The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (76 Viewers)

[Grendel]

The manifesto had full attempts at costings which is more than can be said for the Tory equivalent. Yet you have nothing to say about a £15 billion bridge because you wouldn’t use it. Bizarre. Porky has also inflicted further damage on the pound which only recovers when No Deal seems less likely. I can only think if you were American you’d be railing against people not being charged to see the doctor.

Top of the list would be revoking HS2-a hopelessly over budget vanity project. Right up Porky’s street

It didn’t and it’s been widely ridiculed, oh and much of the cost is a consequence such increased inflation, crashing pension values and higher rates of interest - oddly they are not going to be costed it’s a residual impact

A bridge is in the manifesto? Must have missed that one.

HS2 is already under a huge contract and much of the cost will be committed

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I said that every party will have a manifesto and within the manifesto will be a policy intent on Europe

Even if a referendum happens before it will be a skewed referendum

I am guessing 5 political parties will have leave the Eu regardless of any prior referendum

Oh and I think one very major party will fix the Supreme Court issue in their manifesto as well

You also said that the entire general election would be fought on the basis of that one policy. I literally quoted you.

There is no evidence a referendum would be skewed because we have no idea what the question would be.

Yes, let's solve that pesky problem of an independent judiciary. I assume you'd be saying the Supreme Court needed to be fixed if it'd ruled for Alexander?

 

[Grendel]

You also said that the entire general election would be fought on the basis of that one policy. I literally quoted you.

There is no evidence a referendum would be skewed because we have no idea what the question would be.

Yes, let's solve that pesky problem of an independent judiciary. I assume you'd be saying the Supreme Court needed to be fixed if it'd ruled for Alexander?

If course it would be fought on that basis

If it’s not skewed I.e Is yes or no again the election will then be on how each party deals with that. One has said it would ignore the referendum anyway.

No one is even remotely proposing that anyway so it’s never going to happen. It would be one deal against remain

Again if an election followed that Brexit would be the dominant consideration

The Supreme Court and Bercow have over ridden parliamentary democracy - it’s a stupid system invented by Blair and his dumbass flat mate and we need to close it down - and I suspect Corbyn will believe that as well

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Keep to the truth.

I am not scared of anything. I just don't think there should be another referendum. Us leaving will cause me problems. It is causing me plenty already. But another referendum will make things worse. It won't solve anything. I couldn't even see it resolving anything if the vote was leave again. People like yourself will just continue to protest. And you seem to think it would all go smoothly if brexit was stopped.

I disagree another referendum wouldn't necessarily make things worse. It would all depend on how it was worded.

The problems we're now facing are predominantly due to two things.
1. It was never a legally binding referendum
2. Ambiguity over what Leave meant with a huge multitude of options touted but none chosen, so people could just choose the one they liked and assumed that was what was going to happen even though they had no assurances.

A second referendum could fix both those issues but making it clear it's No Deal leave versus Remain and making it legally binding.

I'm not saying it would see the problem cease. If the 2016 result was confirmed there would of course still be a vocal minority of those favouring remain. Similarly with Leave there would be those who'd very loudly argue against the new result. But the process of what we were doing and how we were doing it would be clear and anyone in Parliament (where it matters most in terms of process) who tried to stop it could legitimately be called undemocratic.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If course it would be fought on that basis

If it’s not skewed I.e Is yes or no again the election will then be on how each party deals with that. One has said it would ignore the referendum anyway.

No one is even remotely proposing that anyway so it’s never going to happen. It would be one deal against remain

Again if an election followed that Brexit would be the dominant consideration

The Supreme Court and Bercow have over ridden parliamentary democracy - it’s a stupid system invented by Blair and his dumbass flat mate and we need to close it down - and I suspect Corbyn will believe that as well

See above for how a second referendum could be done. Legally binding, clear process. Followed through on either way before any GE.

Of course some would still make it an issue in a following GE but it's importance would be diminished and more emphasis would be placed on the more general policies as a GE should be rather than potentially having some extremely hardcore right or left wing nonsense hidden behind a Brexit position.

Btw it was Alexander that had over-ridden parliamentary democracy by shutting it down unnecessarily. Their entire argument in the SC was that the prorogation wasn't done because of Brexit but for a Queen's Speech, they lost and their argument has been "you just want to stop Brexit happening". But you just spent three days literally arguing the entire thing was nothing to do with Brexit!

 

[Grendel]

I disagree another referendum wouldn't necessarily make things worse. It would all depend on how it was worded.

