The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (54 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Technically we beat Bolton 3-0.

Technically they don't have to listen to any retrospective laws. Like the one that says there can't be a no deal.

Yes it is all a joke. But technicalities will not get us out of this mess. Just about all the politicians involved said they would respect the result. They are all on record as saying so. Tell me what you think it will do to politics in the UK if not followed through. England was the big leave vote. If minds have changed then so be it. But it isn't easy to come to a democratic result in an undemocratic way.

Leave will be shit. Remain will be shit. Leave with or without a deal will be shit. So the final result will be shit whatever. And this is most probably why Labour are trying to get through it without saying too much. No technicalities required for this.

No, technically we drew with Bolton. The equivalent would be our fans saying the spirit of the game was we won and we should be top of the league.

Frankly even if it was legally binding a52:48 result is not a mandate for the most extreme version that all available stats show only about 25-30% of the voting population actually support.

 

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[skybluetony176]

I can’t make this any simpler.

The reason we haven’t left is because there’s party political fighting over how to leave. A referendum solves that by giving a clear direction. A GE with the country split how it is will do what it should and produce a hung parliament again and leave us no further forward.

If you want Brexit delivered, you have to break the political log jam caused by the bad design of the referendum. Call it a Remainer Cameron Conspiracy that needs overturning if it makes you feel better.

Right now I’d settle for a leave only referendum if it means we can move forward. EEA vs Canada vs Hard Brexit. Winner takes all.

 

[shmmeee]

Right now I’d settle for a leave only referendum if it means we can move forward. EEA vs Canada vs Hard Brexit. Winner takes all.

I worry that not putting the most popular option on the ballot might not be the best for our democracy.

 

[skybluetony176]

I worry that not putting the most popular option on the ballot might not be the best for our democracy.

Hard Brexit is on there

 

[djr8369]

Right now I’d settle for a leave only referendum if it means we can move forward. EEA vs Canada vs Hard Brexit. Winner takes all.

This could end up happening because people are so bored but the disruption of potential riots in the event of revocation would be nothing compared to the disruption from hard brexit.


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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

This could end up happening because people are so bored but the disruption of potential riots in the event of revocation would be nothing compared to the disruption from hard brexit.


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The ramifications for refusing to execute the will of over 17 million voters would far outweigh the scaremongering of several years of readjustment in the economic world after Brexit.
On the riots front, do you think there'll be a few skirmishes in Trafalgar square one sunny afternoon and it will then all be forgotten about ? Do you not fear the rise of extremism as a consequence ?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Leave will be shit. Remain will be shit. Leave with or without a deal will be shit. So the final result will be shit whatever. And this is most probably why Labour are trying to get through it without saying too much. No technicalities required for this.

Don't talk to me about shit. I went to Whitley Abbey in the 1970's. That's real shit.

 

[djr8369]

The ramifications for refusing to execute the will of over 17 million voters would far outweigh the scaremongering of several years of readjustment in the economic world after Brexit.
On the riots front, do you think there'll be a few skirmishes in Trafalgar square one sunny afternoon and it will then all be forgotten about ? Do you not fear the rise of extremism as a consequence ?

I’m not saying there won’t be riots or whatever but even the governments own analysis shows any amount of rioting is not going to be a patch on no deal ramifications.


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[Astute]

I can’t make this any simpler.

The reason we haven’t left is because there’s party political fighting over how to leave. A referendum solves that by giving a clear direction. A GE with the country split how it is will do what it should and produce a hung parliament again and leave us no further forward.

If you want Brexit delivered, you have to break the political log jam caused by the bad design of the referendum. Call it a Remainer Cameron Conspiracy that needs overturning if it makes you feel better.

We are still in the EU because of those trying to keep us in. Remember all those who said that the result must be upheld but now say the opposite?

It was just a couple of weeks ago when they were privately in talks with the leaders of the EU countries on the chances of extending again. Then they passed that new law.

 

[Astute]

No, technically we drew with Bolton. The equivalent would be our fans saying the spirit of the game was we won and we should be top of the league.

Frankly even if it was legally binding a52:48 result is not a mandate for the most extreme version that all available stats show only about 25-30% of the voting population actually support.

Can you show the working out of your 'fact'?

 

[Sick Boy]

We are still in the EU because of those trying to keep us in. Remember all those who said that the result must be upheld but now say the opposite?

