The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (40 Viewers)

[Grendel]

When you say mortgage rates do you mean interest rates?


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I mean mortgage payments - capital and interest combined

 

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[shmmeee]

The interest rate argument is so dishonest.

Yes Karen you paid 15% for a couple of years, meanwhile the value of your home increased 250%.

 

[djr8369]

I mean mortgage payments - capital and interest combined

Doesn’t contradict Astutes point about rates being a disadvantage when they were higher?

Presumably better wages compensated for the higher interest rates.


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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Are you saying that I have forgotten?

I had it really hard. That is why I don't waste my money now. Then we get Shhhmmee saying how easy we had it. Unbelievable. My eldest kid is 34 youngest is 9. I don't need telling anything. I have seen the changes. You would think with tour comment here that it is never who wants tax to be raised off the poorer of our population and not yourself.

No I’m not. What I am asking is that you look hard at the economic indicators that show it isn’t just millennials being bitchy snowflakes.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I know a 25 year old and a 29 year old at Jlr who both worked for me who are home owners - oddly they understand the word sacrifice - my daughter now has enough to get a deposit and will buy next year

I know a commercial pilot who bought a house before 25. Mind you he was on £80k

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I know a 25 year old and a 29 year old at Jlr who both worked for me who are home owners - oddly they understand the word sacrifice - my daughter now has enough to get a deposit and will buy next year

Does everyone work at JLR and get paid decent wages? And that's two - how many of that age working there didn't? What kind of wages were they on? Were they paying that mortgage purely by themselves or were the with a partner to share the cost with? Did they have an advantage of inheritance or parental help with the deposit? I can only assume they're completely socially inept because they must never leave the house.

When I was younger I was in a job with decent future prospects, had an incredibly old mobile because it was necessary for work, didn't own a car, didn't drink or smoke, rarely went out and made my own packed lunches just to save a bit of money. Never got close to a deposit out of my own pocket.

Given that imagine the people in poorly paid jobs who're renting and living off baked beans just to afford the rent? Working two jobs just to scrape by?

 

[chiefdave]

When you say mortgage rates do you mean interest rates?

At the end of the day people can talk about interest rates and percentage of income etc but most voters are going to go off their personal experience. For an ever increasing number of people finding affordable housing is an issue and that will influence their vote.

I can only look at my experience. My Dad and both Grandads all left school without a great deal of qualifications and got a trade. My Dad worked at Courtaulds, one Grandad at the Jag and one became a butcher. All jobs for life.

Off those jobs they could all afford a decent quality of life and a house. My parents bought a 3 bed in Stivichall, as did one Grandad, the other a 3 bed in a nice part of Brum (well as nice as it can be in Brum!).

I'm not saying it was never difficult and they didn't have to tighten their belts at times such as when the interest rates went up but even at those times it didn't match how tight I'm finding things and others I know are in the same situation.

Housing takes up a huge chunk of my wages. At the moment I'm renting, buying a house would reduce that amount by about a third yet when I've been applying for a mortgage recently I've been told I can't afford the repayments despite having never being late with a rent payment. To buy a 2 bed place the bank are looking for a deposit in the region of £70K to make the mortgage 'affordable'.

I'm sure there are young people who are buying houses and I'm sure there's people who waste loads of money they could be putting towards a deposit but that doesn't apply to everyone and isn't an excuse to stick two fingers up to those who are trying.

When I talked with our Conservative candidate about this she had no idea how to improve things. She is in favour of the University expanding but is against houses near the university being HMOs, she also objected to any student accommodation being built and is campaigning against new houses being built in the area!

 

[djr8369]

Does everyone work at JLR and get paid decent wages? by?

Yes, tend to be above equivalent roles elsewhere.




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[djr8369]

At the end of the day people can talk about interest rates and percentage of income etc but most voters are going to go off their personal experience. For an ever increasing number of people finding affordable housing is an issue and that will influence their vote.

