The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (78 Viewers)

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As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%

  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Do I really need to post “in my opinion” on every post in a forum or can I assume a basic level of intelligence in my readers?

If BoJo wants a deal there’s several he could’ve gone for. There’s enough support for Mays revised deal. Instead he’s put forward a proposal literally everyone knew would be rejected because he needs to be seen by the low information voter to have “tried”.
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Is that correct though Shmmeee ? Mays deal been rejected three times and whilst some labour MPs have indicated they would now support, I’m not sure it would get through

To be fair I also think a lot of people are forgetting how the EU negotiators commented on the WA. A reminder (click link - it’s not porn honest...not sure why it doesnt indicate the article name)

Yahoo is now part of Verizon Media

Whether in jest or not, it doesn’t help addressing the argument/concerns that the EU would keep us in a CU for longer than is necessary...having to accept changes in trade laws that could be detrimental to the UK.

I’ve always said Mays deal is a fair compromise, other than addressing the indefinite nature of the backstop (I also appreciate sticking a time limit on it won’t work, hence I’m not as negative about Johnson trying to deliver an alternative solution even if it may upset others)
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Ps just heard that a Scottish court (I think) has released that the letters requesting an extension have already been prepared and will be released on 19th in any event

I mean FFS, I give up. At least see if he gets anywhere before removing any semblance of leverage (to get deal done...not wider leverage re: threat to No deal)...what a joke

This is live news so may be superseded or be incorrect !!! Get my caveat in early !!!
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Ps just heard that a Scottish court (I think) has released that the letters requesting an extension have already been prepared and will be released on 19th in any event

I mean FFS, I give up. At least see if he gets anywhere before removing any semblance of leverage (to get deal done...not wider leverage re: threat to No deal)...what a joke

This is live news so may be superseded or be incorrect !!! Get my caveat in early !!!
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Come on Steve, you're not stupid. The threat of no deal has existed for 3 years, it is not a lever.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Come on Steve, you're not stupid. The threat of no deal has existed for 3 years, it is not a lever.
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Some may beg to differ Fernando !

I meant Johnson was positioning it as ‘lets get something done now or else’ - whether people believe he would proceed with no deal or not is another question....MPs obviously believed him....unless they are just trying to stop Brexit altogether - I wouldn’t like to comment ; )

By being forced to request an extension there is no need for urgency form the EUs perspective or to even negotiate and as I’ve said before, it gives the EU the whip hand as they can dictate length and possibly terms of extension (if they so wish). Crazy !
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Some may beg to differ Fernando !

I meant Johnson was positioning it as ‘lets get something done now or else’ - whether people believe he would proceed with no deal or not is another question....MPs obviously believed him....unless they are just trying to stop Brexit altogether - I wouldn’t like to comment ; )

By being forced to request an extension there is no need for urgency form the EUs perspective or to even negotiate and as I’ve said before, it gives the EU the whip hand as they can dictate length and possibly terms of extension (if they so wish). Crazy !
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Boris was, as ever, playing to the crowd as I said earlier.

By being forced to request an extension there is no need for urgency form the EUs perspective or to even negotiate and as I’ve said before, it gives the EU the whip hand as they can dictate length and possibly terms of extension (if they so wish).
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The legislation (Benn Burt) only provides provision for them to define an alternative date. There is nothing about them dictating the terms of the extension, it will still be under Article 50 of the TEU.

I don't really think it's in the EU's interests to continue the impasse for too long, so I think your worries are probably unfounded. They might even say that they will not agree to an extension at all.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
They might even say that they will not agree to an extension at all.
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Well if that happens then at least the Brexit cult will still have the EU to blame even though they get red faced and frothy mouthed when it’s suggested that leaving without a deal is the stupidest of stupidest ideas. #WEKNOWWHATWEVOTEDFOR!!
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
Boris was, as ever, playing to the crowd as I said earlier.



The legislation (Benn Burt) only provides provision for them to define an alternative date. There is nothing about them dictating the terms of the extension, it will still be under Article 50 of the TEU.