The problems we're now facing are predominantly due to two things.
1. It was never a legally binding referendum
2. Ambiguity over what Leave meant with a huge multitude of options touted but none chosen, so people could just choose the one they liked and assumed that was what was going to happen even though they had no assurances.

A second referendum could fix both those issues but making it clear it's No Deal leave versus Remain and making it legally binding.

I'm not saying it would see the problem cease. If the 2016 result was confirmed there would of course still be a vocal minority of those favouring remain. Similarly with Leave there would be those who'd very loudly argue against the new result. But the process of what we were doing and how we were doing it would be clear and anyone in Parliament (where it matters most in terms of process) who tried to stop it could legitimately be called undemocratic.

Andrew Neil correctly rips into anyone who adopts the absurd stance you have. It’s advisory due to the fact the government has to pass an act so actually it can always be rejected

The fact is the promise was made to implement the outcome - that is an undeniable fact

No deal versus remain is again a skewed argument. Not only on the leave side but remain. Many who voted remain 40 years ago will have now voted to leave as the EEC is not the EU. It’s entirely possible in a treaty of some European capital to have our veto removed and adopt currency and fiscal union. Would remain people all want that eventual outcome?

Oh and again after your referendum we have an election - the Tories say it was rigged and propose an immediate withdrawal again under Eu rules they can. Then it all happens again

 

[Ian1779]

Well clearly no it isn’t

I wasn’t aware most people wanted:

£31 billion of their pensions eradicated
£7 billion extra burden on schools
Higher inflation through union increased lower
£11 billion at least spent on nationalisation of businesses
Loss of stock market confidence

Must have missed that “survey” dude

This is complete toss... you sound like Toby Young.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It didn’t and it’s been widely ridiculed, oh and much of the cost is a consequence such increased inflation, crashing pension values and higher rates of interest - oddly they are not going to be costed it’s a residual impact

A bridge is in the manifesto? Must have missed that one.

HS2 is already under a huge contract and much of the cost will be committed

Porky wants it built-do you deny that? HS2 is a colossal waste of money spearheaded by the Tories. Again, you obfuscate rather than admit the mistake.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So what's to stop the government passing an Act specifically saying that the result would be legally binding? Nothing. They can do that if they want. Whether they would choose to is another issue entirely.

Of course the Tories could put that in their manifesto. But let's face it, if Remain won a 2nd ref Brexit would go on a pledge of doing Brexit, no new referendum (in case they lost it) so the hardcore leavers would go there. If Tories went 3rd referendum they'd lose votes to Brexit and potentially hand the election to Labour. To prevent that they could copy the Brexit stance but that would be not be popular with Remainers within the party and also be seem as undemocratic and lose them votes from others.

 

[Grendel]

Porky wants it built-do you deny that? HS2 is a colossal waste of money spearheaded by the Tories. Again, you obfuscate rather than admit the mistake.

It’s not in a manifesto - the end

 

[Grendel]

So what's to stop the government passing an Act specifically saying that the result would be legally binding? Nothing. They can do that if they want. Whether they would choose to is another issue entirely.

Of course the Tories could put that in their manifesto. But let's face it, if Remain won a 2nd ref Brexit would go on a pledge of doing Brexit, no new referendum (in case they lost it) so the hardcore leavers would go there. If Tories went 3rd referendum they'd lose votes to Brexit and potentially hand the election to Labour. To prevent that they could copy the Brexit stance but that would be not be popular with Remainers within the party and also be seem as undemocratic and lose them votes from others.

I’m only quoting Andrew Neil - perhaps you know more than Andrew - who knows.

Every single act of legislation has to be passed through parliament and “signed” by the monarch. So a referendum result of revocation has to be authorised through parliament. It’s the only reason advisory is quoted.

Fortunately not one political party is adopting your idea - which may tell you something

Also a referendum needs an agreement on the question so pretty much every anti Oct 31 mo would need unity on it and even then it would need to be ratified by the commission,

The whole process would take a minimum of 5 months - do you seriously believe parliament can sit and pass any legislation for 5 months as the government has lost the Order Paper?

Sounds like a plan. Is your name Baldrick by any chance?

 

[Astute]

I don’t think there’s anyone who expects it to go smoothly if Brexit were to be stopped. It’s going to impact the country for decades to come.

