Grendel
Well-Known Member
Yes I was in it
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Yes I was in it
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
The point made was that students are short termist idiots who will vote for whoever offers them the most. That party was the Greens. But the vast majoirty of students didn't vote for them.
Or are we now saying that they had the nous to vote tactically for a party that had more of a chance of winning but still offered them a decent package? But then even if they did do that, surely Greens would've come second, because they offered a good deal. Instead both the Tories and Lib Dems got more than them, despite offering nothing.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
UK to allow foreign students to stay for two years after graduation to find work - Reuters
Let's take back control of those borders eh? By allowing foreign students to stay longer looking for jobs.
I'm amazed the EU even lets them have the choice of how long they stay to be honest. After all they control everything we do.
Let's take back control of those borders eh? By allowing foreign students to stay longer looking for jobs.
I'm amazed the EU even lets them have the choice of how long they stay to be honest. After all they control everything we do.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It’s enhancing his people versus the establishment status
No I’m saying what I said. For once will you read a fucking message and reply to it or acknowledge it rather than deflecting to something else.
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Otis
Well-Known Member
Depends which people you are doesn't it?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Even students are not that stupid - they will lot mostly waste the vote - was he real point is that swings towards parties that offer short term gain is massively higher in that sector. The 2010 election proved it beyond question
They will of course go on marches and wear silly green badges but in the end when they see the benefits of capitalism by definition when they are older and have responsibilities most vote Tory don’t they?
The reality is they are easily manipulated and at the same time lazy on independent thought. One of my daughters was laughed at buy her classmates when she pointed out that socialists generally want to leave the Eu as it’s a federalist movement and the antithesis of socialism. Not one believed her assertion that Corbyn was a passionate leaver and more worryingly not one wanted to check she was correct
The one thing that does slightly encourage me is the majority of the adult public are not as pliable and stupid
Jeremy Vine does a show on channel 5. There is a line audience which never ever is hostile to the panel. Today a labour MP was on and mocked, jeered and ultimately booed off after half an hour. Several of the audience admitted to always voting labour but will now turn their backs on them. She actually once said labour were the only grown up party seeking an adult solution. I hope these sense of delusion is genuine.
At some point there will be an election. As Alan Johnson once said Corbyn hasn’t been able to change his mind on anything since he left school. I have a strange suspicion Mr Corbyn is really the duplicitous one (along with the social nationalist in Scotland) and won’t be too dismayed if we crash on October 31
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
If the people are disaster capitalists.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So am I right or wrong for saying so?
Astute
Well-Known Member
No deflection from me. Just pointing out some of the contradictions being made.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
That's not at all tarring everyone with the same brush is it.
Or massively contradictory. Apparently lazy on independent thought yet not lazy enough to realise they have to vote for whoever has a greater chance of winning. The proportion of students voting Lib Dem has been higher than most groups long before 2010. You could argue the LD put the fees thing in BECAUSE they had success with students already and it would give them an even great pull, not that students went LD because of the fees.
I'm not saying there aren't any students who voted that way because of the scrapping tuition fees - of course there will be. But to suggest that it's all they were bothered about is just nonsense. I'm also not saying that there aren't some very gullible and stupid students (a girl I was at school with got her first student loan payment through and spent the entire thing in one afternoon on clothes). But largely they're the exception rather than the norm. Virtually all of my friends worked through uni. They were careful with their money because they didn't have much of it and were saving where possible because they were thinking of the future and at some point needing a deposit for a house.
Is it they see the benefits of capitalism when they're older, or just that they've become part of the machinery with families to provide for and protect and to do that requires money because that's the way the system is. So they put their beliefs to one side because they have to.
Isn't the big problem entrenched voting " we vote Conservative/Labour because we've always done it"? Just walk in, cross the box they've always crossed and leave again. Job done. Not looked at manifestos or listened to speeches, just done what they've always done. The elderly are especially prone to this (though again I'm not saying they all are). This is the very definition of not pliable, but it is stupid.
Isn't is better to be pliable - open to new thoughts and ideas rather than just dismiss or accept them depending on whoever said them. There was a lot of Tory policy in the last manifesto that was rehashed Labour policy from before. Suddenly what had been stupid ideas a few years before was now well-thought out. Similarly under Blair when New Labour was Tory-lite a number of Conservative style policies that had been unpalatable before suddenly became the bright new way forward.
