The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (42 Viewers)

[westcountry_skyblue]

Anyway enough of this politics,I’m writing to the EFL to complain about the Bolton match as it didn’t go our way with referee mistakes and we need it replayed so we can go top of the league after our 7-0 win!!!

 

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[Grendel]

Clearly. Nothing else at play here after all, is there?

Oh what else is there to play? Are you seriously telling me that if Mr Corbyn was ahead in the polls and not languishing in third place he would not have triggered this?

The only way Johnson was ever going to end this was to whip a no confidence vote and resign the government

At that point Corbyn needs to form a government or call an election - given the Lib Dem’s have reaffirmed they will not support him he can toss a free vote on Scottish independence and if that fails go back to the country

Parliament is now non functioning and having the PM under some form of house arrest may amuse some but many many will be far from amused

 

[bezzer]

Grendel mate there is no more Democracy, the people who voted remain will stop at nothing to overturn the result...

Comedy Gold :emoji_joy:

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You are advocating removing parliamentary democracy.

The hypocrisy meter just exploded

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Leavers should think of this. What if there’s a general election and the next government is a Lib Dem minority government propped up by Plaid Cymru and the SNP and they choose to prorogue Parliament to cancel Brexit without parliaments approval? Today’s ruling stops that happening. Rather than bemoaning democracy is dead be grateful for it because the next government using Boris’ rule book has just been stopped from doing so.

That is true. We should all consider the extreme possibilities that might arise.
Like the next GE brings a Brexit/DUP/Tory Govt headed up by Farage himself...that'd go down well.
I suspect however that many many thousands will simply not bother voting ever again. Then you will get the unhealthy kind of democracy that will come back & bite you on the arse.

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[Grendel]

The hypocrisy meter just exploded

I’ve never opposed the Order Paper being with the government

 

[skybluetony176]

That is true. We should all consider the extreme possibilities that might arise.
Like the next GE brings a Brexit/DUP/Tory Govt headed up by Farage himself...that'd go down well.
I suspect however that many many thousands will simply not bother voting ever again. Then you will get the unhealthy kind of democracy that will come back & bite you on the arse.

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Well, that’s there choice. But at least now the standard has been set for whoever is next in government and the assurance that their policies will not be snowballed without scrutiny and be subject to the parliamentary democracy all sides apparently cherish (at least on the run up to the referendum anyway) is protected.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Exactly he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, just the good old insult because someone voted leave and not remain....a few remain voters on here have said the result should be respected however a certain few just can't accept it

The insults are because you start them, and then show yourself to do a disservice to amoebae.

Anyway, in the sense that you shouldn't engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, I'm out. Let's face it, your bot-like mutterings won't influence anybody.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

or swamp it with peers if you want to

Good old British democracy.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So all 17.4 million of us who actually won the majority don't deserve it, that makes sense doesn't it

So what if a Labour PM in future had done exactly what Alexander tried to do and used this episode as their justification? Or as tony put it, if a post GE govt used is as a means to limit time on parliament discussing/passing legislation to prevent Brexit being cancelled? I assume you'd be quite happy with that?

 

[shmmeee]

So all 17.4 million of us who actually won the majority don't deserve it, that makes sense doesn't it

And what about the votes of the 32 million? They don’t deserve the representatives they voted for?

 

[shmmeee]

But would you then have similar arguments like now of people arguing that their representative MP hadn't ranked everything in the same order as the people would've?

So? People don’t understand how democracy works, what’s new?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Well, that’s there choice. But at least now the standard has been set for whoever is next in government and the assurance that their policies will not be snowballed without scrutiny and be subject to the parliamentary democracy all sides apparently cherish (at least on the run up to the referendum anyway) is protected.

Very blaźe attitude...It ISN'T their choice. If 17.4m decide not to vote because it is pointless - that is the absolute opposite of democracy. A small minority will elect a Govt to run the country.

1 man 1 vote...laughable

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[shmmeee]

The question is who can we trust.

If we have another election now I don't know who I would vote for. I have voted Labour all my life. I normally ignore the bad and look at the good. I was dragged up on council estates in Coventry by a single parent. But now I am unsure what Labour stands for. Even the Labour party don't know what they stand for.