It was just a couple of weeks ago when they were privately in talks with the leaders of the EU countries on the chances of extending again. Then they passed that new law.

How is it the fault of those trying to keep the UK in? It’s just more attempts of deflecting the blame away from those responsible for the mess. Also, the UK could have left by now but it got rejected by Brexiteers too.

 

[Grendel]

Can you show the working out of your 'fact'?

It’s a silly graph from a discredited poll

Poll yesterday showed more people think we will be better with a hard Brexit than a Corbyn government - always depends on how the question is asked

 

[Sick Boy]

Technically we beat Bolton 3-0.

Technically they don't have to listen to any retrospective laws. Like the one that says there can't be a no deal.

Yes it is all a joke. But technicalities will not get us out of this mess. Just about all the politicians involved said they would respect the result. They are all on record as saying so. Tell me what you think it will do to politics in the UK if not followed through. England was the big leave vote. If minds have changed then so be it. But it isn't easy to come to a democratic result in an undemocratic way.

Leave will be shit. Remain will be shit. Leave with or without a deal will be shit. So the final result will be shit whatever. And this is most probably why Labour are trying to get through it without saying too much. No technicalities required for this.

Technically we drew 0-0 with Bolton. I think long term we will see the break up of the UK as it is now.

As I said though, once people start losing rights it will end up getting nasty. I also agree with not following through with the result and the problems it would create, personally I think remain would win another referendum but only just.

As I said, it’s damaged the country for decades and having someone like Johnson in power at this time is only going to make it worse.

 

[skybluetony176]

Poll yesterday showed more people think we will be better with a hard Brexit than a Corbyn government

That’s not proof though that hard brexit is preferable than leave with a deal or EEA. Which is the point.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Don't talk to me about shit. I went to Whitley Abbey in the 1970's. That's real shit.

I went to Whitley Abbey in the late '50s and early '60s. It was fine then.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I’m not saying there won’t be riots or whatever but even the governments own analysis shows any amount of rioting is not going to be a patch on no deal ramifications.


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Rioting isn't really going to be the real problem. It's the political vacuum left open by the betrayal of millions of people . Most won't do riots but they will be extremely angry. Does everyone want the growth of extreme far right support the like of which we haven't seen before ? No, but the political climate will be just right for it. That's the real worry of denying 17 million their democratic right. That's what everyone should be worried about.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Right now I’d settle for a leave only referendum if it means we can move forward. EEA vs Canada vs Hard Brexit. Winner takes all.

Fair play Tony, we don’t agree a lot on this thread but I think we are of a similar mindset here....just get something done and move forward (even though I believe it would be anti democratic, Id even accept another in/out referendum if it guaranteed we could do this !)

Another extension/second ref campaign fills me with dread though

Ps this ‘advisory’ argument is rubbish, everyone knew the result would be implemented. It was sold as a once in a generation/lifetime vote, that would be respected

 

[djr8369]

Rioting isn't really going to be the real problem. It's the political vacuum left open by the betrayal of millions of people . Most won't do riots but they will be extremely angry. Does everyone want the growth of extreme far right support the like of which we haven't seen before ? No, but the political climate will be just right for it. That's the real worry of denying 17 million their democratic right. That's what everyone should be worried about.

I don’t disagree that will be a problem but it’s a problem to some extent already. Also, what do you think will happen when people are losing their jobs because of no deal, they will go to extremism.

Basically the choice is piss of half the country while remaining in the E.U. and keeping everything the same or piss of half the country while devastating the economy and being in a worse position to deal with the ramifications.

Whatever happens the extremists are setting themselves up to grow from it. Look at the language being used. Anything will be a “betrayal” carried out by “traitors”. Even if there was a hard Brexit it would be the same. Any negative affects will be blamed on the E.U. and remainers, it’s already happening.

The mistake has been there hasn’t been enough push back against these people. Instead the media gives them a voice and the government dance to their tune because the tories are so scared of losing voters. I think it’s already too late to stop the rise of extremism.


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[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I don’t disagree that will be a problem but it’s a problem to some extent already. Also, what do you think will happen when people are losing their jobs because of no deal, they will go to extremism.

Basically the choice is piss of half the country while remaining in the E.U. and keeping everything the same or piss of half the country while devastating the economy and being in a worse position to deal with the ramifications.