I don't really think it's in the EU's interests to continue the impasse for too long, so I think your worries are probably unfounded. They might even say that they will not agree to an extension at all.
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I’m reassured, thank you Fernando ; )

Sorry, you are correct, I should’ve just said length, however, what’s to say the EU won’t turn around and say, for example...we’ll give you an extension but you need to have a second referendum ?! Point remains the same though, we pay around £1bn in the pot so any delay is still significant (appreciate this is likely to be knocked off the transition period part of the divorce bill but who knows as that may have to be extended now)

Agree that this mess is no good for anyone (and Macron is unlikely to agree to a long extension) but as parliament struggled for some time now, god knows what everyone considers to be a ‘sensible’ extension
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
I’m reassured, thank you Fernando ; )

Sorry, you are correct, I should’ve just said length, however, what’s to say the EU won’t turn around and say, for example...we’ll give you an extension but you need to have a second referendum ?! Point remains the same though, we pay around £1bn in the pot so any delay is still significant (appreciate this is likely to be knocked off the transition period part of the divorce bill but who knows as that may have to be extended now)

Agree that this mess is no good for anyone (and Macron is unlikely to agree to a long extension) but as parliament struggled for some time now, god knows what everyone considers to be a ‘sensible’ extension
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Given all that I think they'll probably just agree to the 31st January tbh rather than fuck about
 
D

djr8369

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
I’m reassured, thank you Fernando ; )

Sorry, you are correct, I should’ve just said length, however, what’s to say the EU won’t turn around and say, for example...we’ll give you an extension but you need to have a second referendum ?! Point remains the same though, we pay around £1bn in the pot so any delay is still significant (appreciate this is likely to be knocked off the transition period part of the divorce bill but who knows as that may have to be extended now)

Agree that this mess is no good for anyone (and Macron is unlikely to agree to a long extension) but as parliament struggled for some time now, god knows what everyone considers to be a ‘sensible’ extension
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Remember the E.U. have to be careful not to upset U.K. voters and be seen as reasonable so they won’t ask for anything crazy. They might say if an extension is to be above a certain length then it needs to be for an election or referendum (think they have said words to that effect before).

That said they probably won’t give a really short extension either as it wouldn’t be enough time to achieve anything. Recall that regarding the current extension they said “don’t waste it”. Well the tories wasted almost all of it with an leadership race and then their legal shenanigans and have achieved nothing except to nominate a divide PM who will only make things worse. What I’m saying is they effectively need to give a similar length extension again as we’ve done nothing with the current one.


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C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
djr8369 said:
Remember the E.U. have to be careful not to upset U.K. voters and be seen as reasonable so they won’t ask for anything crazy. They might say if an extension is to be above a certain length then it needs to be for an election or referendum (think they have said words to that effect before).

That said they probably won’t give a really short extension either as it wouldn’t be enough time to achieve anything. Recall that regarding the current extension they said “don’t waste it”. Well the tories wasted almost all of it with an leadership race and then their legal shenanigans and have achieved nothing except to nominate a divide PM who will only make things worse. What I’m saying is they effectively need to give a similar length extension again as we’ve done nothing with the current one.


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Agreed, it has been wasted, I can’t believe Hammond/May slowed no deal planning for starters....again, crazy !
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
FWIW I don’t think a hard border would be a return to the Troubles, I think people have moved on. But it would be crap for the Irish and I don’t think the Brexiters want to take any flack for that.

I don’t like hard Brexit for a host of reasons, but it is an option if Brexiters want it.
CCFCSteve said:
Is that correct though Shmmeee ? Mays deal been rejected three times and whilst some labour MPs have indicated they would now support, I’m not sure it would get through

To be fair I also think a lot of people are forgetting how the EU negotiators commented on the WA. A reminder (click link - it’s not porn honest...not sure why it doesnt indicate the article name)

Yahoo is now part of Verizon Media

Whether in jest or not, it doesn’t help addressing the argument/concerns that the EU would keep us in a CU for longer than is necessary...having to accept changes in trade laws that could be detrimental to the UK.

I’ve always said Mays deal is a fair compromise, other than addressing the indefinite nature of the backstop (I also appreciate sticking a time limit on it won’t work, hence I’m not as negative about Johnson trying to deliver an alternative solution even if it may upset others)
Click to expand...

The deal May negotiated with Labour For A Deal was never voted on. Also several MPs who voted against MV3 have stated they’d change their mind now.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
FWIW I don’t think a hard border would be a return to the Troubles, I think people have moved on.
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Normally agree with most of what you say shmmeee but you’re wrong on this one. It’s ramping up already, there’s the new IRA, the troubles in Derry including the murder of a journalist and a whole new generation of people in the historical flashpoints unemployed (only expected to grow in numbers following Brexit of any description), bored , felling left behind when they look at the dinosaurs of the DUP and then look at the south, see their rights diminished by Brexit etc etc. and that’s before you even get into the fact that a lot of the historical trouble has never ended, so called mercy beatings, knee cappings etc from the people who never stopped certain practices regardless of the GFA.