I can only look at my experience. My Dad and both Grandads all left school without a great deal of qualifications and got a trade. My Dad worked at Courtaulds, one Grandad at the Jag and one became a butcher. All jobs for life.

Off those jobs they could all afford a decent quality of life and a house. My parents bought a 3 bed in Stivichall, as did one Grandad, the other a 3 bed in a nice part of Brum (well as nice as it can be in Brum!).

I'm not saying it was never difficult and they didn't have to tighten their belts at times such as when the interest rates went up but even at those times it didn't match how tight I'm finding things and others I know are in the same situation.

Housing takes up a huge chunk of my wages. At the moment I'm renting, buying a house would reduce that amount by about a third yet when I've been applying for a mortgage recently I've been told I can't afford the repayments despite having never being late with a rent payment. To buy a 2 bed place the bank are looking for a deposit in the region of £70K to make the mortgage 'affordable'.

I'm sure there are young people who are buying houses and I'm sure there's people who waste loads of money they could be putting towards a deposit but that doesn't apply to everyone and isn't an excuse to stick two fingers up to those who are trying.

When I talked with our Conservative candidate about this she had no idea how to improve things. She is in favour of the University expanding but is against houses near the university being HMOs, she also objected to any student accommodation being built and is campaigning against new houses being built in the area!

I don’t disagree I was just interested in the metric G was using.


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[chiefdave]

I don’t disagree I was just interested in the metric G was using.

Wasn't really aimed at you, just a general rant.

Not sure if its a generational thing. My Dad is convinced I should be saving hundreds every month no matter how many times I point out my salary just about covers rent, bills and food. My Mum thought I'd be able to buy a house no worries and when I pointed out there's constantly stories in the media about how hard it is she basically said she didn't believe them.

Think the older generation might just assume if we can't achieve the same standard of living they enjoyed its somehow our own fault.

 

[djr8369]

Wasn't really aimed at you, just a general rant.

Not sure if its a generational thing. My Dad is convinced I should be saving hundreds every month no matter how many times I point out my salary just about covers rent, bills and food. My Mum thought I'd be able to buy a house no worries and when I pointed out there's constantly stories in the media about how hard it is she basically said she didn't believe them.

Think the older generation might just assume if we can't achieve the same standard of living they enjoyed its somehow our own fault.

Partly because there seems to be a huge generational war being pushed as part of a wider culture war. I say pushed, it might just be a natural by product of the media looking for outrage stories to wind up their viewers/readers but if you look into it seems Russian social media accounts amplify this kind of thing and it certainly seems to be pushed hard by the American right.

I’ll give some examples, there have been a handful of features on GMB this week doing the round of social media along the lines of entitled millennials, the young not understanding history, millennials being too sensitive etc. This winds people up (of all ages) and becomes a stick to beat millennials and sometimes “the left” with, depending on the story. It’s always something ridiculous, that nobody is asking about and the person brought on to push it is a nobody. It would have no traction whatsoever if it wasn’t pushed. They never get a pensioner on to moan about something equally ridiculous or spout some casual racism.

Another example, look at the amount of high profile American YouTubers moaning about the left, SJWs or “P.C. gone mad”. It’s always something you’d never hear about if they didn’t amplify it. Half of them seem to be funded by conservative think tanks.


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[djr8369]

Wasn't really aimed at you, just a general rant.

Not sure if its a generational thing. My Dad is convinced I should be saving hundreds every month no matter how many times I point out my salary just about covers rent, bills and food. My Mum thought I'd be able to buy a house no worries and when I pointed out there's constantly stories in the media about how hard it is she basically said she didn't believe them.

Think the older generation might just assume if we can't achieve the same standard of living they enjoyed its somehow our own fault.

If only you stopped buying avocados you’d have enough for a deposit by now.

Yet various studies show young people to have less disposable income than their parents....

Another example for you.


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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Wasn't really aimed at you, just a general rant.

