The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (68 Viewers)

[Grendel]

I am and for the record, a constitutional elected head of state would have the same power. Come on G, she either has a meaningful role or she doesn't and if the former is true, let's elect one instead and if the latter is true, get rid

Just mind blowing - she can just turn round and quote the parliament act which bid the way constitutionally to stop it otherwise you are accepting a monarch can decide on any piece of legislation and unilaterally reject it

What you actually need to ask yourself is why the opposition are not trying to bring Johnson down and form a government with Corbyn at the helm rather than some dodgy back door coup which I doubt would actually mean anything anyway

 

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[shmmeee]

It would be interesting if she actually refused to see how the extremists reacted to it.

They’d turn on her. It’s been a cult for quite some time, literally nothing else matters and all strongly held beliefs fall at its altar.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Of course not - she cannot intervene on government advice

There is no legal basis for obstructing her decision.

 

[djr8369]

What you actually need to ask yourself is why the opposition are not trying to bring Johnson down and form a government with Corbyn at the helm rather than some dodgy back door coup which I doubt would actually mean anything anyway

Because that would also be painted as a coup, in fact it already has been, by certain sections of the press.



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[Grendel]

Johnson will have 14 days from the vote to try and overturn it. If he fails to do that I’m not sure he’ll even have a say in when the next general election will be as he’ll no longer be PM so I’m not sure how he’ll be able to delay it until November. I think you’re possibly wrong. Again.

No Tony the parties all have in those 14 days an opportunity to form a government - failure to do results in the sitting PM deciding an election date

I wasn’t wrong the first time either as an election timed at a date post October will not ever get a 66% majority as this ends the issue

Jeremy Corbyn can form a government and stop this if there is enough will

 

[torchomatic]

Johnson wants a VONC. He wants an election run on “these bastards are stopping Brexit”

Oh yes, he and the rest of the Brexiteers always blame everyone else apart from themselves.

 

[Grendel]

Because that would also be painted as a coup, in fact it already has been, by certain sections of the press.



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It wouldn’t as it’s a democratic process - motion of no confidence agreed and the majority of MPs agree in 14 days Corbyn can form a working majority in parliament

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Just mind blowing - she can just turn round and quote the parliament act which bid the way constitutionally to stop it otherwise you are accepting a monarch can decide on any piece of legislation and unilaterally reject it

What you actually need to ask yourself is why the opposition are not trying to bring Johnson down and form a government with Corbyn at the helm rather than some dodgy back door coup which I doubt would actually mean anything anyway

All legislation requires royal assent. Proroguing of Parliament must have royal assent also. If you're saying that the monarch should never go against these acts even if they are clearly to the country's detriment then really, there is no point having the monarch there. But if you're arguing that the Queen does have meaningful powers, why are we deciding this by birth? There aren't enough MPs supportive of a Corbyn government in the Commons to make it work. Another election might produce that but with Johnson suspending Parliament there's no physical way of achieving the no confidence vote.

Honestly G, for such a pompous prick you get so much wrong

 

[Grendel]

All legislation requires royal assent. Proroguing of Parliament must have royal assent also. If you're saying that the monarch should never go against these acts even if they are clearly to the country's detriment then really, there is no point having the monarch there. But if you're arguing that the Queen does have meaningful powers, why are we deciding this by birth? There aren't enough MPs supportive of a Corbyn government in the Commons to make it work. Another election might produce that but with Johnson suspending Parliament there's no physical way of achieving the no confidence vote.

Honestly G, for such a pompous prick you get so much wrong

I’m not getting anything wrong. The constitutional experts have been saying this for weeks - the parliament sits for a whole week before suspension. Explain to me why in that time a no confidence motion cannot be made?

