The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (170 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

£15 billion bridge
Pork pies to the Yanks
Retire at 75

What a time to be alive thank God the hard left aren’t in

What’s the bridge?

 

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[CCFCSteve]

Why would you wave through a deal there was absolutely no attempt to get cross party consensus on? Why on earth do you expect Labour MPs to do that for the convenience of the Tory party and their red lines. They were right to note vote it through.

The reality is that the Tories own Brexit, end of story.

For the good of the country ?!!

I do take the point that May should’ve tried to build a consensus. As shown from the alternative options voting though I’m not sure how successful that would’ve been.

Both main parties campaigned on leaving the single market and the customs union (as it was) so not majorly different. The WA pretty much delivered what Labour wanted. They (together with ERG) voted it down.

We’ll have to just agree to disagree I guess and see how the voting public views the main parties conduct in due course.

 

[skybluetony176]

What’s the bridge?

Isn’t a Scandinavian murder mystery who done it drama?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What’s the bridge?

Porky has proposed to build one between Stranraer and Larne

 

[Sick Boy]

Porky has proposed to build one between Stranraer and Larne

Hahaha...I see he’s learnt nothing from his failed vanity projects from his time as mayor.

 

[skybluetony176]

Hahaha...I see he’s learnt nothing from his failed vanity projects from his time as mayor.

He is obsessed with bridge building (not the metaphorical type). Then there’s the worlds most expensive slide.

 

[Ian1779]

Throw ideas out and see what the public thinks?

Gone well with Brexit hasn't it..........

There is more to the world than Brexit.

Let’s say Boris gets his way.... at some point he has to come back to the reality that his party has single handedly ripped this country apart... and that has nothing to do with Yellowhammer or no-deal disaster predictions. They’ve screwed this country... Brexit is the icing on the dog-shit cake.

If anything you’d think he’d want to drag his feet to avoid this.

 

[Astute]

So they should be paid enough to survive on full time pay in the first place.

And how much is this?

Should unskilled workers get the same as skilled workers or should everyone get a big pay rise?

If everyone got a big pay rise inflation would shoot up. If inflation shoots up then wages would need to shoot up to keep up with inflation.

 

[Astute]

There is more to the world than Brexit.

Let’s say Boris gets his way.... at some point he has to come back to the reality that his party has single handedly ripped this country apart... and that has nothing to do with Yellowhammer or no-deal disaster predictions. They’ve screwed this country... Brexit is the icing on the dog-shit cake.

If anything you’d think he’d want to drag his feet to avoid this.

Which is what I have been saying. But because I don't concentrate on the good or bad of certain things this gets ignored.

As you will know I said about Corbyn being the wrong person to take Labour forward. I said it was his dodgy background, changing policies to just go against the Tories and his total lack of charisma. There was a list of people on here defending him. They were even saying there was nobody better in the Labour party. Yet I still say that a half decent leader would have crushed the Tories by now. But no. We still have Corbyn. We still have him wanting the exact opposite of the Tories. And that is even when he spends years saying what he wants and the Tories finally agree with him. Then people wonder why Labour are doing so badly in the polls when the Tories are ripping the UK apart.

 

[Sick Boy]

Which is what I have been saying. But because I don't concentrate on the good or bad of certain things this gets ignored.

As you will know I said about Corbyn being the wrong person to take Labour forward. I said it was his dodgy background, changing policies to just go against the Tories and his total lack of charisma. There was a list of people on here defending him. They were even saying there was nobody better in the Labour party. Yet I still say that a half decent leader would have crushed the Tories by now. But no. We still have Corbyn. We still have him wanting the exact opposite of the Tories. And that is even when he spends years saying what he wants and the Tories finally agree with him. Then people wonder why Labour are doing so badly in the polls when the Tories are ripping the UK apart.

Who’s this list of people defending Corbyn on here?

 

[Ian1779]

Which is what I have been saying. But because I don't concentrate on the good or bad of certain things this gets ignored.

As you will know I said about Corbyn being the wrong person to take Labour forward. I said it was his dodgy background, changing policies to just go against the Tories and his total lack of charisma. There was a list of people on here defending him. They were even saying there was nobody better in the Labour party. Yet I still say that a half decent leader would have crushed the Tories by now. But no. We still have Corbyn. We still have him wanting the exact opposite of the Tories. And that is even when he spends years saying what he wants and the Tories finally agree with him. Then people wonder why Labour are doing so badly in the polls when the Tories are ripping the UK apart.

