The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Ah stop, that is absolute bollocks, utter crap- you can put up as many charts and white justifications as you like, until you’ve been in the shoes of the people that get abuse, subtle digs, ridicule, excluded every single day because of their colour & place of birth then you can’t say shit like this. This is the very definition of being in denial, the epitome of deflection- we see racism and xenophobia every day and it’s getting worse, but actually “there is no problem cause I have a great chart that shows there isn’t a problem”. It proves absolutely nothing apart from what I have already said- English people don’t come out and say they’re xenophobic, because they don’t actually believe they are xenophobic, they say the right things and they think they mean them, but when push comes to shove, racism and xenophobia are everywhere around us.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Even in my own lifetime growing up in Cov. First it was the Irish, then the West Indians and Indians/ Pakistanis, then the Eastern Europeans and Islamaphobia- it’s there. All day, every day. Until people accept that it’s there it will never go away. And I don’t buy this “yeah but it’s worse elsewhere”- say that was true, does that make it all ok then for Afghan kids to be be getting beaten up and posted to YouTube, Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins having literally millions of fans hanging on their words about final solutions and being openly racist, people like Arron Banks mocking people who die on dinghies one the channel (who aren’t white), and is it coincidence that even someone like Raheem Sterling gets treated like he’s a street criminal and his every move slated whereas white players who do ten times worse are worshipped?
Some fundamental points. It is beyond any kind of doubt that there is a serious racism and xenophobia issue in England, which is getting worse, it is irrelevant that white people with charts try to prove it isn’t the case, and the fact that there are similar problems elsewhere does not make it acceptable. I don’t know what kind of society you want to live in, but for me one that refuses to acknowledge social diseases like this & tries to justify it away, that’s the sign of a very sick society.
tisza
Well-Known Member
My missus is threatening to divorce me as I am no longer part of the EU family
Seriously was talking to a Hungarian EU Minister last week who was talking about a EU-type citizenship for those of us resident in EU. Popular in Brussels. Main opposition? The French
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
I don’t know what this is intended to prove to be honest. It’s nothing to do with racism, that’s for sure.My missus is threatening to divorce me as I am no longer part of the EU family
Seriously was talking to a Hungarian EU Minister last week who was talking about a EU-type citizenship for those of us resident in EU. Popular in Brussels. Main opposition? The French
dutchman
Well-Known Member
Strange isn't it? I live in what is probably THE most multi-cultural area of Coventry (including large numbers of asylum seekers) and haven't witnessed a single racist incident in many years.
fellatio_Martinez
Well-Known Member
The fact you're accusing one of the most left leaning posters on here of being involved in covering up racism is proof if proof were needed that you've shit the bed on this discussion.
hill83
Well-Known Member
Strange how I hear and witness stuff almost every single time I leave my house
Of course I'm ultra sensitive to it, and I'm sick to fucking death of calling people out for saying shit about black people to my face because they think I'm white.
"Not you though pal"
Every time I went to a white mates families house growing up. My own wifes family, my own family on my dads side. People at work. New people I meet who don't know me. The list goes on and on and it's every single day. Feel free to dismiss what I'm saying, but it's a fact.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Does racism exist? Yes.
Does the U.K. have a particularly bad problem compared to other countries? No.
These are not two conflicting statements. We have a lot of work to do, but we’ve also come a hell of a long way. It’s possible to despise racism and think it needs stamping out but also not think literally half the country is racist and that it’s some epidemic.
More to the point, bigotry is beaten by making people better off and exposing them to difference in their daily life. Not just calling people racist in general without justification.
That’s it. That’s my point. Obviously I’m white and won’t experience/notice it as much as BAME people, but the data shows we are doing OK despite a recent spike. Fact is most other countries are horrendously racist. Like 1970s racist. We have come a long way.
Does the U.K. have a particularly bad problem compared to other countries? No.
These are not two conflicting statements. We have a lot of work to do, but we’ve also come a hell of a long way. It’s possible to despise racism and think it needs stamping out but also not think literally half the country is racist and that it’s some epidemic.
More to the point, bigotry is beaten by making people better off and exposing them to difference in their daily life. Not just calling people racist in general without justification.
That’s it. That’s my point. Obviously I’m white and won’t experience/notice it as much as BAME people, but the data shows we are doing OK despite a recent spike. Fact is most other countries are horrendously racist. Like 1970s racist. We have come a long way.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Out of idle curiosity... Where do you work??
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Not dismissing your experience and it’s disgraceful when it happens. We have a long long way to go. Sorry if I gave that impression.
hill83
Well-Known Member
Not going to say to be honest. But a bloke who I know longer work with as he got asked to move on before I had a chance to put a complaint in, called a woman we were watching on 'Golden Balls' towards the end of a night shift, "A classic uppity n*gger" directly to me.
Saying that it's rare at work, but it's happens. Not that blatant but it's the little, 'you're a white bloke on the inside of the joke' stuff. "Is he the cleaner" etc about a black bloke in a suit etc.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I don't disagree that relatively we do well. What I've been proud of in being British is our tolerance and openness to others. It does seem recently racists have become emboldened however, and there's a reluctance to call racists racist when previously they'd have been called out. There are also racist tropes which seem to be more accepted nowadays too - this is regression.
Bigotry will always exist, but it'll thrive if people let it.
hill83
Well-Known Member
No worries. I normally try to not get involved in talk like this on here as I'm coming at it from a different perspective than 99% of you but now and again it riles me up and the lad was up at 4am this morning so I'm in a mood.
The stick twitter etc gets for being a hive mind from people on here with no sense of self awareness is incredible.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Tbf the different perspective is surely what's needed though...?
hill83
Well-Known Member
Yeah but I'd rather post gifs and talk about beer.
hill83
Well-Known Member
Also of course, it works both ways, but it's genuinely rarer in my experience, but my mum used to get shit of black blokes when I was a kid saying she should be having black kids not white kids.