We all know why - Corbyn has zero mandate to deliver a government so he’s given up on an election idea and is trying a route which is equally as constitutionaly dangerous as suspension

I’ve said nothing wrong and seriously if you spouted what you are saying on any phone in regarding this issue you’d be laughed at

 

[djr8369]

It wouldn’t as it’s a democratic process - motion of no confidence agreed and the majority of MPs agree in 14 days Corbyn can form a working majority in parliament

You think that will matter?


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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m not getting anything wrong. The constitutional experts have been saying this for weeks - the parliament sits for a whole week before suspension. Explain to me why in that time a no confidence motion cannot be made?

We all know why - Corbyn has zero mandate to deliver a government so he’s given up on an election idea and is trying a route which is equally as constitutionaly dangerous as suspension

I’ve said nothing wrong and seriously if you spouted what you are saying on any phone in regarding this issue you’d be laughed at

You've claimed that the only way to get an early election is by a no confidence vote-wrong

You've claimed that the Queen can't deny Johnson's request-wrong

You've claimed that Corbyn needs to form an alternative government from the existing MPs-we all know he couldn't

You've claimed that a week is enough time to debate and vote on the Queen's speech and debate and vote on no confidence, along with any other legislation the Tories want to ram through in that time.

You never admit when you're wrong even when it's objective and right in front of you. You still probably can't admit how wrong your prediction was in 2017

 

[Grendel]

You think that will matter?


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Well technically the government could still refuse to stand down and then call an election as the legislation apparently is highly flaky and dissolve parliament for a November election

I don’t see that likely though as public opinion may become more hostile

What of course the opposition could do rather than seek further unpopular delays I’d suggest the government bring back the original withdrawal agreement and all agree to support it

 

[Grendel]

You've claimed that the only way to get an early election is by a no confidence vote-wrong

You've claimed that the Queen can't deny Johnson's request-wrong

You've claimed that Corbyn needs to form an alternative government from the existing MPs-we all know he couldn't

You've claimed that a week is enough time to debate and vote on the Queen's speech and debate and vote on no confidence, along with any other legislation the Tories want to ram through in that time.

You never admit when you're wrong even when it's objective and right in front of you. You still probably can't admit how wrong your prediction was in 2017

Sigh - I’m not wrong on point one - the election would be post Brexit which is why it’s avoided - the clue is the word early - show me please in the parliament act where a date has to be 5 weeks - not even withstanding the basic point you are expected the elected government to help a rag tag bunch of opponents who couldn’t even agree on what to have for lunch

Your lack of knowledge on a constitutional monarch is embarrassing - on that you are an hysterical sixth former - it’s not happening - it can’t happen.

A no confidence motion can easily meet the time frame. It’s being avoided as they know they cannot form a government

 

[Ian1779]

Corbyn’s route of VONC and temp government is actually the ONLY route to stop a no-deal Brexit if Boris wants to pursue it - in this parliament at least.

So it come down to those who say he can’t command a majority - what do you want more?

 

[djr8369]

What of course the opposition could do rather than seek further unpopular delays I’d suggest the government bring back the original withdrawal agreement and all agree to support it

Could be a good move but can only see it happening under a caretaker government, but then too many would prefer 2nd ref.

For what it’s worth although, as leader of the opposition, Corbyn has the best claim to head up a caretaker government it’s too political sensitive to have him at the helm as he’s seen as too left wing. The right wing press would have a melt down. It would be more sensible to put a moderate Tory in charge.

This is partly why I think there’s no way out of no deal. Whatever happens to try and prevent it the right wing press will scream “coup” and the public will buy it. Combating populism is difficult.




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[Grendel]

Corbyn’s route of VONC and temp government is actually the ONLY route to stop a no-deal Brexit if Boris wants to pursue it - in this parliament at least.

So it come down to those who say he can’t command a majority - what do you want more?