Whatever happens the extremists are setting themselves up to grow from it. Look at the language being used. Anything will be a “betrayal” carried out by “traitors”. Even if there was a hard Brexit it would be the same. Any negative affects will be blamed on the E.U. and remainers, it’s already happening.

The mistake has been there hasn’t been enough push back against these people. Instead the media gives them a voice and the government dance to their tune because the tories are so scared of losing voters. I think it’s already too late to stop the rise of extremism.
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I don't disagree with any of what you say here.
For me the use of "betrayal" and "traitors" is a big fuss over nothing. For me the likes of Jo Swinson are attempting blatantly to prevent the democratic will of the people and so to me she is a "traitor" to the democratic principles so engrained in this country. If that makes me an extremist then I'm okay with it, me and millions of others.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The ramifications for refusing to execute the will of over 17 million voters would far outweigh the scaremongering of several years of readjustment in the economic world after Brexit.
On the riots front, do you think there'll be a few skirmishes in Trafalgar square one sunny afternoon and it will then all be forgotten about ? Do you not fear the rise of extremism as a consequence ?

I have to disagree. The potential ramifications for leaving are absolutely massive. Just in the few months during transition deaths could be up thousands due to drugs not being able to be delivered on time. Then there are the economic ramifications due to trade, such as tariffs and the probable ramifications in the currency/stock exchange which could impact people's savings and pensions, whilst also potentially putting jobs at risk as company value and investments shrink and thus cannot raise as much credit or have to belt tighten due to reduced cash. I think food wise it's a bit alarmist and food will be available just maybe not as much choice and variety as before, although prices will almost certainty rise and with the jobs/economic impact mentioned above.

If you really think many many more will die and be grossly affected because of people rioting because they're unhappy that Brexit hasn't happened then frankly you need to ask about the mindset of the people wanting it - that kind of behaviour by other groups of people would be called terrorism.

 

[djr8369]

I don't disagree with any of what you say here.
For me the use of "betrayal" and "traitors" is a big fuss over nothing. For me the likes of Jo Swinson are attempting blatantly to prevent the democratic will of the people and so to me she is a "traitor" to the democratic principles so engrained in this country. If that makes me an extremist then I'm okay with it, me and millions of others.

I wouldn’t say that makes you an extremist but that that language is being used to flame extremism.

I’d also disagree with you on a point. If the argument is what the democratic principles engrained in this country are then those principles are parliamentary democracy and not refendrums (or referenda). Also, Jo Swinson is trying to override the referendum via another act of democracy (her party gaining power via a GE) and it’s fine to disagree with that tactic but I don’t think you can fairly argue that makes her a traitor.

In my opinion the biggest traitor in all this is Farage. Somebody who seems to be handing out petrol and matches while trying to line his own pockets during the chaos.


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[Astute]

How is it the fault of those trying to keep the UK in? It’s just more attempts of deflecting the blame away from those responsible for the mess. Also, the UK could have left by now but it got rejected by Brexiteers too.

Any chance of keeping to the truth?

So where have I ever tried deflecting? Shall we start off with Cameron for buying votes?

So you have now stated that the reason we are still in the EU has nothing to do with those trying to keep us in the EU.

You couldn't make it up.


Hold on. You just did make it up :smuggrin:

 

[CCFCSteve]

I have to disagree. The potential ramifications for leaving are absolutely massive. Just in the few months during transition deaths could be up thousands due to drugs not being able to be delivered on time. Then there are the economic ramifications due to trade, such as tariffs and the probable ramifications in the currency/stock exchange which could impact people's savings and pensions, whilst also potentially putting jobs at risk as company value and investments shrink and thus cannot raise as much credit or have to belt tighten due to reduced cash. I think food wise it's a bit alarmist and food will be available just maybe not as much choice and variety as before, although prices will almost certainty rise and with the jobs/economic impact mentioned above.

If you really think many many more will die and be grossly affected because of people rioting because they're unhappy that Brexit hasn't happened then frankly you need to ask about the mindset of the people wanting it - that kind of behaviour by other groups of people would be called terrorism.

To be fair though SBD, a lot of these risks could all be removed by agreeing a/the withdrawal agreement which Parliament has had three opportunities to do already. I’m finding most that are arguing vehemently against ‘No Deal’ (most MPs) actually just want to stop Brexit.