I will defend Corbyn - and I have consistently explained why. Labour have to offer something different, not be a Tory clone. Is his leadership going to put people off voting? absolutely. However it was also his (and McDonnell’s) vision for a different Labour Party that reversed the slide that started in 2010. You can’t ignore the fact that he has rejuvenated the grass-roots of the party and dragged it from the doldrums.

I’m proud to be part of a party that is relentlessly against austerity - not ambivalent to it. A party that doesn’t want to drop a bomb on somewhere on the beckon call of someone else, or that at least wants to make a considered decision before doing so. A party that wants to save the NHS - not sell it off to Trump and his lackies. Were you happier when Labour abstained on austerity and welfare? Did you think they were more ‘electable’ when their best policy announcement was a mug about immigration?
If that makes me deluded, naive, idiotic so be it - I’ll live with it.

They have lost voters over Brexit by trying to negotiate the middle ground. It was the right approach, but we are now so entrenched that they have suffered for it.

Corbyn won’t be there for ever. If there is another leader that will take Labour forward in the same vein and not drag them back to the centre to be a Tory-lite knock off then they’ll get my support. Right now all I see is careerist MP’s offering no vision and no ideas - show me where there is any kind of leader from the party that would bring anything to the table.

 

[Astute]

I will defend Corbyn - and I have consistently explained why. Labour have to offer something different, not be a Tory clone. Is his leadership going to put people off voting? absolutely. However it was also his (and McDonnell’s) vision for a different Labour Party that reversed the slide that started in 2010. You can’t ignore the fact that he has rejuvenated the grass-roots of the party and dragged it from the doldrums.

I’m proud to be part of a party that is relentlessly against austerity - not ambivalent to it. A party that doesn’t want to drop a bomb on somewhere on the beckon call of someone else, or that at least wants to make a considered decision before doing so. A party that wants to save the NHS - not sell it off to Trump and his lackies. Were you happier when Labour abstained on austerity and welfare? Did you think they were more ‘electable’ when their best policy announcement was a mug about immigration?
If that makes me deluded, naive, idiotic so be it - I’ll live with it.

They have lost voters over Brexit by trying to negotiate the middle ground. It was the right approach, but we are now so entrenched that they have suffered for it.

Corbyn won’t be there for ever. If there is another leader that will take Labour forward in the same vein and not drag them back to the centre to be a Tory-lite knock off then they’ll get my support. Right now all I see is careerist MP’s offering no vision and no ideas - show me where there is any kind of leader from the party that would bring anything to the table.

I gave up when you mentioned a party not wanting to drop a bomb. Forgotten about Bliar already? Forgotten about Corbyn who sympathised with those who killed innocent people with bombs but always refused to show sympathy for those innocent people...including children...... killed by bombs who he did sympathise with.

 

[Astute]

Who’s this list of people defending Corbyn on here?

Look at the post directly below yours

 

[Ian1779]

I gave up when you mentioned a party not wanting to drop a bomb. Forgotten about Bliar already? Forgotten about Corbyn who sympathised with those who killed innocent people with bombs but always refused to show sympathy for those innocent people...including children...... killed by bombs who he did sympathise with.

You know nearly every sensible Labour voter despised Blair’s actions.

Don’t turn into Grendel turfing out this line - you’re better than that.

 

[Astute]

You know nearly even sensible Labour voter despised Blair’s actions.

Don’t turn into Grendel turfing out this line - you’re better than that.

But you said a party who wouldn't drop a bomb. They are all the same when in power.

I am Labour 100%. But I can see the faults with Corbyn. I am not blind to them just because he is the Labour party leader. And he changes his policies just to oppose the Tories. He keeps getting played by them. If the Tories want Corbyn to do something all they have to do is the opposite. This isn't the way Labour should be run. Just look at the present state of the Labour party. We are becoming unvotable. Even I am coming close to not voting Labour next time. Yet I am supposed to be happy with Corbyn because he won't be the leader for ever.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The name counts for nothing when there’s a minority party in the Tory Party and the minority seems to have taken control and abandon traditional Tories and their values. Such as parliamentary democracy.

Says a great deal about you that does Tony

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[Ian1779]

But you said a party who wouldn't drop a bomb. They are all the same when in power.

I am Labour 100%. But I can see the faults with Corbyn. I am not blind to them just because he is the Labour party leader. And he changes his policies just to oppose the Tories. He keeps getting played by them. If the Tories want Corbyn to do something all they have to do is the opposite. This isn't the way Labour should be run. Just look at the present state of the Labour party. We are becoming unvotable. Even I am coming close to not voting Labour next time. Yet I am supposed to be happy with Corbyn because he won't be the leader for ever.

I can see the faults with Corbyn.. i understand why people consider him ‘not looking like a leader’ - I don’t agree with it but I get it.