At last a voice of reason above the hysterical chattering

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sigh - I’m not wrong on point one - the election would be post Brexit which is why it’s avoided - the clue is the word early - show me please in the parliament act where a date has to be 5 weeks - not even withstanding the basic point you are expected the elected government to help a rag tag bunch of opponents who couldn’t even agree on what to have for lunch

Your lack of knowledge on a constitutional monarch is embarrassing - on that you are an hysterical sixth former - it’s not happening - it can’t happen.

A no confidence motion can easily meet the time frame. It’s being avoided as they know they cannot form a government

Show me the legal basis for denying the monarch's ability to block Johnson's move. There isn't one.

The only actual resolution for this is another referendum-Johnson's insanity versus remain, and have it legally binding. If you and your Johnson fan boys vote in enough numbers it will still happen

 

[djr8369]

I see commentators think the plan is to tighten the deadline while creating a new parliamentary session so the WA can be voted on again. Remarkable considering that they’ve put so much effort into trashing the WA and talking up no deal.


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[Grendel]

Show me the legal basis for denying the monarch's ability to block Johnson's move. There isn't one.

The only actual resolution for this is another referendum-Johnson's insanity versus remain, and have it legally binding. If you and your Johnson fan boys vote in enough numbers it will still happen

Again it’s just immature. There has not been a rejection since 1708 - the purpose of a constitutional monarch is to be above politics. The minute that line is crossed would create a far bigger constitutional crises than a weeks suspension - the point of parliament is to have processes to deal with this which it has

Johnson is the prime minister. The real truth is there are not even enough Corbyn fan boys in his own party to support him and that’s the issue isn’t it? A no confidence motion can be delivered on day one - that’s the end of parliament suspension - it’s hilarious that republicans are urging the queen to act as a legislative head of state as they can’t even command enough people to stop Johnson through parliament. Perhaps we should just absolve it and go back to a monarchy ruling the country - dintiu want UK bring back Henry Viii?

 

[Grendel]

I see commentators think the plan is to tighten the deadline while creating a new parliamentary session so the WA can be voted on again. Remarkable considering that they’ve put so much effort into trashing the WA and talking up no deal.


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Well I never - what a surprise

 

[djr8369]

Again it’s just immature. There has not been a rejection since 1708 - the purpose of a constitutional monarch is to be above politics. The minute that line is crossed would create a far bigger constitutional crises than a weeks suspension - the point of parliament is to have processes to deal with this which it has

Johnson is the prime minister. The real truth is there are not even enough Corbyn fan boys in his own party to support him and that’s the issue isn’t it? A no confidence motion can be delivered on day one - that’s the end of parliament suspension - it’s hilarious that republicans are urging the queen to act as a legislative head of state as they can’t even command enough people to stop Johnson through parliament. Perhaps we should just absolve it and go back to a monarchy ruling the country - dintiu want UK bring back Henry Viii?

Great attempt at spin.


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[djr8369]

Well I never - what a surprise

Can’t see it. They’ve nailed their colours to the mast of no deal.


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[Ian1779]

Could be a good move but can only see it happening under a caretaker government, but then too many would prefer 2nd ref.

For what it’s worth although, as leader of the opposition, Corbyn has the best claim to head up a caretaker government it’s too political sensitive to have him at the helm as he’s seen as too left wing. The right wing press would have a melt down. It would be more sensible to put a moderate Tory in charge.

This is partly why I think there’s no way out of no deal. Whatever happens to try and prevent it the right wing press will scream “coup” and the public will buy it. Combating populism is difficult.




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If people want No-Deal stopped they have to back Corbyn. There is no other route. This will at least expose real motives.

 

[skybluetony176]

No Tony the parties all have in those 14 days an opportunity to form a government - failure to do results in the sitting PM deciding an election date

I wasn’t wrong the first time either as an election timed at a date post October will not ever get a 66% majority as this ends the issue

Jeremy Corbyn can form a government and stop this if there is enough will

You’re still wrong. If no body can form a government within those 14 days a general election is called and parliament is dissolved with an election being held 25 days later. I’m yet to see a set of circumstances where Boris gets to name the date, especially after a vote of no confidence.

