The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (80 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Struth, how ridiculous. You appear to be advocating mutiny on the job in the fire service...expecting them to go against what they have been trained & ordered to do in an emergency situation.

I was comparing the principle...which surely you can see the parallel?

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The task of a fireman facing a blaze in which he has seconds to make decisions is incomparable to a pharma sales rep deciding to offer sweeteners to doctors in order to accept their products.

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

I don't believe the tories for one minute when they say they don't want to privatise the NHS.
Every time I've heard Hunt and May or Johnson and Hancock say it isn't I believe them even less.

Each to their own

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[SkyblueBazza]

The task of a fireman facing a blaze in which he has seconds to make decisions is incomparable to a pharma sales rep deciding to offer sweeteners to doctors in order to accept their products.

The fireman carries out the orders of their chiefs who have been trained thoroughly in the operational procedures deemed to be the best option.

The parallels with any other industry for the guy at the coal-face & the powers that be deciding the best approach are oh-so relevant. Just the consequences of going against the grain differ.

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

The fireman carries out the orders of their chiefs who have been trained thoroughly in the operational procedures deemed to be the best option.

The parallels with any other industry for the guy at the coal-face & the powers that be deciding the best approach are oh-so relevant. Just the consequences of going against the grain differ.

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Absolving the sales rep on of his moral culpability on the grounds that his/her boss told them to offer bribes? OK

 

[RegTheDonk]

70bn lost

Brexit deal means ‘£70bn hit to UK by 2029'

love that experts aren’t listened to now

Genuinely keep hearing various expert departments adjusting their forecasts becuase they've got their sums wrong as things haven't panned out like they predicted. I'm not trying to be nobby, but if they can't get a 6/12 month prediction right, how they hell can they tell us what's going to happen 10 years down the line?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I don't believe the tories for one minute when they say they don't want to privatise the NHS.
Every time I've heard Hunt and May or Johnson and Hancock say it isn't I believe them even less.

Well I think you are being naive. They are actually clever people & they know it is a political hot potato. Labour do to, & discretely follow the same course as the Tories overall. They are just reassured by the expectation the Tories will be a little bolder

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[SkyblueBazza]

Absolving the sales rep on of his moral culpability on the grounds that his/her boss told them to offer bribes? OK

Well I wouldn't worry too much as the Pharma industry in the UK is policed by a very thorough & rigid regime called the PMCPA which consists of various representation from lay members to industry insiders & to staunch anti-industry qualified medics. The industry produces a code of practice aligned to their find he on reported cases & subsequent findings. Find a drug rep & ask them about it. They find it extremely restrictive on the one hand but protective (against Pharma management on the one hand & potentially disreputable medics) on the other.
Bribery in Pharma in the UK is limited to the very occasional individual who is very much at risk of exposure due to the set up of clinical practice post Shipman...whether we are talking Primary or Secondary care

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[shmmeee]

Genuinely keep hearing various expert departments adjusting their forecasts becuase they've got their sums wrong as things haven't panned out like they predicted. I'm not trying to be nobby, but if they can't get a 6/12 month prediction right, how they hell can they tell us what's going to happen 10 years down the line?

This is a bit like saying “Doctors told me I’d have six months to live, but I died after 9, so how can they say smoking gives you lung cancer”.

General trends can be extrapolated. Forecasts are updated as things become clear because all predictions contain uncertainty. Not because “they got their sums wrong”.

You don’t get to just invent your own shit because the best guesses we have aren’t perfect.

 

[shmmeee]

Well I think you are being naive. They are actually clever people & they know it is a political hot potato. Labour do to, & discretely follow the same course as the Tories overall. They are just reassured by the expectation the Tories will be a little bolder

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That’s why they do it by stealth and over time. Look at education, did any politician announce they were going to sell off schools to the highest bidder? No just one day the only choice you’ve got is academies. First it was just the bad schools cos they needed intervention, then the good so they could innovate, now pretty much every school is run by a private entity and many people don’t even realise it.

Or workers rights. It starts as “unions have too much power” in the 70s and 40 years later there’s no labour movement, wage growth has stagnated and people are atomised.

The general trend is not in the right direction.

 

[Sick Boy]

Oh so what Trump wants he gets eh? There will be something involving NHS in a general sense...but there is no way it will be at the extreme end of what you are fearing imo

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Sadly, yes.

Have you not learnt anything from the UK’s lack of power in the EU negotiations?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

That’s why they do it by stealth and over time. Look at education, did any politician announce they were going to sell off schools to the highest bidder? No just one day the only choice you’ve got is academies. First it was just the bad schools cos they needed intervention, then the good so they could innovate, now pretty much every school is run by a private entity and many people don’t even realise it.

Or workers rights. It starts as “unions have too much power” in the 70s and 40 years later there’s no labour movement, wage growth has stagnated and people are atomised.

The general trend is not in the right direction.

So it makes you wonder what the hell the EU have been doing for the last 45yrs really doesn't it?
Encouraging falsehoods to have people think they are on to a good thing obviously.

