Well I’m not saying that I’m saying the indicative votes were done too late when positions were entrenched and the mandate of the ref and been twisted.
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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (38 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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Well I’m not saying that I’m saying the indicative votes were done too late when positions were entrenched and the mandate of the ref and been twisted.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Oh in some respects they were very much old labour
They raided the pension funds of ordinary workers and have crippled final salary schemes across the industry - it’s now showing that ordinary workers are being taxed collectively £10 billion a year more than under the conservative regime purely due to that one action
Christ knows what McDonnell would do if he got his hands on the pension sector - especially when his promises of free handouts here there and everywhere are not affordable.
Labour are always the same. Promise some up front benefits to workers but stealth tax then to the hilt to pay for it
Astute
Well-Known Member
What is Corbyn proposing in reality then?
35 hours a week. £10 an hour. £350 a week.
Astute
Well-Known Member
So all Tory governments are bad but Labour werr OK as they were like the Tories?
It is OK defending something as long as you can admit to the wrong. You are trying to blame everything on the Tories. Lack of investment and more. But....
In the last 22 years things have got worse. That is why a lot of people blame the EU. It is the period where the EU has managed to get a strong hold on Europe.
In this time Labour have been in power for 13 years, a coalition for 5 years and the Tories for 4 years. Even if you add the coalition to the Tory years you will find that Labour has been in power for a few years longer. The housing crisis grew under Labour. The lowest investment for a very long time. I could go on but you know the truth.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Labour has an issue with anti-semitism, which is complex. Ignorance, a lack of education and yes in a very minute amount of cases - pure and adulterated racism. There is also a massive issue with the fact that lots of Labour members, supporters, MP’s and the leadership openly support Palestine. To ignore this as a factor is missing the issue. There needs to be a comprehensive education program for ALL members and this should also be extended and offered to voters. The same thing needs to happen with Islamaphobia and most certainly needs to happen with the Tories - where the problem of intolerance is even greater.
The problem I have with Ian Austin (and others) is that despite all I’ve said the proportion is tiny within the Labour members (less than 1%) and even within voters it is a tiny minority (albeit much harder to measure). These people are weaponising the problem, they don’t really care about it. If they did they would support the new systems to deal with it after the old ones were found to be unfit for purpose. They’d be involved in the education process... they don’t want to know.
Joan Ryan is a champion of an openly apartheid regime. She was filmed taking money from The Israeli administration to influence and target British politicians (Tory & Labour) - are you telling me these actions are in line with people abhorred by anti-semitism.
He hates the leadership - I get it. Then say what you’d do better, how your ideas are better. He just comes across a bitter angry person that will look for anything to berate Corbyn. He’s left the party for Christ’s sake - that’s how much he cares about Labour.
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Ian1779
Well-Known Member
I’m not that naive. I know the truth is not that black and white. But things have come to a head - Brexit, Austerity, Housing, NHS - it’s all about to fall apart. And I only see one party with any ideas to deal with these problems - doesn’t mean they are all good. What will be in store after Brexit under a Tory regime? Blue passports, Chlorinated chicken, no NHS, work till you die but it’s OK because we have some celebratory 50p’s? The are redundant of ideas to move on, and worse they don’t even care about pretending otherwise anymore.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
£10 an hour is still not really comparable to skilled professionals. Where’s your problem?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The fact it will mean some businesses can’t afford it and will make them redundant
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
No evidence to back that up. More likely is a small raise in prices to offset the costs.
Why should the government subsidise low incomes? Out of interest-is Porky’s bridge affordable?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There’s plenty of evidence - many low part jobs are part time in small businesses that survive on tight margins.
Shoos, cafes, small tourist outlets - that combined with his other brain dead idea of wiping out zero hours contracts will cause untold damage to the owners of these businesses and the people who work there. It’s cheap sound byte politics that get people like you excited and ready to put your silly T Shirt on of the racist thug with the silly beret from with zero consideration or care for the people it impacts
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Same argument used when the minimum wage was introduced, still waiting for the effects we were promised by the righties.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You mean how “they” said the same when Labour originally brought in the minimum wage.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I’m really struggling to think of anyone I know who will get a wage rise if minimum wage is increased to £10 an hour and I can’t. Even my nephew who’s 19 left school with minimal qualifications and works in a warehouse stacking boxes gets more than that. Places like Costa coffee will have to start paying employees more but given companies like this are very skilled at not paying taxes fuck em.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
When I graduated, my first job was £3.56 an hour. The bloke who'd been working there for 14 years earned £3.62 an hour. Minimum wage came in, the company went bankrupt.
