The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (141 Viewers)

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As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%

  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
I doubt there is a single person on here who is an expert on foreign schools but also wherever I look private schools do exist in the oh so marvellous Finland
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To be fair I’ve only written dissertations on the subject
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I didn’t claim that they have *no* private schools but it’s on nowhere near the scale of this country. Their approach to education is distinctly more egalitarian
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Well it’s 3% of the population versus 7% - without looking at the movements in each country over the last 40 years say to form an opinion?

You mentioned Finland when I said labour are liking to abolish private schools and take ownership of private property. You said Finland. So did this happen in Finland?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Well it’s 3% of the population versus 7% - without looking at the movements in each country over the last 40 years say to form an opinion?

You mentioned Finland when I said labour are liking to abolish private schools and take ownership of private property. You said Finland. So did this happen in Finland?
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It’s a proposal by delegates at conference and I don’t agree with it were it to become policy. But the awkward fact is that private education is a huge driver of inequality of opportunity while grammars aren’t far behind. Finnish schools have exceeded our own for years and it’s one of many developed countries doing a better job.

Would like to hear your opinion on genuine Tory policy of mass expansion of grammar schools-which would be happening now had May not fucked the 2017 election.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
It’s a proposal by delegates at conference and I don’t agree with it were it to become policy. But the awkward fact is that private education is a huge driver of inequality of opportunity while grammars aren’t far behind. Finnish schools have exceeded our own for years and it’s one of many developed countries doing a better job.

Would like to hear your opinion on genuine Tory policy of mass expansion of grammar schools-which would be happening now had May not fucked the 2017 election.
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Clearly I’d have supported it
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Even though research into the policy shows it would widen and entrench inequality and that grammars don’t deliver enhanced progress over comprehensives for the poorest?
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Define the poorest. There is also an obvious reason for that

Will anyone benefit from such a system do you think?
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Astute said:
As in yes house prices are up but interest rates are at record low rates and have been for many years. So houses are as affordable as they have been at most times you mention.
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That's rather disingenuous. The 'affordability' only potential 'evens out' a bit on the mortgage interest rates. So if you can't afford the deposit (which is increasingly harder as house inflation exceeds wage inflation) then you can't even get a sniff at the mortgage in the first place.

Then if you can get the deposit credit is also increasingly difficult to obtain. The chances of you being approved for a mortgage now are much lower because the amount you need to borrow as a percentage of your wage is higher.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
Define the poorest. There is also an obvious reason for that

Will anyone benefit from such a system do you think?
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Those who are the least affluent. To get into a grammar, you need to pass the 11+. To pass the 11+, parents usually invest in tutors to specifically coach their children for the test and such children stick out like sore thumbs in the grammar school classroom. There is also of course the dangerous idea that a narrow measure of academic ability at the age of 11 should be used to determine the educational path a child takes. Moreover if grammar schools are expanded in sufficient numbers, teachers worth their salt will flee the comps and restore us back to the 3 tiered education system of the 50s and 60s. There are large scale longitudinal studies as well as shorter term ones commissioned by the government which flesh out the statistics.

The delegates' private schools proposal is wrong and early polling shows it would make no sense to have it in the manifesto, but the Tory education proposals themselves would do great harm and be just as difficult to implement from a practical perspective (i.e. not enough teachers for the schools we already have).
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
SIR ERNIE said:
Must say I’m delighted that Labour have finally clarified their position on Brexit today.
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It’s hardly snappy, but not sure what other position people want them to take. You can’t go full Remain or full No Deal like the Libs and Tories, you can’t say Mays deal is shite and then ask people to vote for it or remain and you can’t say for sure your deal won’t be better than remain until it’s negotiated.

As much as I think it’s fucking stupid, no deal should be on any ballot, even though it’s just kicking the can down the road in terms of our future relationship and I want Brexit over with as quick as possible. But I agree that the only way forward now is a referendum on a final deal. Anything else will be seen as party political game playing.

Of course the question of whether your average Brexiter will trust Corbyn to negotiate a better deal is a different matter.

Out of interest, were there to be a referendum with no deal, remain and a deal what deal do you think it should be?
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
It’s hardly snappy, but not sure what other position people want them to take. You can’t go full Remain or full No Deal like the Libs and Tories, you can’t say Mays deal is shite and then ask people to vote for it or remain and you can’t say for sure your deal won’t be better than remain until it’s negotiated.

As much as I think it’s fucking stupid, no deal should be on any ballot, even though it’s just kicking the can down the road in terms of our future relationship and I want Brexit over with as quick as possible. But I agree that the only way forward now is a referendum on a final deal. Anything else will be seen as party political game playing.

Of course the question of whether your average Brexiter will trust Corbyn to negotiate a better deal is a different matter.

Out of interest, were there to be a referendum with no deal, remain and a deal what deal do you think it should be?
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Don't think it can be. Brexiteers will say the leave vote has been split and remain given unfair advantage in a poll.
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Don't think it can be. Brexiteers will say the leave vote has been split and remain given unfair advantage in a poll.
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You'd have to have two questions otherwise the result will be meaningless.