 

[skybluetony176]

Johnson wants a VONC. He wants an election run on “these bastards are stopping Brexit”

You may well have hit the nail on the head there. Time will tell.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again it’s just immature. There has not been a rejection since 1708 - the purpose of a constitutional monarch is to be above politics. The minute that line is crossed would create a far bigger constitutional crises than a weeks suspension - the point of parliament is to have processes to deal with this which it has

Johnson is the prime minister. The real truth is there are not even enough Corbyn fan boys in his own party to support him and that’s the issue isn’t it? A no confidence motion can be delivered on day one - that’s the end of parliament suspension - it’s hilarious that republicans are urging the queen to act as a legislative head of state as they can’t even command enough people to stop Johnson through parliament. Perhaps we should just absolve it and go back to a monarchy ruling the country - dintiu want UK bring back Henry Viii?

Everything is unprecedented until it happens and of course, this discussion is overlooking that Johnson is supplanting the 'democracy' he claims to care about. You keep parroting 'the monarch must be above politics' but then you're really arguing that there isn't any practical need for a monarch in the first place. If all they are to do is say 'yes' to illegal invasions of Iraq and blatant abuses of power then really what is their purpose?

It's clear for all to see that a no deal Brexit will leave the country worse off and that your hero is putting everything to one side to force it through. The smug arrogance stinks from miles away

 

[djr8369]

Johnson wants a VONC. He wants an election run on “these bastards are stopping Brexit”

Much more likely to be the plan than the idea they want to force the WA through.

It’s Cummings trying to repeat the referendum.


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[Grendel]

You’re still wrong. If no body can form a government within those 14 days a general election is called and parliament is dissolved with an election being held 25 days later. I’m yet to see a set of circumstances where Boris gets to name the date, especially after a vote of no confidence.

“The prime minister controls the timetable” and this article purely focuses on the normal protocol prior to the Parliament Act. There are several commentators who actually say the act was hastily put together and the government can delay further due to a constitutional loophole in the wording

Even if the prior legislature is accepted as fact there is zero doubt that the prime minister can organise an election in November

The fact this has been abandoned as a plan by the usual suspects tells you something

Is it too late to hold an election before Brexit?

 

[Grendel]

Everything is unprecedented until it happens and of course, this discussion is overlooking that Johnson is supplanting the 'democracy' he claims to care about. You keep parroting 'the monarch must be above politics' but then you're really arguing that there isn't any practical need for a monarch in the first place. If all they are to do is say 'yes' to illegal invasions of Iraq and blatant abuses of power then really what is their purpose?

It's clear for all to see that a no deal Brexit will leave the country worse off and that your hero is putting everything to one side to force it through. The smug arrogance stinks from miles away

Their purpose is to preserve our democracy and prevent a presidential system of government

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Their purpose is to preserve our democracy and prevent a presidential system of government

Democracy preserved by having an unelected head of state and an unelected upper house-got it

 

[skybluetony176]

There’s another possibility. Defections and resignations from the Tory party. How many Tory MP’s need to do either to trigger an election?

 

[Grendel]

Democracy preserved by having an unelected head of state and an unelected upper house-got it

The elected representatives are in parliament and 83% of the public voted for parties committed to delivering an exit from the European Union

 

[Grendel]

There’s another possibility. Defections and resignations from the Tory party. How many Tory MP’s need to do either to trigger an election?

A by election?

 

[Grendel]

If people want No-Deal stopped they have to back Corbyn. There is no other route. This will at least expose real motives.

Why are Tony, Brighton and co avoiding this simple basic fact?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The elected representatives are in parliament and 83% of the public voted for parties committed to delivering an exit from the European Union

The elected representatives don't hold executive power which is in the hands of an unelected old woman and superseded by a building overflowing with unelected peers. It's amazing how you perform these mental gymnastics to justify the Prime Minister acting in this way