On the other hand, if they're not pliable why do parties bother pandering to other adult groups, like parents or the retired. When my friends starting having children what the parties said about childcare and benefits mattered to them - hadn't before. Sensible adults in their late 20's/early 30's being swayed by policies that were a direct benefit to them. When the idea was mooted of closing DB pensions I know people in their 40's who very much took that into account and the same people when approaching retirement took note of the proposed pension changes regarding annuities etc. Pensioners will be heavily swayed by what is said about the state pension and things they get like bus passes/prescriptions and TV licences.
I think you're right in that Corbyn hasn't ever changed his mind on things, or even contemplated aspects of the right that are useful. But I doubt the likes of JRM, Alexander or Cameron have changed their personal opinion on anything since school either (Alexander has of course publicly changed his opinion but that's for his own personal ambitions not because his actual beliefs have changed. There are tapes of JRM as a student that could just easily be him now. Not once would he appear to have even contemplated that there might be aspects of the left that can be advantageous.
And talking of that, you keep on going about capability of independent thought, yet your views on here are pretty much directly out of the capitalist handbook word-for-word. Just swallowed and regurgitated. You mentioned your daughter - did she get that view because she carefully looked at every facet of the political divide or is it's what she was brought up to believe by you? It sounds very familiar to something you'd say.
I studied business, accounts and economics for four years at uni. I worked in accounting for ten years. I got fed far more on the benefits of capitalism than most would. I am part of the 'Thatcher's children' generation. Yet I decided to look beyond that and saw the gaping holes in the thinking. I'm no socialist (I think it's a race to the bottom) or communist (it's purely a means for those that want to be the elite but aren't to become it) either but capitalism is just as flawed as either of them.
I would also point out that there is a correlation between education and political standing. The more educated you are the more likely you are to vote to vote towards the left. Amazing how these incredibly intelligent and learned people are so gullible and stupid.
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Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Wrong. Greens offered them the most. They were not the party students voted for the most (in fact it was only a small minority) and two parties who didn't offer them anything polled higher numbers.
As I said the vast majority of students are looking beyond their student days and about job opportunities, housing etc for when they settle down and start families. On the whole they're not the feckless idiots you make them out to be.
I also note you've not followed up on the maths thing....
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
So the prime minister broke the law. Is he to be arrested ?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s outrageous
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
This is something I find both fascinating and depressing.
When you look at any polling or other research and compare voting intention against which policies people favour the results are all over the place. Makes it very clear that a huge number of people don't really look into what they are voting on and just stick the tick in the same box they always do, or the one the media has influenced them to with soundbites that don't relate to actual policy.
Yeah there’s a huge disparity between the average voter, the media and how people actually vote.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
She may as well said yeah it’s going to be a shit fest.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Strong and stable
Strong and stable
Strong and stable
What a crock of shit
Strong and stable
Strong and stable
What a crock of shit
Astute
Well-Known Member
Maths thing? Are you questioning my working out?
Otis
Well-Known Member
Maybe he's just saying you are not a part of the equation.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
No, I questioned your assumption that every single student voted Labour, which they don't and thus made your workings out pointless. I corrected the assumption and redid the sums.
Astute
Well-Known Member
It was unlawful but not illegal. Sounds the same but very different.
Then you have the problem of trying to prove that he knew it was unlawful. Because it has taken two court cases so far to decide that it is unlawful. The first judge said it wasn't.
Then you have another problem of the same occurrences happening most years. Which ones are lawful and which are unlawful? And will this decision stand after the next appeal?
Yet another bucket of worms has been uncovered.
Very interesting post and a lot of it I agree with. One point I don’t fully accept is regarding education and political standing. People from all walks of life vote in various ways for different reasons. For example some educated and potentially wealthy can vote left as they genuinely believe in the greater good and helping all. Others may do so knowing that whatever policies are implemented will have little or no impact on their lives and families as they have wealth tied up/secured (or maybe if for example, they live alone, some of the policies that would worry some are just not as important to them).
You see it all the time, even with prominent left leaning individuals who happily send their kids to private school but oppose grammars and academy’s (even though at least some grammar and academy schools help children in deprived areas where their local inner city comp is never going to give them a better chance in life). I went to a comp by the way ! Those that talk about only the benefits of immigration when they are not on low wages being suppressed or struggling to get on the housing ladder (as per earlier posts). I appreciate these aren't the only reasons/causes for these issues but I’m making a point that it’s also easier sometimes for people to accept policies that don’t directly impact them.