Tory? Wash your mouth out with soap.

Lib Dems? If they didn't get into bed with the Tories maybe. But now a no.

Reconsider Labour? Last time it was the Tories in disguise. Now there is nothing to disguise.

I give up. I hope there isn't another GE.

same as always mate, it’s really not a tough decision. On balance do you believe that life would be better if workers had more power/resources or if bosses did?

If the former, vote Labour. If the latter, vote Tory. Anything else is media froth frankly. The core values that attract people to each party still hold. The rest are single issue protest votes.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’ve never opposed the Order Paper being with the government

But you support the PM preventing Parliament from meeting?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Tubby laughing it all off with wise cracks for the assembled journalists. Who cares if you’re shit and corrupt as long as you tell some jokes in the process.

 

[skybluetony176]

Very blaźe attitude...It ISN'T their choice. If 17.4m decide not to vote because it is pointless - that is the absolute opposite of democracy. A small minority will elect a Govt to run the country.

1 man 1 vote...laughable

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It isn’t 1 man 1 vote. It’s First Past the Post.

 

[shmmeee]

Very blaźe attitude...It ISN'T their choice. If 17.4m decide not to vote because it is pointless - that is the absolute opposite of democracy. A small minority will elect a Govt to run the country.

1 man 1 vote...laughable

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democracy includes the right to not vote and allow others to make your decision. Always has.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

democracy includes the right to not vote and allow others to make your decision. Always has.

Unless it's a referendum you mean?

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[Deleted member 5849]

The question is who can we trust.

If we have another election now I don't know who I would vote for. I have voted Labour all my life. I normally ignore the bad and look at the good. I was dragged up on council estates in Coventry by a single parent. But now I am unsure what Labour stands for. Even the Labour party don't know what they stand for.

Tory? Wash your mouth out with soap.

Lib Dems? If they didn't get into bed with the Tories maybe. But now a no.

Reconsider Labour? Last time it was the Tories in disguise. Now there is nothing to disguise.

I give up. I hope there isn't another GE.

You see, I'm with you on tories and Lib Dems. Labour however I do know what they stand for. Ironically, I'm slightly worried they're leaning a little over-left on their recent policies, but I'd have to check a manifesto to see how they played out - the last one got me behind them.

On the question of trust however, it may be a low base, but we have a Prime Minister who has managed to get there despite lying, being sacked for lying, and discussing aiding and abetting somebody's desire to beat up a journalist! Now he's in charge, he shows no sign of being anything other than the man-child he's always appeared to be - the flagrant disregard of laws, rules, and general truth is startling really - he's unfit to be in office.

In that context, He's unelectable in normal times!

Anyway, referendum before election please. Then we can elect a government based on what they intend to do for the country, rather than see those policies sidetracked.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

It isn’t 1 man 1 vote. It’s First Past the Post.

Every man & woman has a vote. In the referendum, a swathe of potential voters didn't care.
What I am on about is in a GE they DO care, but feel that no manifesto is honourable so there is no point whatsoever.

Stumbling into the same scenario that you were afraid of in the first place pretty well

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[shmmeee]

Unless it's a referendum you mean?

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No then as well. If we ever have a referendum to decide what to do with Brexit that’ll apply.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

You see, I'm with you on tories and Lib Dems. Labour however I do know what they stand for. Ironically, I'm slightly worried they're leaning a little over-left on their recent policies, but I'd have to check a manifesto to see how they played out - the last one got me behind them.

On the question of trust however, it may be a low base, but we have a Prime Minister who has managed to get there despite lying, being sacked for lying, and discussing aiding and abetting somebody's desire to beat up a journalist! Now he's in charge, he shows no sign of being anything other than the man-child he's always appeared to be - the flagrant disregard of laws, rules, and general truth is startling really - he's unfit to be in office.

In that context, He's unelectable in normal times!

Anyway, referendum before election please. Then we can elect a government based on what they intend to do for the country, rather than see those policies sidetracked.

Yeah another referendum again and leave wins! What then, back to moaning??

