging. As for young women. Yes I can see some of them as attractive. Apart from that, you are deflecting.

 

[Grendel]

No. I only compared the relative satisfaction of shagging to trolling. I prefer shagging. As for young women. Yes I can see some of them as attractive. Apart from that, you are deflecting.

But I’m the one whose not normally lucid. Ok

 

[martcov]

But I’m the one whose not normally lucid. Ok

Yes.

 

[Grendel]

Yes.

Is it time for your meds again?

 

[martcov]

Is it time for your meds again?

I don’t need them, but I was pleasantly surprised that you were having a civil discussion. Tried to get some answers, but obviously your meds wore off, and here we are, back to normal. Your mate is surprisingly quiet. Let’s see what happens after 23:00.

 

[Ian1779]

Labour HAS been taken over and Corbyn has proved he isn't the man to get us back into power, which is what the country needs. He has faced the worst Tory party in living memory yet has still lost EVERY election he has fought in; general, local european.

It's all very well going on about the "most imaginative" manifesto. Didn't make any difference, Labour still lost it. As has been proved since the 2017 election, the manifesto wasn't even costed correctly and was unachievable. Like in one breath saying he would scrap tuition fees and the next fudging his answers.

It's all very well slagging off centrists like those mentioned (and voters like myself) but Labour won't win a general election without us. The more local CLPs try to "purify" the party by ousting those that DARE criticise Corbyn the less chance they have of winning. It would be funny if it wasn't so short sighted and tragic.

Corbyn is a massive issue, not just with many thousands of disaffected ex-Labour members like myself but with the voting public at large. Labour has so many great MPs. including those you mentioned, yet his Front Bench, his creme of the party are people like Richard Burgon, McDonnell, Abbott, Long-Bailey, Gardiner, Butler et al. They're totally useless.

Then there's antisemitism, there's an argument over whether Corbyn himself is an antisemite - personally, I reckon he is - but there is no doubt he has attracted them to the party in their thousands. Holocaust deniers, racists. The people they have recently chosen as their PPC's such as the antisemite who won in Peterborough. Then there's Ali Milani, the candidate chosen to fight in Johnson's seat. who has said in the past Israel has no right to exist and tweeting classic antisemitic tropes about Jews. Surely, in all Labour's membership they can find someone who isn't a racist?

Corbyn will never win an election and he knows it, yet he puts himself before the party and the country, the "Corbyn Project" matters more than anything else. Fighting austerity, poverty, Brexit come second. Jewish members are hounded out, so are MPs who criticise. The party is being sanitised, which is why after 36 years I left and I doubt I will ever be back. You will disagree, fair enough, many do, including my friends, but I will never vote for Labour Whilst Corbyn is leader and not if he passes the mantle on to any of those pathetic bunch I mentioned above. The country deserves more, particularly at a time when the Tories are tearing the country apart with their no deal Brexit timebomb.

Corbyn is not an anti-semite. There is simply no evidence to justify such a statement. Criticise him all you like for other things.

Fighting austerity is the number 1 priority, and certainly should be within a politically left socialist party. So tell me why the ‘fantastic’ MP’s have nothing to say on the matter? I didn’t see the right wing Labour MP’s push on declaring a climate emergency in parliament, or bring to the table new Green policies that have been recently announced. If you get your way and Corbyn is repacled with a centrist - we will be annihilated at the next election and it will make Corbyn’s ‘failure’ in 2017 look like halcyon days.

We clearly are from different standpoints - that’s entirely fine, and you certainly won’t get any abuse from me... not all ‘Corbynites’ are like that.

 

[torchomatic]

Corbyn is not an anti-semite. There is simply no evidence to justify such a statement. Criticise him all you like for other things.

Fighting austerity is the number 1 priority, and certainly should be within a politically left socialist party. So tell me why the ‘fantastic’ MP’s have nothing to say on the matter? I didn’t see the right wing Labour MP’s push on declaring a climate emergency in parliament, or bring to the table new Green policies that have been recently announced. If you get your way and Corbyn is repacled with a centrist - we will be annihilated at the next election and it will make Corbyn’s ‘failure’ in 2017 look like halcyon days.

We clearly are from different standpoints - that’s entirely fine, and you certainly won’t get any abuse from me... not all ‘Corbynites’ are like that.

Yes, different standpoint. Shame the Labour party has sunk to this.

Centrists won't be in charge anytime soon, so Corbyn will fight and lose the next election against an appalling Tory party. He currently has the lowest opposition poll rating in history. As I said Corbyn needs people like me to vote for him, but it will never happen.

Johnson will call an election and wipe the floor with Corbyn, which is so frustrating.

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Investment is at its lowest level for years. Output is down. The only major investment is in electric vehicles and that’s on the back of promises of government loans.


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In fairness...I would question if that is down to pure uncertainty of Brexit rather than Brexit itself

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[SkyblueBazza]

I support the EU because it isn't as bad as what you make out.

But I can't bring myself to lie and have an agenda on the subject like others on here do.

Which is kinda my stance.

I voted remain. However, I think that we would be battered into submission behind the scenes by the EU if we now ignored the referendum result.

So along with the preserving of my interpretation of the democratic process we are actually in at least as good a position out than in in the longer term.

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[SkyblueBazza]

There are hardly any hardcore Corbyn supporters on this thread.

But how many people would still happily vote Labour despite Corbyn? Ignoring the fact that voting Labour actually strengthens Corbyn's leadership?

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[Ian1779]

Which is kinda my stance.

I voted remain. However, I think that we would be battered into submission behind the scenes by the EU if we now ignored the referendum result.

So along with the preserving of my interpretation of the democratic process we are actually in at least as good a position out than in in the longer term.

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I’m actually really disappointed as a remain voter that it has not taken the opportunity to talk about reforming our existing relationship with the EU if we remain, or about the concerns that leave voters have about the EU as an organisation.It’s like they have learnt nothing over the last 3 years, and this hard remain position is equally as mental as a no deal Brexit IMO. You dismiss all leave voters as racists or ignorant idiots that voted on the basis of a lie.

 

[Sick Boy]

But how many people would still happily vote Labour despite Corbyn? Ignoring the fact that voting Labour actually strengthens Corbyn's leadership?

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It doesn’t really have anything to do with the particular point though, does it?