CWR (7 Viewers)

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Surely the blame is at Sisu's door for running off to the eu in the first place?
Surely after the last arse kicking in court if they'd of drawn a line in the sand and stopped it all then we'd be at the ricoh now?
Or am I missing something?

Yes, correct. But wasps began negotiations in the knowledge that this happened. Besides if it was undersold then they should have to pay to difference, correct? At which point SISU would have been vindicated

If as wasps and the council say it’s not - why won’t they negotiate without the clause? After al they keep telling us a football club should play in its own city.

I’m all for SISU paying any legal costs in the event that the action fails but even if they’re to blame - as said before, if they’re so confident the sale is fine - why put the caveat in?

 

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[Mild-Mannered Janitor]

I’m not sure exactly what the EU can look at. I would have thought it is only 2 areas which would class as misuse of public funds.

1.Did CCC use its own funds to subsidise private entities (Wasps) in the purchase of the long leasehold.
2. Did CCC do all it could to market the leasehold properly to gain best value for that lease?

I don’t think the EU can judge the actual valuation, working in commercial real estate I see values put different values on leases, valuations, dilapidations all the time. I would have thought the EU will judge process to get best value. Ie if there was an auction for the long lease then CCC would be completely in the clear.
If either points are found to be true above, I’m not sure about rectification, I can see fines/penalties and job losses at the council but not sure you can put a value on “if there had been more bidders” but you could quantify the state aid element but not sure that could be charged to Wasps.
One thing I don’t see happening is for SUSU to be given an option to buy the long leasehold

I have said all along I don’t quite get why they cannot get to a commercial deal that provides immense marriage value here for both Wasps and SISU/CCFC. More power together for higher sponsorship, joint funding of a better pitch,/use of the UV tech more than Wasps use now, stronger contract payment from catering firm, cheaper sales commission to ticketmaster, naming rights to stadium, shared stewards etc
I guess Wasps must be nervous about the EU element though as it changed the deal late on last time to protect themselves and therefore this prevents that marriage value at the moment.

 

[Somerset Sky Blue]

What odds would you give me on Sisu winning the case, then they themselves being tied up in legal claims about state aid and harm to business for the next decade?

I mean it’s likely to be appealed whatever the result is (barring it being found no investigation is needed), so we are probably talking 2030 at best now.

Not very good odds I'm afraid!
Yes, that is the obvious next step, more legal battles/appeals....

 

[Nick]

How is that a hostile takeover being planned now? Sisu just rejected the offer.

Really? Ha

 

[Hadji's_Goatee]

Just listened back to the 5 o’clock phone in on BBC sounds. Clive Eakin is a fricking joke and their is definitely an agenda from the supposedly impartial radio presenter. 100% pushing the get back at the Ricoh narrative. Shutting down the caller Pete with his logical views on St Andrews. Name checking London Wasps etc.

He sounded very triggered on many of the points, what a chump. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s friendly with the some councillors. You can stick your one sided opinions up your jaxxy mate. Then again it’s been many years since the BBC were deemed as impartial.

Also people are starting to notice how terrible his commentary is now we can see the pictures to his words on iFollow. Getting fed up of his drivel!

 

[chiefdave]

I wonder if you’d get an entertainment company to buy it and convert it for that.

If only someone had thought about getting the worlds biggest entertainment company, who also own numerous successful clubs in various sports, involved.

Hang on a minute, isn't that exactly what SISU had lined up with AEG? In the words of Jim Bowen take a look at what you could have won:
Home | AEG Worldwide

 

[Blind-Faith]

(I think - expect people with more knowledge to amend) related to the sale of the Ricoh to wasps at a value below market value (in reality, a subsidy from local government, which isn't allowed under EU). Basically, the council (who on behalf of Coventry taxpayers) owned the Ricoh and sold it for less than its value, so the taxpayers are out of pocket.
If the EU finds this happened, then Coventry council have to resolve this (not sure where the money goes, probably to Coventry council - not to ccfc or Sisu), but perhaps wasps have to pay more?
Again, some would hope this will distress wasps even more, causing them to go bankrupt (no guarantee), and then Coventry council would have to find a buyer of the Ricoh...which, again, some think that Sisu will buy, before presumably trying one last chance at operation premier League or selling ccfc?
The indemnity clause is that if the EU force wasps to pay more....ccfc (not Sisu) will pay the debt, potentially tens of millions.
Don't know if that helps or is accurate.

Thankyou very much

 

[Grendel]

How is that a hostile takeover being planned now? Sisu just rejected the offer.