The peace in Northern Ireland has always been fragile and it doesn’t take a lot to break it.
 
Alan Dugdales Moustache

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
Well if that happens then at least the Brexit cult will still have the EU to blame even though they get red faced and frothy mouthed when it’s suggested that leaving without a deal is the stupidest of stupidest ideas. #WEKNOWWHATWEVOTEDFOR!!
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Do they ? Or do people like you like to talk endless crap for the sake of it ?
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
skybluetony176 said:
Normally agree with most of what you say shmmeee but you’re wrong on this one. It’s ramping up already, there’s the new IRA, the troubles in Derry including the murder of a journalist and a whole new generation of people in the historical flashpoints unemployed (only expected to grow in numbers following Brexit of any description), bored , felling left behind when they look at the dinosaurs of the DUP and then look at the south, see their rights diminished by Brexit etc etc. and that’s before you even get into the fact that a lot of the historical trouble has never ended, so called mercy beatings, knee cappings etc from the people who never stopped certain practices regardless of the GFA.

The peace in Northern Ireland has always been fragile and it doesn’t take a lot to break it.
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Yeah I’ll be honest it’s more hope than expectation, but really? Do you think there’ll be the same vitriol with these circumstances? God I hope not.

I’ll defer to you as you almost certainly know more than me. But I find proper political violence supported by the majority so alien in 21st century Britain.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Do they ? Or do people like you like to talk endless crap for the sake of it ?
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They really do. I’m having a running (friendly) battle with a Brexiter on FB and the idea that we shouldn’t no deal is taken as an affront to democracy and tantamount to cancelling Brexit. The rhetoric is ridiculous.
 
Alan Dugdales Moustache

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
They really do. I’m having a running (friendly) battle with a Brexiter on FB and the idea that we shouldn’t no deal is taken as an affront to democracy and tantamount to cancelling Brexit. The rhetoric is ridiculous.
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I know. I have the same hysteria with remainers who are contemplating suicide at the very though of any "deal" whatsoever . It's just too much to bear.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Yeah I’ll be honest it’s more hope than expectation, but really? Do you think there’ll be the same vitriol with these circumstances? God I hope not.

I’ll defer to you as you almost certainly know more than me. But I find proper political violence supported by the majority so alien in 21st century Britain.
Click to expand...

There’s a guy in Derry who’s name totally escapes me at the moment, if he’s in his early twenties that’s all he is and he is to the New IRA what Sinn Féin was to the Provisional IRA. Anyhow, he’s garnering a fair following amongst teenagers and twenty somethings. He’s always proper angry looking and has nothing but contempt for the U.K. and any authority figures linked to it.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
This is perfect:

3706B8BC-EEB4-4927-8283-114BDFCEEE55.jpeg

skybluetony176 said:
There’s a guy in Derry who’s name totally escapes me at the moment, if he’s in his early twenties that’s all he is and he is to the New IRA what Sinn Féin was to the Provisional IRA. Anyhow, he’s garnering a fair following amongst teenagers and twenty somethings. He’s always proper angry looking and has nothing but contempt for the U.K. and any authority figures linked to it.
Click to expand...

To be honest, reading that I was ready to be dismissive. But then remembered what impact a couple of angry young men and a YouTube channel can have these days. Hmmmm. I really hope we don’t find out.
 
D

djr8369

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
FWIW I don’t think a hard border would be a return to the Troubles, I think people have moved on. But it would be crap for the Irish and I don’t think the Brexiters want to take any flack for that.

I don’t like hard Brexit for a host of reasons, but it is an option if Brexiters want it.


The deal May negotiated with Labour For A Deal was never voted on. Also several MPs who voted against MV3 have stated they’d change their mind now.
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Regarding the troubles it’s a tough call. I’d say there’s certainly less appetite for it but then it only takes a minority to kick it off. Also, don’t underestimate the organised crime aspect who sow chaos for their own ends.


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chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
To be honest, reading that I was ready to be dismissive. But then remembered what impact a couple of angry young men and a YouTube channel can have these days. Hmmmm. I really hope we don’t find out.
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That's going to be the problem. You only need a handful of people to start whipping things up and things will rapidly escalate.
 
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