Exactly. But on here I am not allowed to say so. It frequently seems that only one point is allowed and that is stopping Brexit and ways of stopping Brexit. Hardly any thought goes into what would happen if it is stopped. And if someone like myself mentions it you get nothing but grief.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s not in a manifesto - the end

We will continue our programme of strategic national investments, including High Speed 2

Conservative Party 2017 Manifesto. p23-24

 

[Sick Boy]

Exactly. But on here I am not allowed to say so. It frequently seems that only one point is allowed and that is stopping Brexit and ways of stopping Brexit. Hardly any thought goes into what would happen if it is stopped. And if someone like myself mentions it you get nothing but grief.

there are a mixture of pro and anti Brexit posters on this thread. I don’t think there’s anyone who’d expect it being stopped to be simple. Regardless of what happens the whole process is going to continue to impact the country for the foreseeable future, I just can’t see a way out of it or making it better whatever way is implemented.

 

[Astute]

My opinion was the same - leave had to be assumed to be no deal. But literally no-one on the Leave campaign said that is what they were doing. Every single one, inc. current Mr. No Deal Farage were saying parts would be kept or we could pick and choose.

We may have been able to see beyond that but there are many how wouldn't and would've taken them at their word. There are still people going on about bendy bananas even though it was totally debunked over a decade ago.

I fully agree. There will be many on both sides that didn't put any thoughts into their actions. But is it a real reason to have another referendum?

I would be happy for a referendum to happen if a party sets out their plans like the Lib Dems have and they got voted in on it. But just having another one because the losing side is unhappy is not a good way to go forward. All faith in our system would be lost. It is low enough now as it is.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

If a second referendum results in Remain, that’s the will of the people. Anyone protesting on that point would look rather silly.

I don’t buy this “ooohhhh Brexiters will riot” bollock and even if I did you don’t negotiate with terrorists.

This particular posting is a joke isn't it ?

 

[Astute]

I disagree another referendum wouldn't necessarily make things worse. It would all depend on how it was worded.

'We know you voted leave but can we try again?'

We know they lie to us. Why would anyone think they are being truthful for once?

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think Johnson wants a deal, he just believes he can wipe out Labour with the rhetoric of people vs parliament at an election.

On Singapore style Brexit:

Ten Singapore-style tax-free ports to be created after Brexit


Boris Johnson plans Singapore-style tax-free zones around UK to power post-Brexit economy

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Merkel warns of danger to EU of Singapore-style UK on its border

Hunt says UK 'can learn' from Singapore

The Tories haven’t changed. They aren’t suddenly big state tax and spenders.

Not really evidence that we will suddenly become the new Singapore though (the port idea, from what I can read, sound sensible if we plan to be ‘open for wider international business’)

The risk of a Singapore type model would significantly increase on a ‘no deal’ If we get a trade deal with the EU they will attempt to minimise any significant competitive edge so it’s unlikely

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Most leavers thought we’d stay in the single market. More so than Remainers. See that graph I posted earlier.

It’s like people think we can’t just go back and see what people thought in 2016. It’s just a few ideologues claiming 17.4m people think just like them with no evidence.

No. Most leavers didn't want to stay in the single market. You are completely out of touch.

 

[Astute]

Porky wants it built-do you deny that? HS2 is a colossal waste of money spearheaded by the Tories. Again, you obfuscate rather than admit the mistake.

Can we have full truth instead of half truth? It was a Labour plan.

HS2 will help bring Britain together - LabourList

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Can we have full truth instead of half truth? It was a Labour plan.

HS2 will help bring Britain together - LabourList

Who has been in government for a decade?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

'We know you voted leave but can we try again?'

We know they lie to us. Why would anyone think they are being truthful for once?

As I said, two main differences. Legally binding and what leave means actually defined rather than campaigned on a whole host of stuff that was never feasible to start with.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Exactly. But on here I am not allowed to say so. It frequently seems that only one point is allowed and that is stopping Brexit and ways of stopping Brexit. Hardly any thought goes into what would happen if it is stopped. And if someone like myself mentions it you get nothing but grief.

You are absolutely right. If it is stopped, where does that leave democracy in this country from thereon ? It will result in the rise of extremism and God knows what over the next few years. I think there will be deep, deep unrest and turmoil for a generation. Perhaps it would be best if we left the E.U. with the notionn of another referendum in 20 years. Its not ideal but I can't think of anything else.

 

[Astute]

there are a mixture of pro and anti Brexit posters on this thread. I don’t think there’s anyone who’d expect it being stopped to be simple. Regardless of what happens the whole process is going to continue to impact the country for the foreseeable future, I just can’t see a way out of it or making it better whatever way is implemented.

Which as you know is exactly what I have been saying for ages. But I get hammered on here for saying so.