By getting a 10 year rent deal agreed with our new owner, showing it to the trust and then trying to rubbish the experience of going to “home games” - just a thought.

 

[chiefdave]

The indemnity clause is that if the EU force wasps to pay more....ccfc (not Sisu) will pay the debt, potentially tens of millions.

It also covered other organisations so if CCC were found to be in the wrong and hit with a huge fine, even if it had no impact on Wasps, CCFC would be the ones paying.

 

[Grendel]

Just listened back to the 5 o’clock phone in on BBC sounds. Clive Eakin is a fricking joke and their is definitely an agenda from the supposedly impartial radio presenter. 100% pushing the get back at the Ricoh narrative. Shutting down the caller Pete with his logical views on St Andrews. Name checking London Wasps etc.

He sounded very triggered on many of the points, what a chump. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s friendly with the some councillors. You can stick your one sided opinions up your jaxxy mate. Then again it’s been many years since the BBC were deemed as impartial.

Also people are starting to notice how terrible his commentary is now we can see the pictures to his words on iFollow. Getting fed up of his drivel!

On his commentary as many have stated he’s better than most local commentators

The fact is they cover Wasps games so they are not going to be able to make critical references about them

I didn’t hear him but I doubt Pete was very sensible. He’s very provocative on this issue and would be best to not antagonise as no doubt he did.

The fact is a lot of people do want an instant return. I don’t see a good outcome for the club at all to be honest either way.

 

[Mild-Mannered Janitor]

Interesting read around state aid if that is what the case is going to be, would interesting to see if CCC did give any support “affects other member states” maybe SISU would have to show that AC/Inter were considering using the Ricoh whilst the San Siro gets replaced.

State aid: guidance - gov.scot

lots of tabs and links to the appeal process and legal recourse etc, perhaps our local journalists could set it all out for us in what could be an interesting article on the future process/implications of the EU complaint

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

It also covered other organisations so if CCC were found to be in the wrong and hit with a huge fine, even if it had no impact on Wasps, CCFC would be the ones paying.

Yeah - if on the off chance we were sold, they could still pursue the club...

Bit of shithousery that the club’s supporters trust supports

 

[chiefdave]

I’m not sure exactly what the EU can look at. I would have thought it is only 2 areas which would class as misuse of public funds.

1.Did CCC use its own funds to subsidise private entities (Wasps) in the purchase of the long leasehold.
2. Did CCC do all it could to market the leasehold properly to gain best value for that lease?

I don’t think the EU can judge the actual valuation, working in commercial real estate I see values put different values on leases, valuations, dilapidations all the time. I would have thought the EU will judge process to get best value.

The way it was explained to me by a lawyer at work is that the English courts look at the application of the law in detail. So a judge can sit there thinking this is dodgy but as long as the letter of the law has been applied is powerless to do anything.

The EC on the other hand can look at what concepts UK law should uphold in order to be in line with European law.

Couple of examples were given to me. A judge here can not look at the overall deal, ie what Wasps paid for 250 years, as they are technically two separate deals. The EC can go that's clearly been done to get round the rules and is to all intents and purposes one transaction. Similarly here CCC can claim they have not disposed of an asset as they still own the freehold. The EC can look and say they've clearly sold a lease that is longer than the lifetime of the stadium can reasonably expected to be.

The EC can therefore look at the sale from a point of view our courts can't consider.

This potentially means any punishment is handed out to our government rather than CCC or Wasps as it can be found that our laws are not in line with Europe as they should be.

 

[Grendel]

A change in owner ether at Wasps or Coventry.
The owners hate each other that much dont believe ether would back down even getting what they wanted.

I don’t think the actual wasps owner hates the football club

 

[Mild-Mannered Janitor]

I agree on all points ChiefDave

 

[SBAndy]

I’m not sure exactly what the EU can look at. I would have thought it is only 2 areas which would class as misuse of public funds.

1.Did CCC use its own funds to subsidise private entities (Wasps) in the purchase of the long leasehold.
2. Did CCC do all it could to market the leasehold properly to gain best value for that lease?

I don’t think the EU can judge the actual valuation, working in commercial real estate I see values put different values on leases, valuations, dilapidations all the time. I would have thought the EU will judge process to get best value. Ie if there was an auction for the long lease then CCC would be completely in the clear.
If either points are found to be true above, I’m not sure about rectification, I can see fines/penalties and job losses at the council but not sure you can put a value on “if there had been more bidders” but you could quantify the state aid element but not sure that could be charged to Wasps.
One thing I don’t see happening is for SUSU to be given an option to buy the long leasehold

I have said all along I don’t quite get why they cannot get to a commercial deal that provides immense marriage value here for both Wasps and SISU/CCFC. More power together for higher sponsorship, joint funding of a better pitch,/use of the UV tech more than Wasps use now, stronger contract payment from catering firm, cheaper sales commission to ticketmaster, naming rights to stadium, shared stewards etc
I guess Wasps must be nervous about the EU element though as it changed the deal late on last time to protect themselves and therefore this prevents that marriage value at the moment.

