Astute
Well-Known Member
Of course it isn't. They feel brave on here when they have a keyboard to hide behind.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (124 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
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SkyBlueDom26
Well-Known Member
Sums up this thread
Astute
Well-Known Member
And it is always the same suspects. Not seen any insults since I reblocked those who think it is OK to throw insults around when they are wrong. Have had children for a lot if years so I know how to deal with childish behaviour. Only the ignore route seems to work. That will do nicely.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Even the EU says Switzerland has a unique deal with them. A deal they are not willing to offer anyone else. It is only the uneducated/clueless/liars that say differently when caught out.
Its a deal on the transition period and starting point for negotiating the future arrangements but sure.
Point still still stands though. Yes we could have our own deal but we’d have to do the same as Switz and Norway, opt for some of the off the shelf components. This has been ruled out by most leavers even though it was the platform they won the ref on and the Tory red lines make any of those off the shelf aspect impractical.
So I don’t really understand your original question of if the Swiss have their own deal why can’t we?
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that we shouldn't look at making a deal because most leavers say so?
If we are to make a deal of some sort it will have to be like something nobody else has unless it includes everything that Ireland needs to continue as it does now. That would be close to full membership if not full membership. And this doesn't go with what most leavers or the Tories say either.
Ignore what you want and look at the logic of the situation. You will understand where I am coming from most of the time then. The problem is that you will get a few idiots calling you a leaver and will insult you for no reason.
No I’m not saying we shouldn’t look at making a deal. I’m looking at the logic of the situation, as you suggest, and my conclusion is that a deal probably isn’t possible until one or more Tory red lines are dropped and somebody is honest with voters and makes them understand we will have to compromise on something. Unfortunately this won’t happen while we have fantasists running government.
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Personally I call people out in real life as well when they spout nonsense.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Fine. Let’s join EFTA like Switzerland and remain in the single market and join Schengen like Switzerland and hand over control of our borders allowing free movement of people like Switzerland. I’m sure the Brexit cult will be begging for May’s deal after that.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Only I’ve met loads of people on here in person including Grendull and I’ve never changed my approach on here towards any of them since meeting them. Especially true of Grendull.
Astute
Well-Known Member
And where is that different to what I have said in the past? The main part we disagree on is however crap our cards are they keep getting shown to the EU as unusable for whatever reason. All they have done so far is sit back and watch catastrophe after catastrophe. The problem is that nobody is strong enough to push anything through.
We will have to either compromise or leave without a trade deal. And I honestly don't think anyone who has a say in matters wants to leave without a trade deal. The problem is that the EU doesn't want to show their hand when they don't have to. They have the top hand but don't want the losing hand to leave the table as they want to keep taking winnings in the future.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sums up this thread
Great isn’t it?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Paranoid nonsense. We know the EUs hand, they know ours. It’s all out in the open when it comes to trade and regulations.
We insist on asking the EU to compromise their customs union because we don’t want to accept that leaving the CU fucks NI. If we could get past that we’d have been out ages ago. There’s no majority for leaving the CU, and the government has no majority to force it though. And the government won’t be honest because they want to gain a majority and if they were honest about their plans they wouldn’t.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Paranoid nonsense? Would you like to explain?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This idea that the EU are trying to fuck us and we just need more leverage.
The issue is that we are asking for the impossible, not that the EU are playing hardball.
Looks like he’s decided to try and do without the DUP and put a border in the Irish Sea. I can’t see the Stormont veto getting past the Irish, but there might be some compromise there. This could have been done years ago, we have always been the blocker.
Indeed, I was about to pose the question if there’s been a breakthrough who has he thrown under the bus. My guess would be the DUP.
I’m sure it will be spun as a victory for BJ and he’s the man who unlocked the situation and got things moving and lead to the tories gaining a few votes in the election though.
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
We obviously aren't otherwise they wouldn't have come up with the first WA...& finally found something Eire at least appear willing to explore.
And they HAVE played hardball in many people's opinion. They want to send subtle warnings to other nations not to do the same. Whether they will or not at some future point we shall have have to wait and see.