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[skybluetony176]

Looks like there’s a mass exodus of serving MP’s. Rats deserting a sinking ship and all that.

 

[skybluetony176]

So it makes you wonder what the hell the EU have been doing for the last 45yrs really doesn't it?
Encouraging falsehoods to have people think they are on to a good thing obviously.

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Don’t worry. We’re abandoning the standards set by the EU so I’m sure things will only get better. No wait. The standards set by the EU are minimum standards not the standard so our sovereign government could always have done better should they choose. Still, with that safety net gone I’m sure it will be the trigger that makes the government do what they always could have done.

 

[shmmeee]

So it makes you wonder what the hell the EU have been doing for the last 45yrs really doesn't it?
Encouraging falsehoods to have people think they are on to a good thing obviously.

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I’ll let you into a secret. I was very nearly a Lexiter for this reason. That and the corporate lobbying in Brussels. But then it’s a worldwide phenomenon so less about the EU than about the economic orthodoxy and if someone like Yanis Varoufakis can be pro EU so can I. Also so want a Nordic model which clearly is possible in the EU. Mostly I think the overall advantages are better but I’d like to see reform to make it less neoliberal.

Not sure about “falsehoods” they tend to be far more transparent and fact based than the U.K. in my experience. But that’s because in my experience European (the continent) politics is a lot more adult than U.K. politics. Answers on a postcard as to why.

 

[Astute]

Genuinely keep hearing various expert departments adjusting their forecasts becuase they've got their sums wrong as things haven't panned out like they predicted. I'm not trying to be nobby, but if they can't get a 6/12 month prediction right, how they hell can they tell us what's going to happen 10 years down the line?

They have got nearly everything wrong that is important for years. Yet we are supposed to believe everything they say.

 

[Astute]

I don't believe the tories for one minute when they say they don't want to privatise the NHS.
Every time I've heard Hunt and May or Johnson and Hancock say it isn't I believe them even less.

Neither do I.

But look at Labour. Bliar escalated privatizing the NHS. Fern tried to make out Labour didn't although he says it is the part of the NHS he works in. Then when I posted the evidence he went quiet on the subject as usual.

You can't trust any of them with the NHS. It is where they see the most savings. But it normally ends up costing us more in the long run.

 

[shmmeee]

Neither do I.

But look at Labour. Bliar escalated privatizing the NHS. Fern tried to make out Labour didn't although he says it is the part of the NHS he works in. Then when I posted the evidence he went quiet on the subject as usual.

You can't trust any of them with the NHS. It is where they see the most savings. But it normally ends up costing us more in the long run.

And what happened to Blair? His entire movement is a dirty word in Labour circles and now we have Corbyn who is a total backlash. Can’t see the Tories doing that.

Just because they aren’t all perfect doesn’t mean they’re all the same. That’s just lazy thinking.

 

[Astute]

That’s why they do it by stealth and over time. Look at education, did any politician announce they were going to sell off schools to the highest bidder? No just one day the only choice you’ve got is academies. First it was just the bad schools cos they needed intervention, then the good so they could innovate, now pretty much every school is run by a private entity and many people don’t even realise it.

Or workers rights. It starts as “unions have too much power” in the 70s and 40 years later there’s no labour movement, wage growth has stagnated and people are atomised.

The general trend is not in the right direction.

The main part on wage increases is supply and demand. There has been plenty of supply. That is why we have record employment. If companies can't get the right workers in they have to offer a higher wage.

 

[Astute]

And what happened to Blair? His entire movement is a dirty word in Labour circles and now we have Corbyn who is a total backlash. Can’t see the Tories doing that.

Just because they aren’t all perfect doesn’t mean they’re all the same. That’s just lazy thinking.

And you think Corbyn is the person to lead our country?

 

[clint van damme]

Neither do I.

But look at Labour. Bliar escalated privatizing the NHS. Fern tried to make out Labour didn't although he says it is the part of the NHS he works in. Then when I posted the evidence he went quiet on the subject as usual.

You can't trust any of them with the NHS. It is where they see the most savings. But it normally ends up costing us more in the long run.

but as Liquid gold said yesterday, whether you like him or not, Corbyns Labour is a different animal to Blairs Labour.
I trust Corbyn far more on the NHS than the Tories. There is far too much evidence of senior Tories meeting and taking payments from lobbyists.

 

[Astute]

but as Liquid gold said yesterday, whether you like him or not, Corbyns Labour is a different animal to Blairs Labour.
I trust Corbyn far more on the NHS than the Tories. There is far too much evidence of senior Tories meeting and taking payments from lobbyists.

But saying that you trust someone more than the Tories isn't saying a lot.

He isn't what I call leader material.

 

[clint van damme]

But saying that you trust someone more than the Tories isn't saying a lot.

He isn't what I call leader material.

maybe not, but I do and he'll be getting my vote as I don't trust the lib dems either. Particularly under swinson.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

And you think Corbyn is the person to lead our country?