May I ask what you do within CRE?

 

[Flying Fokker]

Because the Council and W**ps are trying to distress CCFC/SISU in to a forced sale of the club. That's clear as they BOTH have parties interested in the takeover deal. Distressing companies in to better deals is something SISU get slated for daily. But you seem to think it's ok for w**ps/CCC to do it?? Bit hypocritical dont you think??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Yes, it seems SISU’s initial strategy has left a nasty taste in people’s mouths. On the current issue they themselves had no choice but to move us out of the city again...and still the fans bicker about us playing out of the city.

We are the only show out of town. Two Turkeys do not an Eagle make....

 

[Buster]

Just listened back to the 5 o’clock phone in on BBC sounds. Clive Eakin is a fricking joke and their is definitely an agenda from the supposedly impartial radio presenter. 100% pushing the get back at the Ricoh narrative. Shutting down the caller Pete with his logical views on St Andrews. Name checking London Wasps etc.

He sounded very triggered on many of the points, what a chump. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s friendly with the some councillors. You can stick your one sided opinions up your jaxxy mate. Then again it’s been many years since the BBC were deemed as impartial.

Also people are starting to notice how terrible his commentary is now we can see the pictures to his words on iFollow. Getting fed up of his drivel!

You don’t like him , do you

 

[MalcSB]

On his commentary as many have stated he’s better than most local commentators

The fact is they cover Wasps games so they are not going to be able to make critical references about them

I didn’t hear him but I doubt Pete was very sensible. He’s very provocative on this issue and would be best to not antagonise as no doubt he did.

The fact is a lot of people do want an instant return. I don’t see a good outcome for the club at all to be honest either way.

I heard him and thought he sounded perfectly reasonable, despite Clive repeatedly interjecting and talking over him with wasps speak.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The way it was explained to me by a lawyer at work is that the English courts look at the application of the law in detail. So a judge can sit there thinking this is dodgy but as long as the letter of the law has been applied is powerless to do anything.

The EC on the other hand can look at what concepts UK law should uphold in order to be in line with European law.

Couple of examples were given to me. A judge here can not look at the overall deal, ie what Wasps paid for 250 years, as they are technically two separate deals. The EC can go that's clearly been done to get round the rules and is to all intents and purposes one transaction. Similarly here CCC can claim they have not disposed of an asset as they still own the freehold. The EC can look and say they've clearly sold a lease that is longer than the lifetime of the stadium can reasonably expected to be.

The EC can therefore look at the sale from a point of view our courts can't consider.

This potentially means any punishment is handed out to our government rather than CCC or Wasps as it can be found that our laws are not in line with Europe as they should be.

Hail to the chief

 

[The coventrian]

Brain cells that work?

Hilarious. We cant all be know it alls like you.
What exactly was wrong with my post? So your saying if sisu hadn't had ran off to the eu we'd still of still been ground sharing somewhere?

 

[tisza]

Interesting read around state aid if that is what the case is going to be, would interesting to see if CCC did give any support “affects other member states” maybe SISU would have to show that AC/Inter were considering using the Ricoh whilst the San Siro gets replaced.

State aid: guidance - gov.scot

lots of tabs and links to the appeal process and legal recourse etc, perhaps our local journalists could set it all out for us in what could be an interesting article on the future process/implications of the EU complaint

go down the list "likely to constitute state aid" and there would seem to be 3 or 4 points that could be considered.

 

[Hadji's_Goatee]

On his commentary as many have stated he’s better than most local commentators

The fact is they cover Wasps games so they are not going to be able to make critical references about them

I didn’t hear him but I doubt Pete was very sensible. He’s very provocative on this issue and would be best to not antagonise as no doubt he did.

The fact is a lot of people do want an instant return. I don’t see a good outcome for the club at all to be honest either way.

Grendel is Eakin, all makes sense now

 

[Mild-Mannered Janitor]

go down the list "likely to constitute state aid" and there would seem to be 3 or 4 points that could be considered.