But... it deserved to, as its efficiencies = exploitation. Its competitors (who paid more!) survived as their budget wasn't all about grinding down. They also filled the gap, so everybody ended up employed under better conditions, elsewhere.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No it isn’t - the notion a small business can double a wage is laughable
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How many 16 year olds earn £10 an hour?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
G’s maths: £7.50 x 2 = £10
You’re right another £2.50 an hour will send every business to the wall
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Who's suggesting that unskilled wages should be raised to skilled wages?
At best you're argument could be that in order to maintain a decent incentive for people to become skilled workers you would need to maintain a decent gap between the two and in the vast majority of cases that could be largely be absorbed by profit margins. But it won't be because the rich shareholders and money lenders won't allow that.
It's amazing that the capitalists and markets who complain about state intervention aren't complaining at the state having to provide for many of their lower paid workers to be able to survive. Apart from complaining about taxes Perhaps if they paid people a wage they could live off, taxes wouldn't need to be so high as the government wouldn't need to provide tax credits and other welfare schemes that enable their workers to feed and shelter themselves.
With the working hours thing, there is the argument that if that became a standard thing there would have to be a downward price adjustment because people would have less overall disposable income. If companies want to sell their stuff they're going to have to make it so people can afford it. If they can't, people won't buy it and you'll go out of business.
The biggest issue is not that people at the bottom shouldn't be paid more, it's that those at the top need to be less greedy.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It’s supported by enormous case studies into the practical realities. Tell you what I’ll address the rest of your bullshit if you offer a thought on your mate’s bridge
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
And subsequently lost the Tory majority. Christ, if the people wanted no deal then they would have gained at that election.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Misses the fact a general election is *not* single issue, either.
Still, at least we got strong and stable government after that election...
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Not every business but some will clearly as it’s a significant park up and in some cases it’s over £6 an hour
Even those on £2.50 an hour it’s a whopping 25% increase on business co
I’m delighted you’ve bought into corbynomics.
I hope you don’t teach this rubbish at school
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But I thought you were a staunch capitalist? If a business can't survive paying it's expenses it should go out of business as the business model is flawed.
Or do you support the likes of the CAP and CFP which do very similar - keep inefficient businesses with products people don't want to buy going by buying the produce they can't sell via the market.
My sister was working at a company that was struggling, and the managing director from the Head Office turned up to explain why there were going to be further redundancies and no pay rises because it was unaffordable. He then got in his £100k+ Merc and was driven off by his chauffeur.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Was his name Alan Johnson from Peep Show?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
How many 16 year olds are working? Most don’t leave school now until 18.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
They are pushing Apprenticeships a lot atm.
tbh I was amazed when I found out how little ours earns.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Exactly I believe in private enterprise and non state intervention other than protections.
A business model is hardly flawed if it operates in its means and then the state imposes a 25% levy on its workforce
I doubt the people who work there will be over joyed either when Corbynomics throws them on the dole queue
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Businesses will respond by increasing prices. Go and look at the studies and data yourself-what you’re arguing for instead is that welfare should continue to be used to meet the shortfall. The effect of a rise is usually that workers have more to spend and put it back into the economy. Poverty goes down and the cost to the government does also.
Now about the bridge...
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Double? What do you think minimum wage is?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
G strikes it wrong #358998643
Grendel
Well-Known Member
That’s a myth many have jobs and can work similar hours to older workers. Also of course many do part time and weekend work to gain experience - this will be unaffordable to employers going forward
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Maybe the business model isn't flawed but the system within which it operates is if it doesn't allow the workers to be able to afford to live.
Describing paying someone more so they can afford to live as a 'levy'. Were you brought up in the Victorian era? FFS.
Also what is your rationale on 'protections'? Businesses should be protected in some cases but apparently people shouldn't?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Isn’t the labour policy by 2020 to remove the youth cap so all workers get £10 an hour regardless of age?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I thought you were fed up of oversubscribed universities full of dumbed down students?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So you’re talking about a very narrow aspect of the employment window then and using it as a broad stroke. Your argument doesn’t stand up for that simple reason you’re trying to weight it with misinformation.