Arguably not. But I do feel he's a better person to lead it than Alexander. With Corbyn I do feel he would genuinely want to do things he felt were to the benefit of the country, even if I think some of his ideology to achieve it is flawed, and there is the fear of the unions trying to muscle in on it.

Alexander will do what is best for himself and his posh buddies regardless. This is almost beyond question.

It's a particularly shit choice frankly, but someone will have to be chosen. Trouble is we keep on thinking we've scraped the bottom of the barrel and somehow we keep on getting people even worse. Who'd have thought Brown would look almost competent?

 

[SBAndy]

And you think Corbyn is the person to lead our country?

Do you accept it’s possible for people to not think he’s the right person for the job overall, but he is in fact the right person for the job given essentially the very small shortlist?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And you think Corbyn is the person to lead our country?

His personal flaws to one side, the policies on offer are generally a vast improvement on the alternative.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But saying that you trust someone more than the Tories isn't saying a lot.

He isn't what I call leader material.

It’s this kind of nit picking that gets us another 5 years of Porky Johnson telling and selling porkies

 

[RegTheDonk]

1 This is a bit like saying “Doctors told me I’d have six months to live, but I died after 9, so how can they say smoking gives you lung cancer”.

General trends can be extrapolated. 2 Forecasts are updated as things become clear because all predictions contain uncertainty. Not because “they got their sums wrong”.

You don’t get to just invent your own shit because the best guesses we have aren’t perfect.

1 lol great comparison - these people are predicting what the state of play is a decade down the line, not quibbling over 3 months. If I get cancer I hope I talk to that doctor, I might live for another 10 years.

2 Exactly - it could be a lot worse in 10 years OR it might not be half as bad. Nobody knows.

You're dealing with "best guesses which aren't perfect" ... not an astronmer predicting an eclipse in 10 years time to the second.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

1 lol great comparison - these people are predicting what the state of play is a decade down the line, not quibbling over 3 months. If I get cancer I hope I talk to that doctor, I might live for another 10 years.

I don't necessarily like the analogies, but one of my friends' families was given four weeks to live, and lasted seven years...

But I'd still trust the doctor's diagnosis ahead of the bloke down the pub who plays a mean trick shot on the black, after he's downed eight pints.

Oh and funnily enough my friend and his mum were delighted the doctor was so badly wrong. This is where the bollocks of Brexit comes in. if the experts are wrong, I'll be delighted. But it's a madman who ignores those trained in such things ahead of empty vacuous rhetoric.

 

[RegTheDonk]

I don't necessarily like the analogies, but one of my friends' families was given four weeks to live, and lasted seven years...

But I'd still trust the doctor's diagnosis ahead of the bloke down the pub who plays a mean trick shot on the black, after he's downed eight pints.

Oh and funnily enough my friend and his mum were delighted the doctor was so badly wrong. This is where the bollocks of Brexit comes in. if the experts are wrong, I'll be delighted. But it's a madman who ignores those trained in such things ahead of empty vacuous rhetoric.

Pleased for your friend that the expert was so wrong and apologies if you thought I was being flippent. Wish they'd be as wrong about my in-laws.

 

[shmmeee]

The main part on wage increases is supply and demand. There has been plenty of supply. That is why we have record employment. If companies can't get the right workers in they have to offer a higher wage.

Worker organisation raises wages. ‘‘Twas ever thus

 

[shmmeee]

1 lol great comparison - these people are predicting what the state of play is a decade down the line, not quibbling over 3 months. If I get cancer I hope I talk to that doctor, I might live for another 10 years.

2 Exactly - it could be a lot worse in 10 years OR it might not be half as bad. Nobody knows.

You're dealing with "best guesses which aren't perfect" ... not an astronmer predicting an eclipse in 10 years time to the second.

If I eat McDonalds for every meal I’ll gain weight. Just because I can’t give you an exact figure down to the ounce doesn’t make the principle wrong.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

They have got nearly everything wrong that is important for years. Yet we are supposed to believe everything they say.

The link I put up haven’t

 

[RegTheDonk]

If I eat McDonalds for every meal I’ll gain weight. Just because I can’t give you an exact figure down to the ounce doesn’t make the principle wrong.

Really? Can you not phone McDonalds, give them your weight, and based on their ingredients they can say how much you'll weigh in 10 years time? To the nearest stone will do.

These experts eh?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Really? Can you not phone McDonalds, give them your weight, and based on their ingredients they can say how much you'll weigh in 10 years time? To the nearest stone will do.

These experts eh?

No, because they'd need your to know your metabolic rate. They'd also need to know of any health problems/issues you have or will have in the next decade. They'd need to know how much exercise you're going to do for the next 10 years. They'd have to know that their menu wouldn't be altered in that time and change the calorific/fat/carb/sugar levels.

However I reckon 10 years of eating McDonalds every meal would actually lead to massive weight loss because you'd most probably be dead.

 

[Astute]

Do you accept it’s possible for people to not think he’s the right person for the job overall, but he is in fact the right person for the job given essentially the very small shortlist?

Are you saying that I not allowed to think that he isn't good enough to lead the UK for the only reason that the other leaders are also not good enough?