I wholeheartedly agree that people should look at the bigger picture and ideally listen to as many differing views as possibly to form their own. I’ve listened to james O’Brien and majid nawaz on LBC as much, if not more than the Ian Dales and Tom Swarbricks, even if they might frustrate me ! I try to read articles on both the Guardian and Mail online...even though both can annoy me (so take both with a political pinch of salt !). The comment about the Mail earlier in the thread is also outdated. There was a change in editor end of last year/early this, so a lot of their more ‘further right’ stance has softened.
However, unfortunately people will always have their thoughts, biases and prejudices, we all do !....as Fernandos ‘Tory turds’ comment indicated....I did laugh to be fair though !
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
The better educated debate is erroneous
There is a huge disparity as young inexperienced people are seduced by socialism at university and as they go through into working life migrate to moderate politics
There are far more people with a university education now than 20 years ago so this will be the case until it reaches a plateau
It’s also debatable
Though a bad example politically given old pot head has never grown up (as he can afford not to) technically speaking a 21 year old with a third in Native American studies at Cumbria university is better educated than the owner of the Virgin Empire. What does that actually prove?
There is a huge disparity as young inexperienced people are seduced by socialism at university and as they go through into working life migrate to moderate politics
There are far more people with a university education now than 20 years ago so this will be the case until it reaches a plateau
It’s also debatable
Though a bad example politically given old pot head has never grown up (as he can afford not to) technically speaking a 21 year old with a third in Native American studies at Cumbria university is better educated than the owner of the Virgin Empire. What does that actually prove?
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I agree. The thing with the education/political leaning bias was that the general trend shows as levels of education goes up the likelihood of voting to the left increases.
It's not saying that every higher educated person will vote left, nor that all poorly educated people vote right (inner cities which have lower educational achievements voting Labour while suburbs/villages with a more educated population voting Tory show this). As I said I did business and economics etc. Most of my lecturers who were Professors and Doctors would almost certainly have been Tory voters.
Of course there will be hypocrisy on all sides, like you mention the socialists who send their kids to private school and the likes of Geoffrey Robinson, against the pro-capitalist right that went running for help from the government for a bail out the second there was trouble.
I agree about people people accepting policies that don't impact them directly and like you try my best to get a broader view in terms of news even if I find the source irritating. Even stuff I have a tendency to agree with more like the Guardian can rile me because they present it in such a clearly one-sided way, which both sides are doing to ever more extremes to compensate for the bias of the other until you just end up with two polarised views with little to no attempt to take on board the others viewpoint.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Your university education isn’t worth a wank because you’re clueless and as someone else put it to you if Boris shit on your head you’d say it’s ice cream.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Yes they migrate more to centre/right but that is often because circumstances and responsibilities necessitates it rather than change of belief. It's selfishness, but for non-selfish reasons because they wish to protect their loved ones.
Just as you say 'old pot head' never had to grow up the same can be said of the likes of JRM, Alexander and Cameron (as well as the likes of Corbyn). When have they had to question what they believe? You get the affluent middle class kids who will play along with being rebellious but when push comes to shove they'll toe the line and do what mummy and daddy tell them - they don't want the purse strings to be cut and few of them would manage if they were. Rich kids are just as likely to be ingrained into voting a particular way by their parents as the working class "we're Labour voters here boy and don't you forget it" are.
People can be intelligent but not educated. Some can be educated but not intelligent - they can just regurgitate what they've been told. The thing that annoyed me about uni was that you're led to believe it's a far more adult, less prescriptive environment where independent thought and questioning are encouraged. I didn't find that to be the case by and large. I felt I was able to question the teachers more at A level tbh.
But intelligence can come in different ways. Being able to know a smart business idea and how to sell it is and make vast sums of money is intelligent in it's own way. But it can also be massively stupid in others because it's massively damaging to society or the environment etc.Many of the rich entrepreneurs are college drop outs and in many ways it's why they've succeeded. Firstly because that desire for money was already there which being a student didn't satisfy but also by not doing the courses etc they were blissfully ignorant of the many potholes and problems that could lie in their wake, so they didn't worry about them or get put off.
Or as Confucius said "the superior man knows what is right, the inferior man knows what will sell "
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Just reading that shutting Parliament has not only stopped scrutinisation of the government over Brexit it’s also going to stop crucial bills in dealing with no deal being passed before October 31st. Boris the genius.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Should have called it Notacthammer.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
See my post last night
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I've just got The Who song going on in my head now.