Not sure if its a generational thing. My Dad is convinced I should be saving hundreds every month no matter how many times I point out my salary just about covers rent, bills and food. My Mum thought I'd be able to buy a house no worries and when I pointed out there's constantly stories in the media about how hard it is she basically said she didn't believe them.

Think the older generation might just assume if we can't achieve the same standard of living they enjoyed its somehow our own fault.

I think they also forget the massive council house sell off meaning that the market is now dominated by private rental and the extra cost going with that along with the inevitable house price inflation it brought, exacerbated all the time by failure to build more homes to fill demand. To be fair it's something a lot of us will have had some hand in at some point. Selling to the highest bidder regardless of their plans, esp for properties that are part of an inheritance.

I'd love to see more council/family dual ownership to prevent family homes become B-t-L, HMO's, student accommodation etc whilst also making it affordable to younger people. By taking out those looking to buy for investment and profit it should also keep price inflation down to a degree. I'm sure Grendel thinks it's a despicable idea though.

 

[Grendel]

The interest rate argument is so dishonest.

Yes Karen you paid 15% for a couple of years, meanwhile the value of your home increased 250%.

Well that’s utter bollocks isn’t it as interest rates were substantially higher for a sustained period of time

it’s obvious you are just angry as you feel hard done to. Pathetic really.

 

[shmmeee]

The idea that the state shouldn’t build housing has a lot to answer for. It’s a solid investment and the state can borrow far cheaper and owns both land and the planning process. But then no one gets rich so here we are.

So many social problems that come with ghettoisation led by housing policy and house builders skiving off their responsibilities.

Housing is so important in so many ways and a free market approach fails spectacularly

 

[fernandopartridge]

The idea that the state shouldn’t build housing has a lot to answer for. It’s a solid investment and the state can borrow far cheaper and owns both land and the planning process. But then no one gets rich so here we are.

So many social problems that come with ghettoisation led by housing policy and house builders skiving off their responsibilities.

Housing is so important in so many ways and a free market approach fails spectacularly

Yep, free market approach has extracted money from the real economy through inflated house prices and rent and further cost the public purse through tax credits partly due to wages being insufficient to cover cost of living.
Asset price inflation was at the heart of the financial crisis yet nothing has been done to address it.

 

[clint van damme]

At the end of the day people can talk about interest rates and percentage of income etc but most voters are going to go off their personal experience. For an ever increasing number of people finding affordable housing is an issue and that will influence their vote.

I can only look at my experience. My Dad and both Grandads all left school without a great deal of qualifications and got a trade. My Dad worked at Courtaulds, one Grandad at the Jag and one became a butcher. All jobs for life.

Off those jobs they could all afford a decent quality of life and a house. My parents bought a 3 bed in Stivichall, as did one Grandad, the other a 3 bed in a nice part of Brum (well as nice as it can be in Brum!).

I'm not saying it was never difficult and they didn't have to tighten their belts at times such as when the interest rates went up but even at those times it didn't match how tight I'm finding things and others I know are in the same situation.

Housing takes up a huge chunk of my wages. At the moment I'm renting, buying a house would reduce that amount by about a third yet when I've been applying for a mortgage recently I've been told I can't afford the repayments despite having never being late with a rent payment. To buy a 2 bed place the bank are looking for a deposit in the region of £70K to make the mortgage 'affordable'.

I'm sure there are young people who are buying houses and I'm sure there's people who waste loads of money they could be putting towards a deposit but that doesn't apply to everyone and isn't an excuse to stick two fingers up to those who are trying.

When I talked with our Conservative candidate about this she had no idea how to improve things. She is in favour of the University expanding but is against houses near the university being HMOs, she also objected to any student accommodation being built and is campaigning against new houses being built in the area!

To be fair to the Tory candidate I don't think anyone knows how to sort it.
The Tories failure to build one single affordable house as per their manifesto hasn't helped but that still wouldn't have made q huge amount of difference.
It needs a long term strategy with cross party consensus, I won't hold my breath.