You'd have leave or remain as the first question (if you're going to ask that question again) and then a second question for preference if we leave. Again there's a debate to be had as to how many options you have. Any deal or no deal or do you add in common market etc options.

Problem is if you give all the options you'd need alternative vote for method of leaving and you're in to the territory of making the whole ballot too complicated.

How certain would you be that everyone voting had a grasp on all the different options?
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
You'd have to have two questions otherwise the result will be meaningless.

You'd have leave or remain as the first question (if you're going to ask that question again) and then a second question for preference if we leave. Again there's a debate to be had as to how many options you have. Any deal or no deal or do you add in common market etc options.

Problem is if you give all the options you'd need alternative vote for method of leaving and you're in to the territory of making the whole ballot too complicated.

How certain would you be that everyone voting had a grasp on all the different options?
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Having it as two step is possibly an option, but the choices have to be binary. Trouble is that in order to have any kind of option of a deal on the ballot it would have to be negotiated beforehand to be able to be put forward - we can't do that now and if those negotiating don't want us to leave their incentive is to keep kicking the can down the road and get nowhere. You can't add in 'Common Market' options etc because it can't be a certainty that the EU would agree to it - it can't be a 'pick and choose' thing.

I'm certain very few people voting would have a grasp on all the options, myself included.

I still think the only way to get any movement on this is a legally binding second vote with the two nuclear options of Remain and No Deal offered. Exactly whats being voted for is plain and it might just lead to action and compromise on both sides to get a fair deal to stave off the possibility of their worst case scenario.
 
Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
It’s hardly snappy, but not sure what other position people want them to take. You can’t go full Remain or full No Deal like the Libs and Tories, you can’t say Mays deal is shite and then ask people to vote for it or remain and you can’t say for sure your deal won’t be better than remain until it’s negotiated.

As much as I think it’s fucking stupid, no deal should be on any ballot, even though it’s just kicking the can down the road in terms of our future relationship and I want Brexit over with as quick as possible. But I agree that the only way forward now is a referendum on a final deal. Anything else will be seen as party political game playing.

Of course the question of whether your average Brexiter will trust Corbyn to negotiate a better deal is a different matter.

Out of interest, were there to be a referendum with no deal, remain and a deal what deal do you think it should be?
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The party attempting to find a way to unite the entrenched positions is somehow lunatic...

We’re fucked.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
You'd have to have two questions otherwise the result will be meaningless.

You'd have leave or remain as the first question (if you're going to ask that question again) and then a second question for preference if we leave. Again there's a debate to be had as to how many options you have. Any deal or no deal or do you add in common market etc options.

Problem is if you give all the options you'd need alternative vote for method of leaving and you're in to the territory of making the whole ballot too complicated.

How certain would you be that everyone voting had a grasp on all the different options?
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That doesn’t work for the not insignificant number of Leavers whose preference is No Deal > Remain > Soft Brexit or Soft Brexit > Remain > No Deal

Needs to be a run off voting system, one stage, all options. Only question is what’s the deal?
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Don't think it can be. Brexiteers will say the leave vote has been split and remain given unfair advantage in a poll.
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Some form of ranking system avoids this. We could have solved this in Parliament in and afternoon with a run off vote from MPs, but they’re all pussies and don’t want to risk their votes.
 
Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
It’s more hope than expectation, but you’d have thought there’s a silent majority for compromise, surely?
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You’d hope so...

The PV supporters have pretty much been guaranteed another chance at a vote... but they’re still not happy. Makes you wonder if they ever will be until it’s remain vs remain as the 2 options.
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Some form of ranking system avoids this. We could have solved this in Parliament in and afternoon with a run off vote from MPs, but they’re all pussies and don’t want to risk their votes.
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But would you then have similar arguments like now of people arguing that their representative MP hadn't ranked everything in the same order as the people would've?
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
How certain would you be that everyone voting had a grasp on all the different options?
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The one thing for certain would be that the losing side would blame it on the complexities of the vote.
 
dutchman

dutchman

Well-Known Member
Ian1779 said:
You’d hope so...

The PV supporters have pretty much been guaranteed another chance at a vote... but they’re still not happy. Makes you wonder if they ever will be until it’s remain vs remain as the 2 options.
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What exactly do they mean by "remain"?

Do they mean "remain in the Common Market under the terms renegotiated by the Harold Wilson goverment"?

Do they mean "remain in the EU as it is now with absolutely no changes to its constitution in the future"?

Or do they mean "remain in an EU as it gradually becomes a self-serving monolithic superstate and obliterates all national identities"?

We all know which of those three options half the posters in this thread support.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
The Supreme Court ruling is quite damning on prorogation.

Watch them rule it's all OK now ;)
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
...or not.

In normal circumstances, this would be the end of the PM, wouldn't it?
 
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