Im not saying you are but most MPs certainly are, being disingenuous. Like they were about the prorogation outrage....fuck all’s happening since their return, only 85 bothered to turn up for Goves update on No Deal planning, which they were all so concerned about (fair play to the ones that attended and actually asked questions on behalf of the country and their constituencies) and then when Johnson turned up most just wanted to point score/shout and revisit the prorogation debate rather than what happens next.

If No Deal really was the main concern, rather than an extension why not just bind Johnson to put whatever withdrawal agreement he has been agreed with the EU (if it’s only Mays, it’s Mays) back before the house again prior to 31 Oct ?

 

[Astute]

Technically we drew 0-0 with Bolton. I think long term we will see the break up of the UK as it is now.

As I said though, once people start losing rights it will end up getting nasty. I also agree with not following through with the result and the problems it would create, personally I think remain would win another referendum but only just.

As I said, it’s damaged the country for decades and having someone like Johnson in power at this time is only going to make it worse.

And that is a big point of mine.

Lets piss off half of the population by going against their wishes to have another referendum that could easily give us the same result. And we would still have about half of the population pissed off with the second result.

I suppose we could always have a third referendum.

So what do you think more referendums on the same subject will solve?

 

[Ian1779]

Fair play Tony, we don’t agree a lot on this thread but I think we are of a similar mindset here....just get something done and move forward (even though I believe it would be anti democratic, Id even accept another in/out referendum if it guaranteed we could do this !)

Another extension/second ref campaign fills me with dread though

Ps this ‘advisory’ argument is rubbish, everyone knew the result would be implemented. It was sold as a once in a generation/lifetime vote, that would be respected

A once in a lifetime vote - with back of the fag packet planning.

 

[Astute]

A once in a lifetime vote - with back of the fag packet planning.

Certainly wasn't superkings either.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

To be fair though SBD, a lot of these risks could all be removed by agreeing a/the withdrawal agreement which Parliament has had three opportunities to do already. I’m finding most that are arguing vehemently against ‘No Deal’ (most MPs) actually just want to stop Brexit.

Im not saying you are but most MPs certainly are, being disingenuous. Like they were about the prorogation outrage....fuck all’s happening since their return, only 85 bothered to turn up for Goves update on No Deal planning, which they were all so concerned about (fair play to the ones that attended and actually asked questions on behalf of the country and their constituencies) and then when Johnson turned up most just wanted to point score/shout and revisit the prorogation debate rather than what happens next.

If No Deal really was the main concern, rather than an extension why not just bind Johnson to put whatever withdrawal agreement he has been agreed with the EU (if it’s only Mays, it’s Mays) back before the house again prior to 31 Oct ?

I think we will see the WA being put back before the house prior to 31 Oct (barring VNC etc) and it will be interesting to see how all parties would react to that if the only other alternative is no deal. Some will reject it because they want no deal. I think the threat of the no deal has been required to get things moving and the reluctance of May to use it (possibly due to her being pro-Remain) really held her getting her deal through.

It has been mentioned on here how the threat of No Deal is needed to get the EU to back down and compromise, when it seems like the no deal threat is actually more about getting us to compromise and get things agreed.

I agree that it was sickening that so few MP's attended the Brexit planning update given the hoohah over Parliament being shut down. There was clearly a lot of political posturing and points scoring behind it even if IMO the prorogation had been done on false pretenses as was found.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think we will see the WA being put back before the house prior to 31 Oct (barring VNC etc) and it will be interesting to see how all parties would react to that if the only other alternative is no deal. Some will reject it because they want no deal. I think the threat of the no deal has been required to get things moving and the reluctance of May to use it (possibly due to her being pro-Remain) really held her getting her deal through.

It has been mentioned on here how the threat of No Deal is needed to get the EU to back down and compromise, when it seems like the no deal threat is actually more about getting us to compromise and get things agreed.

I agree that it was sickening that so few MP's attended the Brexit planning update given the hoohah over Parliament being shut down. There was clearly a lot of political posturing and points scoring behind it even if IMO the prorogation had been done on false pretenses as was found.

Spot on SBD ! I’ve always thought the same, No Deals needed to be on the table as much for getting MPs to pull their fingers out and make a decision (extension is not a decision !) as trying to squeeze something out of the EU.