Exactly what I thought but I’m no lawyer, it’s how you define the member states element and does CCC and helping around a stadium lease really affect other countries? I think SISU would hope to argue that it wasn't marketed correctly and therefore has affected others by creating a non compete situation.
I don’t understand how the press don’t ask telling questions to our councillors and to Wasps/SISU on these matters

 

[mr_monkey]

Exactly what I thought but I’m no lawyer, it’s how you define the member states element and does CCC and helping around a stadium lease really affect other countries? I think SISU would hope to argue that it wasn't marketed correctly and therefore has affected others by creating a non compete situation.
I don’t understand how the press don’t ask telling questions to our councillors and to Wasps/SISU on these matters

Because if they did they wouldn't get their free wasps tickets and flags

 

[Nick]

Neil from the trust has now gone into overdrive again

 

[tisza]

Seems little point 2nd guessing the EU.
The Real Madrid case - received land from Madrid Council valued at around 500,000 Euros.
Couldn't build on it so Council bought it back at around 22 million Euros.
Commission said that constituted state aid.
Madrid appealed and won as EU Court said it didn't show an advantage to Real Madrid (even though they profited by 21 odd million euros)

 

[fernandopartridge]

Exactly what I thought but I’m no lawyer, it’s how you define the member states element and does CCC and helping around a stadium lease really affect other countries? I think SISU would hope to argue that it wasn't marketed correctly and therefore has affected others by creating a non compete situation.
I don’t understand how the press don’t ask telling questions to our councillors and to Wasps/SISU on these matters

It isn't about other countries as such it is about whether or not state aid distorts the single market by the state supporting a particular company (often referred to as economic operators)

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

I would piss myself laughing if SISU sold up (e.g. at the top of the cycle following promotion), W*sps form a giant love-in with the CCC/Trust-backed new owners, allowing CCFC to move back to the Ricoh, and THEN the EC decide the sale of the Ricoh WAS state aid and W*sps have to cough up £20M.
You heard it here first!!!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Again though none of this matters as we can’t go back unless one side changes it’s stance

I agree entirely. I also have a certain sympathy with the view that Wasps are the ones most likely to change their stance. SISU aren't exactly renowned for turning, after all.

Only that anyone could have reported it
That referring it is not in itself legal action
Wasps were talking with knowledge of it
They added the indemnity knowing full well the club couldn’t agree to it
Once it has been challenged it can’t be withdrawn

The timing is interesting - reporting it while negotiating a deal. When that came out (and the timing of that is interesting too) then it was inevitable that, having been seen to be acting in bad faith, Wasps would kick the club out.

It's not just Wasps who were unimpressed with SISU's actions in terms of communicating (or not) the complaint.

 

[shmmeee]

Because the Council and W**ps are trying to distress CCFC/SISU in to a forced sale of the club. That's clear as they BOTH have parties interested in the takeover deal. Distressing companies in to better deals is something SISU get slated for daily. But you seem to think it's ok for w**ps/CCC to do it?? Bit hypocritical dont you think??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

What you on about?

Sisu have chosen to leave each time and not return. Right now it’s in Wasps gift to drop their preconditions but it was Sisu who have them that stick to beat them with.

No one can make Sisu sell and CCFC seem to be doing better not worse recently.

This is just the ravings of a nutter. Sorry.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I would piss myself laughing if SISU sold up (e.g. at the top of the cycle following promotion), W*sps form a giant love-in with the CCC/Trust-backed new owners, allowing CCFC to move back to the Ricoh, and THEN the EC decide the sale of the Ricoh WAS state aid and W*sps have to cough up £20M.
You heard it here first!!!

2bf the trust will have agreed to the indemnity clause so the club would go bust

 

[Nick]

What you on about?

Sisu have chosen to leave each time and not return. Right now it’s in Wasps gift to drop their preconditions but it was Sisu who have them that stick to beat them with.

No one can make Sisu sell and CCFC seem to be doing better not worse recently.

This is just the ravings of a nutter. Sorry.

So wasps being involved in the consortium and forcing the club out is a coincidence?

 

[shmmeee]

So wasps being involved in the consortium and forcing the club out is a coincidence?

Who forced the club out?

If Sisu hadn’t lodged the state aid complaint do you really think we’d still be at St Andrews?

It’s been in Sisus gift all the way up until then.

 

[Nick]

Who forced the club out?

If Sisu hadn’t lodged the state aid complaint do you really think we’d still be at St Andrews?

It’s been in Sisus gift all the way up until then.

The indemnity saying the club has to pay if the council / wasps were found to be in the wrong forced the club out.

The massive elephant in the room.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that wasps were involved with the consortium?

As I pointed out months ago, it's haskell part 2. You were too busy saying conspiracy and probably missed that I was right.