Whatever happens there will be millions that are unhappy. Is there a happy medium? Don't even think that would work. But what would cause the least amount of problems? You can strike remain off that list.

 

[Astute]

As I said, two main differences. Legally binding and what leave means actually defined rather than campaigned on a whole host of stuff that was never feasible to start with.

So why isn't it legally binding and how could it be legally binding?

If remain can make up a new law to suit why can't leave?

 

[Sick Boy]

Which as you know is exactly what I have been saying for ages. But I get hammered on here for saying so.

Whatever happens there will be millions that are unhappy. Is there a happy medium? Don't even think that would work. But what would cause the least amount of problems? You can strike remain off that list.

And also leave as well in that case. The real resentment will come when EU rights get taken away. Funnily enough, people tend to not like it when rights are taken away against their will.

 

[Astute]

And also leave as well in that case.

Which would leave us with.........

 

[Sick Boy]

Which would leave us with.........

Think you replied before I edited. Exactly, that’s the point, it’s a huge mess.

 

[djr8369]

Exactly. But on here I am not allowed to say so. It frequently seems that only one point is allowed and that is stopping Brexit and ways of stopping Brexit. Hardly any thought goes into what would happen if it is stopped. And if someone like myself mentions it you get nothing but grief.

Not allowed? You literally just said it and somebody agreed with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Astute]

Think you replied before I edited. Exactly, that’s the point, it’s a huge mess.

How about the part you added?

The rights of those who voted leave and got the leave result?

Think about it. It hasn't been denied them.....yet.

 

[skybluetony176]

Could be an interesting week in Parliament next week

Commons no-confidence vote 'next week', says SNP MP

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Fortunately not one political party is adopting your idea - which may tell you something

Yees, it tells me that each political party would need to take a huge risk in not getting the result they wanted. Nothing to do with governance or ending the impasse, everything to do with political positioning.

Lib Dem, PC, SNP - could get remain, but risk getting their absolute worse case scenario - no deal

Brexit - total opposite. Could get the complete break they want but risk getting their worst case scenario - remain.

Tories - actually a mix of both remain and leave, but the leavers shout louder and the hierarchy are most worried about losing votes to Brexit so leave is the predominant position. I think many secretly wouldn't be concerned if remain won, but they'd also risk the no deal Brexit which they'd arguably have to back due to party orders. Moderate leavers would not favour either outcome. ERG etc would risk remain.

Labour are in a similar position with a mix of both, and again either side risk getting something they really don't want. They still can't pick a side definitively.

As I've said before, even the risk of such a thing happening could see movement on the issue because no-one wants to risk those outcomes.

And with the issue of it being put into the next manifesto the public seem sick of the entire charade so if something had occurred that brought the whole thing to an end do you really think one of them bringing it back up again would be a vote winner for the majority of voters who generally didn't give a shit in the first place? Not to mention the way it would look in terms of democratic process and acting on the will of the people which the other parties would be all over.

 

[Sick Boy]

How about the part you added?

The rights of those who voted leave and got the leave result?

Think about it. It hasn't been denied them.....yet.

I’m talking about legal rights, technically the referendum wasn’t legally binding.

 

[Astute]

I’m talking about legal rights, technically the referendum wasn’t legally binding.

Technically we beat Bolton 3-0.

Technically they don't have to listen to any retrospective laws. Like the one that says there can't be a no deal.

Yes it is all a joke. But technicalities will not get us out of this mess. Just about all the politicians involved said they would respect the result. They are all on record as saying so. Tell me what you think it will do to politics in the UK if not followed through. England was the big leave vote. If minds have changed then so be it. But it isn't easy to come to a democratic result in an undemocratic way.

Leave will be shit. Remain will be shit. Leave with or without a deal will be shit. So the final result will be shit whatever. And this is most probably why Labour are trying to get through it without saying too much. No technicalities required for this.

 

[shmmeee]

Keep to the truth.

I am not scared of anything. I just don't think there should be another referendum. Us leaving will cause me problems. It is causing me plenty already. But another referendum will make things worse. It won't solve anything. I couldn't even see it resolving anything if the vote was leave again. People like yourself will just continue to protest. And you seem to think it would all go smoothly if brexit was stopped.

I can’t make this any simpler.

The reason we haven’t left is because there’s party political fighting over how to leave. A referendum solves that by giving a clear direction. A GE with the country split how it is will do what it should and produce a hung parliament again and leave us no further forward.

If you want Brexit delivered, you have to break the political log jam caused by the bad design of the referendum. Call it a Remainer Cameron Conspiracy that needs overturning if it makes you feel better.