You say we keep changing policy to oppose Tories - but that is only on Brexit. I can’t see any other domestic policies that have shifted at all. You say he’s getting played by the Tories... pretty sure I’ve just spent the last 10 days seeing them wiped across the floor.

What do you think they should do? I have spent 2 years on here saying that Labour need to think very carefully about how they approach this. They can’t afford to ignore the Leave voters and jump all in for Remain. The Lib Dems are about to write Revoke Article 50 into their manifesto. The Tories want to jump off a cliff face. Where should Labour go? Either extreme is lunacy... but supposedly that’s where ‘the real leadership’ is...

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I can see the faults with Corbyn.. i understand why people consider him ‘not looking like a leader’ - I don’t agree with it but I get it.

You say we keep changing policy to oppose Tories - but that is only on Brexit. I can’t see any other domestic policies that have shifted at all. You say he’s getting played by the Tories... pretty sure I’ve just spent the last 10 days seeing them wiped across the floor.

What do you think they should do? I have spent 2 years on here saying that Labour need to think very carefully about how they approach this. They can’t afford to ignore the Leave voters and jump all in for Remain. The Lib Dems are about to write Revoke Article 50 into their manifesto. The Tories want to jump off a cliff face. Where should Labour go? Either extreme is lunacy... but supposedly that’s where ‘the real leadership’ is...

There’s no power to be had without compromise which makes me wonder if momentum and socialist grass roots are far more interested in shouting about what’s wrong that having to use power to change it! Jc does not have the broad appeal to win an election. That’s such a shame but it does appear to be fact.

 

[Grendel]

You know nearly every sensible Labour voter despised Blair’s actions.

Don’t turn into Grendel turfing out this line - you’re better than that.

Shane John McDonnell isn’t

John McDonnell apologises for praising the IRA and claims he did everything he could to secure peace

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And how much is this?

Should unskilled workers get the same as skilled workers or should everyone get a big pay rise?

If everyone got a big pay rise inflation would shoot up. If inflation shoots up then wages would need to shoot up to keep up with inflation.

Increase the minimum wage to a genuine living wage so that the government is not subsidising low wages with tax credits

Offer greater regulation on the gig economy and agency work such that one’s income is known and assured

There are major case studies now into the effects of minimum wage increases on employment rates and inflation. Sure, if you propose to go up to £50/hour you’ll price employers out. In practice, increasing wages at the bottom end gives people more surplus income which they put back into the economy and joined by a small rise in retail prices. More to the point you wouldn’t necessarily have to implement the same wage nationally if locally living costs weren’t as high.

 

[Astute]

I can see the faults with Corbyn.. i understand why people consider him ‘not looking like a leader’ - I don’t agree with it but I get it.

You say we keep changing policy to oppose Tories - but that is only on Brexit. I can’t see any other domestic policies that have shifted at all. You say he’s getting played by the Tories... pretty sure I’ve just spent the last 10 days seeing them wiped across the floor.

What do you think they should do? I have spent 2 years on here saying that Labour need to think very carefully about how they approach this. They can’t afford to ignore the Leave voters and jump all in for Remain. The Lib Dems are about to write Revoke Article 50 into their manifesto. The Tories want to jump off a cliff face. Where should Labour go? Either extreme is lunacy... but supposedly that’s where ‘the real leadership’ is...

I have never said about him not looking like a leader. But I suppose there is truth in that. He looks more like Albert Steptoe more than a leader :smuggrin:

Only on Brexit? The biggest thing to hit the UK for a very long time and you call it 'only'

Leaders can hold an audience. They can fight back against anything. But look just last week when Ian Austin had a go at him. He didn't....or couldn't.....say anything back. Yet as you say you will defend him.

 

[Ian1779]

I have never said about him not looking like a leader. But I suppose there is truth in that. He looks more like Albert Steptoe more than a leader :smuggrin:

Only on Brexit? The biggest thing to hit the UK for a very long time and you call it 'only'

Leaders can hold an audience. They can fight back against anything. But look just last week when Ian Austin had a go at him. He didn't....or couldn't.....say anything back. Yet as you say you will defend him.

TBF Austin is a c***

 

[Astute]

Increase the minimum wage to a genuine living wage so that the government is not subsidising low wages with tax credits

Offer greater regulation on the gig economy and agency work such that one’s income is known and assured

There are major case studies now into the effects of minimum wage increases on employment rates and inflation. Sure, if you propose to go up to £50/hour you’ll price employers out. In practice, increasing wages at the bottom end gives people more surplus income which they put back into the economy and joined by a small rise in retail prices. More to the point you wouldn’t necessarily have to implement the same wage nationally if locally living costs weren’t as high.