 

[shmmeee]

Every man & woman has a vote. In the referendum, a swathe of potential voters didn't care.
What I am on about is in a GE they DO care, but feel that no manifesto is honourable so there is no point whatsoever.

Stumbling into the same scenario that you were afraid of in the first place pretty well

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Well there’s a fair argument that those people don’t understand politics and democracy would be better off if they didn’t vote. Voting is a responsibility to be informed as well as a right IMO.

but again, if people want to not vote and leave it to others to decide, that is their right.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yeah another referendum again and leave wins! What then, back to moaning??

Good chat.

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah another referendum again and leave wins! What then, back to moaning??

hopefully then we enact whatever the public have decided. The entire issue is we voted to leave and not where to go.

Most Brexiters want to kick the can down the road with no deal, I’d rather get us resolved personally.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Good chat.

Its a fair point, would another leave win finally make people accept a result?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

hopefully then we enact whatever the public have decided. The entire issue is we voted to leave and not where to go.

Most Brexiters want to kick the can down the road with no deal, I’d rather get us resolved personally.

No deal is the last option, by them taking it off the table it weakens our hand in negotiations for a better deal

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Its a fair point, would another leave win finally make people accept a result?

If you stop banging on with lazy soundbytes about moaning I might actually answer you.

In fact I have answered my position on that countless times, but it would involve you actually reading something.

 

[skybluetony176]

Every man & woman has a vote. In the referendum, a swathe of potential voters didn't care.
What I am on about is in a GE they DO care, but feel that no manifesto is honourable so there is no point whatsoever.

Stumbling into the same scenario that you were afraid of in the first place pretty well

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I’m 46 years of age and I’m yet to see a manifesto of an elected government that has been honoured, at least not in full anyway. We’re not exactly stumbling over new ground here.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

If you stop banging on with lazy soundbytes about moaning I might actually answer you.

In fact I have answered my position on that countless times, but it would involve you actually reading something.

I'm making a valid point

 

[shmmeee]

No deal is the last option, by them taking it off the table it weakens our hand in negotiations for a better deal

No deal just means we start the next phase of negotiations from a weaker position. You get that right? You don’t think it means we decide to never trade with the EU again do you?

Also, there is no better deal within Mays red lines. You want a better deal you’re going to have to give up one of the Brexit sacred cows. BTW Johnson clearly understands this as his plan seems to be to bring Mays deal back with a lick of PR paint.

No deal firstly isn’t a threat, only the most naive believe that me not having a lift home gets you to sell me your second hand car for cheaper.

No deal also has no say on the future relationship, where we’ll have all these arguments about SM CU etc again.

 

[shmmeee]

I’m 46 years of age and I’m yet to see a manifesto of an elected government that has been honoured, at least not in full anyway. We’re not exactly stumbling over new ground here.

As a Lib Dem 2010 voter, I’m over here like “Oh my sweet summer child”.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

hopefully then we enact whatever the public have decided. The entire issue is we voted to leave and not where to go.

Most Brexiters want to kick the can down the road with no deal, I’d rather get us resolved personally.

Yup. Meaningful negotiations, remove the bluster. May actually did do the meaningful negotiations, she just let the mindless bluster take over when she got back to this country, and surrounded her with inept Brexit secretaries who hung her out to dry to do the negotiating herself as they were chronically incapable and underprepared. Of course she then had a party where the so-called hardcore leavers voted to remain, when offered her deal! What we do see is where the lack of compromise is, where the desire to divide lies, and where people have no regard to the consequences.

And now? Who would take anything Johnson says at face value? Who would trust him? Who would deal with him on anything but a self-interested level?

That being said, if (when!) any negotiation ends up with a deal that ends up roughly where we are now, but losing our influence... or the catastrophe of no deal, at some stage you have to put it to the people and see if, now they know it really is social and economic suicide, do they *really* want to go with that? Or, do they *really* want to give up any influence for some illusion of compromise (potentially storing up issues further down the line, although I'd suspect that'd be a clamour to re-join the EU!). Or, do we stick as we are, with the issues that brings?

Ultimately, we're just showing that extricating from monoliths isn't as simple as a yes/no.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'm making a valid point

Brexshit lol