The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (60 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

The best reason not to go to an election. One day it'll catch up on him, and I'd rather he didn't have the majority of a five year term left when it does! Let him own his decisions, let him stand by them and deal with the consequences of them.

I agree but Lib Dem’s and SNP have decided they can make gains and want that more than anything else. Lib Dem’s probably because they support Tory policy anyway and SNP because it’ll make independence more likely.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

So try being realistic. Scotland, Ireland and Wales are ruled by England. They don't have enough seats to do anything unless they join a main party based in England. That is why some want independence.

I voted to keep the UK intact 5 years ago and can't help but feel that was a waste of time. So many Leave voters who wave Union Jacks would gladly see the Union break apart to flip off Brussels. While the Scottish nationalists want to flip off England but stay attached to Brussels.

UK politics is broken

 

[Astute]

It appear that those who voted leave are okay to be classed as ignorant on here . but that's okay......dude.

There is many who voted leave that are ignorant. The same goes for those who voted remain. It is easy to see who they are.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It appear that those who voted leave are okay to be classed as ignorant on here . but that's okay......dude.

Clearly not

 

[shmmeee]

So why can't they even force across a deal which would mean leaving? I have lost count of MP's that have resigned/left so they can have their say. And most have ended up with the Lib Dems. Yet they still can't force it over the line. If this 70/30 Parliament split was on the side if leave we would have left ages ago.

As I’ve been saying for ages. If May (or Johnson) had reached out with commitments on workers rights and frictionless trade they’d have had the votes from Labour years ago. Instead they thought they could break Labour strongholds in the North by painting them as anti Brexit.

 

[Astute]

The best reason not to go to an election. One day it'll catch up on him, and I'd rather he didn't have the majority of a five year term left when it does! Let him own his decisions, let him stand by them and deal with the consequences of them.

This is all the consequences of Cameron buying votes. And the EU making a statement just a couple of days before the referendum.

 

[shmmeee]

I voted to keep the UK intact 5 years ago and can't help but feel that was a waste of time. So many Leave voters who wave Union Jacks would gladly see the Union break apart to flip off Brussels. While the Scottish nationalists want to flip off England but stay attached to Brussels.

UK politics is broken

Not just the UK. This shit is happening all over the place.

 

[Astute]

I agree but Lib Dem’s and SNP have decided they can make gains and want that more than anything else. Lib Dem’s probably because they support Tory policy anyway and SNP because it’ll make independence more likely.

The Lib Dems have made massive gains. They were finished after getting into bed with the Tories. But will it end up getting them many seats?

 

[shmmeee]

The Lib Dems have made massive gains. They were finished after getting into bed with the Tories. But will it end up getting them many seats?

Yeah. There’s a large continent of Tory remainers who would rather be dead than vote for Corbyn.

 

[Astute]

I voted to keep the UK intact 5 years ago and can't help but feel that was a waste of time. So many Leave voters who wave Union Jacks would gladly see the Union break apart to flip off Brussels. While the Scottish nationalists want to flip off England but stay attached to Brussels.

UK politics is broken

Has been broken for years. We have had a Tory government or a Labour government that styled themselves on the Tories most of my life. And I'm not exactly a youngster.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I agree but Lib Dem’s and SNP have decided they can make gains and want that more than anything else. Lib Dem’s probably because they support Tory policy anyway and SNP because it’ll make independence more likely.

SNP might still be prepared to wait for that very reason.

It is very much be careful what you wish for though. Throwing DUP under the bus makes increased Sinn Fein representation more likely, and if the ties that bind NI and (particularly) Scotland are loosened, expect a surge from Plaid Cymru further down the line.

And then we'll have a very English Brexit. It seems many are prepared to sacrifice the union for Brexit and, for the life of me, I can't see why. I'm not even talking politicians either (I can see why in the short term it might favour the Tories, although medium term there'd be a correction).

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not just the UK. This shit is happening all over the place.

Stage 1 Flip off Europe

Stage 2 Declare to be open and outward looking to the world

Stage 3 Pork Pies to the Yanks

 

[Deleted member 5849]

This is all the consequences of Cameron buying votes.

Cameron will go down in history, for sure. And not in a good way!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Has been broken for years. We have had a Tory government or a Labour government that styled themselves on the Tories most of my life. And I'm not exactly a youngster.

The people who claim to be the most patriotic Britons are those making the break up of the country the most likely. If that is the case, who is actually putting the national interest first?

 

[shmmeee]

Has been broken for years. We have had a Tory government or a Labour government that styled themselves on the Tories most of my life. And I'm not exactly a youngster.

I think it’s bigger than that. We are witnessing a breakdown of the systems we’ve used to come to a compromise as a country. People are in their bubbles and don’t want to compromise and each bubble has a bespoke news feed that bears no relation to the other so there’s not even a set of common facts we can agree on. Add in the 24/7 reporting of every MP who farts and you’ve got a recipe for political instability. Churchill wouldn’t have lasted five minutes if Twitter and rolling news existed.

 

[Astute]

As I’ve been saying for ages. If May (or Johnson) had reached out with commitments on workers rights and frictionless trade they’d have had the votes from Labour years ago. Instead they thought they could break Labour strongholds in the North by painting them as anti Brexit.

Not at all. Labour has Corbyn. He knows that his vote base mainly went for leave. What he wants more than anything else is to become PM. He always wanted us to leave the EU. But he goes against the Tories whatever. But he also tries not to go against his vote base. So he ends up looking like a dithering idiot.

 

[shmmeee]

SNP might still be prepared to wait for that very reason.