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
So he has to accept all the criticism for what has not happened, what negative stuff has been said/happened, but cannot be allowed any praise for what, if it works, WILL have unlocked the situation and got things moving?
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It depends on what has unlocked the situation. If he’s gone for a border in the Irish Sea then he’s done what everyone has been saying for 3 years, made a compromise instead of pretending we can have it all our own way. It’s also the solution that was first proposed by the EU until we suggested the backstop.
We won’t know until we hear more. My point though was that he’ll most likely have to throw somebody under the bus and most likely it will be some version of a solution that was already known but be spun as something he’s achieved due to all the bravado since he came in.
All this noise they’ve made, all this show of strength is meaningless. It’s not there to create leverage or force the EU to make a concession. It’s there to make the public think that so BJ looks strong before an election takes place. People called this months ago.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Can’t see that. Arlene Foster came out of a meeting the other week with Boris all smiles claiming it to be a successful and productive meeting and we all know that she won’t accept May’s deal Mk1 of a border in the Irish Sea as Northern Ireland must be on the same footing as the rest of the U.K.. Unless it’s equal rights for the LGBT community and women. And it’s not like the PM has a history of agreeing one thing with one audience and then agreeing to the opposite with a different audience. Oh wait, the PM is Boris. Yes the PM does have that reputation.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Beat me to it. How much, if any, praise Johnson deserves will depend on what has been agreed. If, as rumoured, its a border in the Irish Sea then he deserves little praise. As djr says all he's done there is agree to what the EU proposed 3 years ago that we ruled out as it didn't meet our 'red lines'.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
But then Parliament wouldn’t be sovereign like the leave campaign campaigned for.
Probably won’t get through Parliament unless DUP agree to it so a long way to go.
For those Remainers in Parliament (and some of those on here) who insisted Johnson didn’t want a deal I hope they read the quote from Varadkar who was ‘absolutely convinced’ that Johnson wanted to strike a deal.
Doubt any humble pie will be eaten and theyll move away from the ‘he wants to take us out on a catastrophic no deal’ narrative onto something else
love him or hate him, and for all the flack he has taken, from day one the steps he has taken have been to try to get a deal agreed and through Parliament.....whether it can happen at this late hour remains to be seen
ps I hadn’t read all the posts but I see the narrative has changed already :emoji_joy:
no, a lot called that he wanted to take us out on a No Deal and his proposals proved he wasn’t serious
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
you can't really blame people for not believing Johnson, he is a proven serial liar. The boy who cried wolf and all that.
Yes there were a range of opinions. Please note that the government has been saying they’re ready for no deal and saying they’d do it if they couldn’t get a deal so that’s a perfectly reasonable conclusion.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
If the stories being reported are true all he’s done is come back with May’s Mk1 deal, which he himself didn’t want. Originally. In the words of May nothing has changed.
Still trying to get a deal though Tony...however bad it might be (I’m not trying to justify what deal he might have agreed, I’m talking about the nonsense that he wanted to take us out without one)
still might have to happen but that is/was not his primary intention
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But if he was trying to get a deal through why didn't he vote for it the first time round when May presented it?
Its not really nonsense though is it, the government has gone out of its way to normalise no deal.
Anyway, there seems to be progress towards a deal of some kind which is great news.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t be so sure Steve. I think Parliament has forced his hand and made him do his job and the best (if the reports are true) he can do is resurrect a deal that’s already been rejected. If I was being cynical I would say it suits his real strategy of taking us out without a deal by presenting a deal he cast iron knows will be rejected so he can move onto doing what he wants to do.
Of course the reports could be wrong and he has actually thrashed out a new deal but I’ll believe that when I see it.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Out of intrest is there any reason that Varadkar saying Johnson wants a deal carries more weight than those involved who have said he doesn't want a deal?
Otis
Well-Known Member
I guess because deep down he (like many others) was concerned about the indefinite nature of the backstop
I’m talking about post becoming PM and then again after his first proposal, when many suggested he was pursuing a No Deal as his primary option.
Why people don’t just hold their hands up say, fair play, don’t like him, don’t like Brexit at all but i was wrong, I don’t know.