 

[martcov]

on this topic could argue Nazi germany did a lot of good for Germany and on balance the deaths were worth it?

no. Lost part of its country for ever. Millions of lives lost. Cities destroyed. Cultural heritage partly destroyed. Apart from the deaths: the maiming, the imprisonments, the financial losses, the General misery of lack of food, heating, medicine etc. There is no justification for hard right nationalism. It can only end in disaster. Which is one good reason for being members of a European Union. The Leader wants to knock the European Union down and revert to a system which emboldens Nazism.

 

[Astute]

What? You’re the one saying the deposit should come from having parents rich enough to have built up capital. I want it to be down to hard work and ability to earn a decent wage.

Yet again show where I have said that.

Can we keep to the truth please?

 

[Astute]

Interest rates were high for a short period. Wages to price ratio was low for far far longer. As people keep telling you, the issue is the deposit required to buy a house with prices as they are. Combined with low wages it means people can’t get on the ladder.

You keep stating blatant falsehoods despite being pulled up on it. I’ve repeatedly said I didn’t like Blair’s privatisation agenda, you liked the fricken post so you clearly read it!

What do you call high interest rates? Or do you only mean when they reached 16%?

 

[martcov]

This is such a bizarre line of argument-almost one I’d invite you to repeat on national TV

wTF? I’ve missed Grendel’s madness. He is going over the top. The West paid to upgrade the East. It’s still paying. I don’t know what that has to do with Hitler. The East was poorer and more rural before the war and will probably always be poorer because it doesn’t have the industrial capacity. More people are moving to the East than leaving since 2017, so things are changing in some cities. A major difference in future wealth is the inheritance. Billions are being inherited in the West as the older prosperous generation pass on their wealth. In the East it’s peanuts as they missed out on the good times. That is because of Stalin not Hitler.

 

[Astute]

The interest rate argument is so dishonest.

Yes Karen you paid 15% for a couple of years, meanwhile the value of your home increased 250%.

There is one big point you miss when you bring up house values. What is the use of having a house worth 250k if you never sell it? The ones who benefit the most are your generation. Not the ones who live in it until they die.

 

[shmmeee]

What do you call high interest rates? Or do you only mean when they reached 16%?

Here’s what I mean: if the average interest rate over the period of your mortgage is lower than the average annual value increase in your house: you’re winning.

 

[Astute]

Here’s what I mean: if the average interest rate over the period of your mortgage is lower than the average annual value increase in your house: you’re winning.

So you are winning just like the rest but still using it as a stick to beat those who have nothing to do with house prices or interest rates.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

wTF? I’ve missed Grendel’s madness. He is going over the top. The West paid to upgrade the East. It’s still paying. I don’t know what that has to do with Hitler. The East was poorer and more rural before the war and will probably always be poorer because it doesn’t have the industrial capacity. More people are moving to the East than leaving since 2017, so things are changing in some cities. A major difference in future wealth is the inheritance. Billions are being inherited in the West as the older prosperous generation pass on their wealth. In the East it’s peanuts as they missed out on the good times. That is because of Stalin not Hitler.

This whole shtick is a bit of a new one for G whereby absurd arguments are put forward that are actually those of other people, except he waits a while before he reveals that.

 

[martcov]

This whole shtick is a bit of a new one for G whereby absurd arguments are put forward that are actually those of other people, except he waits a while before he reveals that.

not new, but this is particularly absurd and so he obviously has a card to draw out at the end. Probably a quote by someone from labour.

 

[shmmeee]

There is one big point you miss when you bring up house values. What is the use of having a house worth 250k if you never sell it? The ones who benefit the most are your generation. Not the ones who live in it until they die.

Because it’s still an asset. You can downsize, move to a less popular area, move country, borrow against it. And most importantly, pay off the mortgage because youve got tiny payments compared to someone buying now thanks to a low debt to equity ratio.