It is very much be careful what you wish for though. Throwing DUP under the bus makes increased Sinn Fein representation more likely, and if the ties that bind NI and (particularly) Scotland are loosened, expect a surge from Plaid Cymru further down the line.

And then we'll have a very English Brexit. It seems many are prepared to sacrifice the union for Brexit and, for the life of me, I can't see why. I'm not even talking politicians either (I can see why in the short term it might favour the Tories, although medium term there'd be a correction).

Saw something earlier that SNP want an election before Salmonds trial in January. Which would explain their rush.

 

[shmmeee]

Not at all. Labour has Corbyn. He knows that his vote base mainly went for leave. What he wants more than anything else is to become PM. He always wanted us to leave the EU. But he goes against the Tories whatever. But he also tries not to go against his vote base. So he ends up looking like a dithering idiot.

Yeah but he’s also completely incapable of controlling his MPs. So his personal views are kinda irrelevant.

Most of Labours vote is Remain or doesn’t want Brexit more than they want a socialist government (Lexiters).

The Full Fact thing you posted earlier is misleading because voter behaviour in the referendum doesn’t correlate at all to GE voting.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Saw something earlier that SNP want an election before Salmonds trial in January. Which would explain their rush.

That would maybe be more understandable.

 

[Astute]

Yeah. There’s a large continent of Tory remainers who would rather be dead than vote for Corbyn.

I have voted Labour all my life. I would struggle to put my cross for Corbyn. And I know I am not alone.

So that would leave me with the Lib Dems. I would struggle even more to vote for them.

Come back please Monster Raving Looney Party. You would look very normal these days.

 

[Astute]

The people who claim to be the most patriotic Britons are those making the break up of the country the most likely. If that is the case, who is actually putting the national interest first?

Depends what your idea of national interest is. There is more than two views on the matter.

 

[shmmeee]

The people who claim to be the most patriotic Britons are those making the break up of the country the most likely. If that is the case, who is actually putting the national interest first?

As Astute has shown, these “patriots” are actually English nationalists who care not for the union.

 

[shmmeee]

I have voted Labour all my life. I would struggle to put my cross for Corbyn. And I know I am not alone.

So that would leave me with the Lib Dems. I would struggle even more to vote for them.

Come back please Monster Raving Looney Party. You would look very normal these days.

I could never vote Lib Dem (again) or Tory, I fundamentally disagree with how they want to organise the economy. Corbyns just a figurehead, like any PM he has as much power as his MPs give him and the PLP hasn’t suddenly become raving communist terrorist sympathisers or whatever it is.

 

[Astute]

Yeah but he’s also completely incapable of controlling his MPs. So his personal views are kinda irrelevant.

Most of Labours vote is Remain or doesn’t want Brexit more than they want a socialist government (Lexiters).

The Full Fact thing you posted earlier is misleading because voter behaviour in the referendum doesn’t correlate at all to GE voting.

Most Labour seats voted leave. Look at the coloured maps. Labour areas are the working class areas. The working class areas voted leave.

Or have you any slight evidence that shows this to be wrong?

Most of England voted leave. There was nearly a 2 million difference in England. Most Tory and Labour seats are in England.

 

[Grendel]

As Astute has shown, these “patriots” are actually English nationalists who care not for the union.

Well that’s certainly Jeremy Corbyn

 

[Astute]

As Astute has shown, these “patriots” are actually English nationalists who care not for the union.

I agree they don't. I don't think there would be that many upset if Scotland voted to leave the UK. We have taken most of their oil money off them. What other use do some people see them as being?

 

[Astute]

I could never vote Lib Dem (again) or Tory, I fundamentally disagree with how they want to organise the economy. Corbyns just a figurehead, like any PM he has as much power as his MPs give him and the PLP hasn’t suddenly become raving communist terrorist sympathisers or whatever it is.

So would your vote go to Corbyn?

 

[shmmeee]

Most Labour seats voted leave. Look at the coloured maps. Labour areas are the working class areas. The working class areas voted leave.

Or have you any slight evidence that shows this to be wrong?

Most of England voted leave. There was nearly a 2 million difference in England. Most Tory and Labour seats are in England.

Paywalled: Labour must challenge the myth that the working class supports Brexit

Debunking the myth that most Labour voters are “working-class Leavers”

The main point is only a max of 30% of Labour voters voted Leave and there’s no evidence it’s their top priority. When push has come to shove Labour has retained these seats so far.

 

[shmmeee]

I agree they don't. I don't think there would be that many upset if Scotland voted to leave the UK. We have taken most of their oil money off them. What other use do some people see them as being?

I don’t disagree.

 

[shmmeee]

So would your vote go to Corbyn?

I don’t live in Islington

But yes I’ll vote Labour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Depends what your idea of national interest is.

Keeping the country in one piece.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well that’s certainly Jeremy Corbyn

Make your mind up

 

[shmmeee]

Keeping the country in one piece.

Depends what your definition of “the country” is

 

[Astute]

Paywalled: Labour must challenge the myth that the working class supports Brexit

Debunking the myth that most Labour voters are “working-class Leavers”

The main point is only a max of 30% of Labour voters voted Leave and there’s no evidence it’s their top priority. When push has come to shove Labour has retained these seats so far.

They are opinion pieces without evidence. The evidence is who won what seats last time and how they voted for Brexit.

 

[shmmeee]

They are opinion pieces without evidence. The evidence is who won what seats last time and how they voted for Brexit.

Labour won Stoke.

A lot of the Brexit vote is soft. Either non voters or those with bigger priorities.