By all account Johnson will be putting legal text regarding backstop replacement to EU end of next week. I hope it’s well received. If so, I doubt any/all the ERG will be happy as very little else will change with the WA (I said before and even at the time of the rejections, remove the ‘risk’ of a never ending backstop and it’s a decent compromise) but if the outside chance of No Deal is still there, enough MPs might support to negate ERGs ideological idiocy !!!

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

If you really think many many more will die and be grossly affected because of people rioting because they're unhappy that Brexit hasn't happened then frankly you need to ask about the mindset of the people wanting it - that kind of behaviour by other groups of people would be called terrorism.

As I said, I don't think riots are the issue. I don't know anyone interested in smashing up anywhere if we don't leave, but do you really think if Brexit is cancelled there won't be a backlash ? Terrorism ? Hardly. The IRA are terrorists.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

As I said, I don't think riots are the issue. I don't know anyone interested in smashing up anywhere if we don't leave, but do you really think if Brexit is cancelled there won't be a backlash ? Terrorism ? Is that what's happening in Hong Kong ?

I'm not saying there won't be a backlash, I'm saying any backlash will not have as far reaching effects. There is a reasonably high probability that people will die due to problems as a direct result of Brexit. I would expect some rioting and damage to property/looting but I don't expect any backlash to have anything like that in terms of casualties.

In my worst case scenario some absolute extremists may well try to kill others (MP's the most likely targets) and yes in those instances it would be classed as terrorism, just as the murder of Jo Cox was.

But even then I expect the number of casualties to be very small and will be dwarfed by those brought about by Brexit related issues.

After a quick Google the number of confirmed deaths from HK is 8, apparently suicides (although I am going to take that with a slight pinch of salt given the history of China in such circumstances even though it is autonomous.

 

[shmmeee]

To be fair though SBD, a lot of these risks could all be removed by agreeing a/the withdrawal agreement which Parliament has had three opportunities to do already. I’m finding most that are arguing vehemently against ‘No Deal’ (most MPs) actually just want to stop Brexit.

Im not saying you are but most MPs certainly are, being disingenuous. Like they were about the prorogation outrage....fuck all’s happening since their return, only 85 bothered to turn up for Goves update on No Deal planning, which they were all so concerned about (fair play to the ones that attended and actually asked questions on behalf of the country and their constituencies) and then when Johnson turned up most just wanted to point score/shout and revisit the prorogation debate rather than what happens next.

If No Deal really was the main concern, rather than an extension why not just bind Johnson to put whatever withdrawal agreement he has been agreed with the EU (if it’s only Mays, it’s Mays) back before the house again prior to 31 Oct ?

That’s a fair point. Kinnocks amendment making the house vote on Mays deal again passed by accident didn’t it? What happened to that? Shouldn’t there be a vote on it soon? Or was it taken out somehow?

 

[shmmeee]

Can you show the working out of your 'fact'?

The word fact doesn’t appear in my post but I assume you mean my assertion that only 25-30% back no deal.

Do voters support a no-deal Brexit?

When you dig into the polls only about half the Leavers really want no deal and another quarter would accept it but don’t think it’s a good outcome.

 

[Grendel]

The word fact doesn’t appear in my post but I assume you mean my assertion that only 25-30% back no deal.

Do voters support a no-deal Brexit?

When you dig into the polls only about half the Leavers really want no deal and another quarter would accept it but don’t think it’s a good outcome.

But the majority of the country believe it’s the better option than a Corbyn government

 

[Astute]

The word fact doesn’t appear in my post but I assume you mean my assertion that only 25-30% back no deal.

Do voters support a no-deal Brexit?

When you dig into the polls only about half the Leavers really want no deal and another quarter would accept it but don’t think it’s a good outcome.

Anyone can find a poll to back up what they say. Like you finding one where Labour are level with the Tories.

The problem is that millions of people are just highly pissed off with the whole thing and want it over in whatever way. This includes no deal. And this also includes those who voted remain. They just want it done. But of course if you give choices you get different answers.

But also the link you provided shows 38% would support a no deal. A fair bit higher than you quoted and I questioned.

 

[djr8369]

The word fact doesn’t appear in my post but I assume you mean my assertion that only 25-30% back no deal.

Do voters support a no-deal Brexit?

When you dig into the polls only about half the Leavers really want no deal and another quarter would accept it but don’t think it’s a good outcome.

When he asked for the facts I don’t think he actually wanted to see them.


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