 

[martcov]

You've resorted to the old name then, and still . the same bullshit as ever. Have you been chasing the young ladies again you mucky old pensioner ?

you‘re mad as a hatter. What old name? I am not a pensioner. You seem obsessed with my sex life, which is unfortunately not as colourful as you pretend.

 

[shmmeee]

So you are winning just like the rest but still using it as a stick to beat those who have nothing to do with house prices or interest rates.

Mate. I bought in 2007 just before the crash on a 105% mortgage. I then got screwed out of my equity during my divorce. I am not winning. But I’m in the top 15% of earners, I can rent comfortably and will get back on the ladder one day. This isn’t about me, an entire generation isn’t stupid, lazy or lying dude, they really are having trouble getting on the housing ladder.

 

[shmmeee]

So pensions should be hit again because someone dodges tax?

How about hitting tax dodgers first?

How are we supposed to save for the future when the goalposts keep getting moved? You need to think about what you are saying. I have spent nearly 30 years putting every spare penny away. Our newest car is now 11 years old. No fancy holidays. I have had 2 weekends away with the wife without children in all the years we have been together. It has been tough at times. But it has all been for our futures. It is happening when I am 55. If it gets hit again I might as well have had a good time and been a burden on the state when I am old.

Missed this. No, pensioners get a shit deal in the U.K., I saw something the other day that EU countries like France and Germany have pensions above £20k and we have around £8k. It’s a disgrace. Cheaper housing benefits everyone. It allows pensioners to move to appropriately sized houses or specialist care should they need to. A tax on wealth should obviously take into account saving for later life and housing/inheritance. But rich families stay very rich through inheritance planning (mostly land) and that needs cutting out. A large amount of excessive wealth in this country is from rentier behaviour like land ownership.

The tax system should encourage efficient use of resources. That’s the entire point of capitalism. That means rewarding work and punishing rent seeking.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The super rich pay as little tax as they can get away with as it is. They pay accountants very well to achieve this and would simply continue doing so. The USA had marginal tax rates of around 90% in the 50s-the rich went nowhere.

So...if taxes here reach a point where it is more cost effective, & a better risk-benefit ratio, to move their money elsewhere...they will do so.
They are clever enough to know that Labour is vindictively seeking to grab their wealth from them.

I'm sure that the vast majority of us would do likewise. Some will say they wouldn't, but imo it is only a small proportion of those that wouldn't in reality

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[SkyblueBazza]

Do please request a slot to argue that Hitler was good for Germany.

To be fair - you (& others) are deliberately trying to slant this to discredit the poster rather than acknowledge the concept.

G is not a Nazi supporter, in the same way as I was not trivialising the holocaust in a previous post that I was lambasted for. It is simply a case of you choosing to focus upon & take issue with the non-issue

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[SkyblueBazza]

Yes we all learnt this at school.


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Patronising

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[SkyblueBazza]

Evidence shows that when you do favours for the rich they tend to pocket the extra wealth and it doesn’t trickle down. The experiment in Kansas with this led the state to financial ruin very quickly indeed.

More to the point the tax cuts for the rich and corporations have done little to stem the outsourcing of American jobs to countries with lower wages. We also know that the wealthy tend to indulge in tax avoidance with great success even with ‘friendly’ rates now. Making it harder to avoid paying a fair contribution should be applauded.

It does trickle down, they will tend to spend more extravagantly

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[SkyblueBazza]

I’m just saying

Well you’ll see that Grendel is somewhat right - economically he did benefit Germany.

obviously mass genocide and starting World War 2 is heinous and ultimately he was destroyed for good - but if you’re looking at him from a purely economic view he was good for Germany

Exactly the point I think G was trying to make. The ruination of Germany that was bought about by Hitler's policies led to modern Germany booming like a Phoenix from the ashes.

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