So if you raise unskilled wages to that of skilled workers where do we go next? And also reduce the working week for more money?

 

[Astute]

TBF Austin is a c***

Maybe. But how about what was said? Defend Corbyn. You say you will.

 

[djr8369]

For the good of the country ?!!

I do take the point that May should’ve tried to build a consensus. As shown from the alternative options voting though I’m not sure how successful that would’ve been.

.

If it has been done straight away with the groundwork laid and expectations managed it would have been fine IMO.

Problem with the indicative votes was by the time they came along the Brexiters and managed to completely change the mandate derived from the ref and convinced a third of the country they voted for no deal even though it had only previously been mentioned as something we explicitly wouldn’t do.




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[Brighton Sky Blue]

There’s no power to be had without compromise which makes me wonder if momentum and socialist grass roots are far more interested in shouting about what’s wrong that having to use power to change it! Jc does not have the broad appeal to win an election. That’s such a shame but it does appear to be fact.

His policies are overwhelmingly popular but too many straw man stories and ‘Jerry wants a bomb under your car’ headlines have taken the desired effect. The best Boris can do is propose £15 billion on a bridge-clearly insane but yet to see G pass comment

 

[Ian1779]

I have never said about him not looking like a leader. But I suppose there is truth in that. He looks more like Albert Steptoe more than a leader :smuggrin:

Only on Brexit? The biggest thing to hit the UK for a very long time and you call it 'only'

Leaders can hold an audience. They can fight back against anything. But look just last week when Ian Austin had a go at him. He didn't....or couldn't.....say anything back. Yet as you say you will defend him.

Brexit is an analogy for the failings of the government and establishment for the last 40 years. I’m not trivialising it at all but you know that all the shit of austerity, welfare, immigration, housing crisis, underinvestment in education/health/social care has been the driver for voting Leave. Anyone who just thinks it’s about sovereignty or ‘taking back control’ is naive. So you have to do something about the underlying reasons.

The Tories have done fuck all to address these issues = decisive on Brexit
Labour try to address the underlying issues = incoherent on Brexit.

 

[Grendel]

If it has been done straight away with the groundwork laid and expectations managed it would have been fine IMO.

Problem with the indicative votes was by the time they came along the Brexiters and managed to completely change the mandate derived from the ref and convinced a third of the country they voted for no deal even though it had only previously been mentioned as something we explicitly wouldn’t do.




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May constantly said we’d leave without a deal before the 2017 election

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So if you raise unskilled wages to that of skilled workers where do we go next? And also reduce the working week for more money?

The evidence would appear that we go to a society where the government doesn’t subsidise low wages with welfare and where people don’t need to take on unhealthy hours to survive. Proposals in the latest large scale American study support wages at around $13/hour, or about £11/hour here. That isn’t really a ludicrous position and in reality Corbyn is proposing even lower than that

 

[djr8369]

May constantly said we’d leave without a deal before the 2017 election

Yes, after the ref then? And to pander to the Brexiters who we’re pushing for a harder Brexit.


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[Astute]

Brexit is an analogy for the failings of the government and establishment for the last 40 years. I’m not trivialising it at all but you know that all the shit of austerity, welfare, immigration, housing crisis, underinvestment in education/health/social care has been the driver for voting Leave. Anyone who just thinks it’s about sovereignty or ‘taking back control’ is naive. So you have to do something about the underlying reasons.

The Tories have done fuck all to address these issues = decisive on Brexit
Labour try to address the underlying issues = incoherent on Brexit.

Are you forgetting that the Labour party were in power? And this is recent history. This is why you most probably went for 40 years.

So what did Labour do when they were in power?

 

[Grendel]

Yes, after the ref then? And to pander to the Brexiters who we’re pushing for a harder Brexit.


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Well you can’t say people going into the election were not aware of the possibility and yet the Tory share of the vote was the highest for over 3 decades

 

[Grendel]

Are you forgetting that the Labour party were in power? And this is recent history. This is why you most probably went for 40 years.

So what did Labour do when they were in power?

He will just say it was a Tory light government not labour

 

[Ian1779]

Are you forgetting that the Labour party were in power? And this is recent history. This is why you most probably went for 40 years.

So what did Labour do when they were in power?

Behave like the Tories. Remember Blair was Thatcher’s greatest invention. The fact the the Murdoch press switched political allegiance tells you everything you need to know.

There were a few good things in there - they had to in order to keep power for so long... but by the end they were indistinguishable.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He will just say it was a Tory light government not labour

Your thoughts on the Pork Pie Bridge?