So that was fun to hear when I was 4. Got called a paki by a black lad at school once too.
So that was fun to hear when I was 4. Got called a paki by a black lad at school once too.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No arguments there. But equally calling things that aren’t directly racism dilutes it’s power. You lose your influence if you don’t make the arguments well. Otherwise it’s just name calling and people close up. Hills examples are clear racism and I’d hope most would agree and call it out if they saw it.
To be honest I think part of the blame has to lie with modern social justice activists who are ridiculously extreme. Everyone needs to calm down and talk instead of lobbing insults.
hill83
Well-Known Member
I've got non white family members who voted leave, just for balance.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
here we go again
listen- fuck “the data”, open your eyes and your ears, that’s how you’ll see the truth.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Calling things that aren’t directly racism? Like what?
I’m sure you mean well pal, but you’re digging a massive hole here.
My own wife and kids, on a daily basis, hearing comments, snide remarks, observations about ‘immigrants’, then without fail when people realise they’re talking to immigrants, the classic “oh I didn’t mean you, I meant the others”
you don’t have to have gangs wandering around dressed as the KKK for there to be a racism problem- the remarks, the comments, the constant reminders that you’re “different” and somehow don’t belong, that’s what makes lives a total misery and that’s racism.
And the very day Brexit happened, it all got exponentially worse, millions of amateur Alf Garnetts appeared on the scene, including people we thought we knew well, and when called out on it all saying “oh no, I’m sorry, I don’t mean you personally, obviously!”
I am not calling anyone on here a racist. My point is that if you are saying England doesn’t have a racism issue that gets worse every day, and you’re not non-white or an immigrant, then a respectful “fuck off, you have no idea what you’re talking about and you have no business trying to whitewash it”
like the article said, England as a country is in denial.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
One thing that is annoying me today is the quote that we've been with the European Union 47 years.
What we joined wasn't the EU. We never had a vote on joining the EU. It was an experiment which was put onto the people of Europe, hoping for its consent in future years which never arrived from a lot of individual nations electorates within the EU.
How any politician who supported this can carry on in their jobs in the UK, or be viewed favourably by history, is beyond my understanding.
What we joined wasn't the EU. We never had a vote on joining the EU. It was an experiment which was put onto the people of Europe, hoping for its consent in future years which never arrived from a lot of individual nations electorates within the EU.
How any politician who supported this can carry on in their jobs in the UK, or be viewed favourably by history, is beyond my understanding.
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Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
So does this “data” capture all the remarks, classroom bullying, racial putdowns etc? What’s the definition of ‘acceptable’ racism and at what point does it get captured in ‘the data’?
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Personally I’d be more concerned about the prosperity and health of the population right now as opposed to a political analysis, but whatever floats your boat.
I was desperate to avoid getting back involved in this debate (EU ref not wider racism) as, in my view, it’s passed but Ring of Steel in particular has been making suggestions that Brexit was a racist vote or harking back to the good old days of the empire, so I had to comment (even if this is going over old ground)
Firstly, I agree on two things, there is no doubt thick racists would’ve voted to leave. Secondly, the vote has coincided with a spike in racism as racists appear to feel emboldened by the result. This needs to be stamped out asap and hopefully football/fans can help to lead the way (unfortunately it’s not doing great at the moment)
In terms of the vote though I’d like to summarise for ring of steels benefit the variety of reasons people voted to leave. I have used the words ‘believe‘ or ‘belief’ as I’m not going to justify/argue against each individuals points merits as these are reasons why, not necessarily facts (I’ll start with those that may be considered ‘racist’ but I see as genuine/valid concerns, especially for the poorest in society)
The belief that uncontrolled net migration was having a negative impact of public services and housing.
The belief that uncontrolled net migration of unskilled workers was suppressing wages
The belief that the current immigration system was unfair...why have a points based/visa systems for skilled workers and or workers that may add more value to the country/economy from non EU nations (Africa, Asia, Australia, US etc) when pretty much anyone from the EU could come over unchallenged....unless you want more white than brown/black people !!! (Tongue in cheek !)
The lack of understanding of the benefits of being in the EU in comparison with the net £10bn - £12bn annual contributions. In particular how this works when other countries are members of the Euro
The belief that the EU were pushing towards an ever closer political union and whether we have opt outs or not, we were and would’ve continued to be on the periphery of the EU. Also the belief that many feel they never had a say in the choice of closer political union in the first place
The concerns over previous negative referendum results in other countries (France, Ireland and Denmark) which were ignored/rejected by the EU, showing a lack of a appreciation and concerns over publics views across Europe
The belief that being in the EU had had a negative affect on industries their local area relied upon ie fishing.
The belief that the status quo wasn’t working for them and their families and voting leave might offer change for the better
I’m sure there are others more personal to those who voted Leave but you get the gist !
Yes, undoubtedly racists voted for brexit but to say it was a racist vote is probably as much the cause of problem/the outcome of the vote as anything. Maybe if some of the genuine concerns of people had been listened to and/or addressed we wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.
If I’d turned around and said people only voted remain because of project fear and also big business manipulating the minds of voters as they wanted continued cheap labour, I’d be equally derided, so let’s just leave it there !
ps for the record half my team at work was Asian (mainly Indian), I have a number of black/Asian friends and spoken to various non white people on the subject (before and after the result), some voted remain some voted leave !
Firstly, I agree on two things, there is no doubt thick racists would’ve voted to leave. Secondly, the vote has coincided with a spike in racism as racists appear to feel emboldened by the result. This needs to be stamped out asap and hopefully football/fans can help to lead the way (unfortunately it’s not doing great at the moment)
In terms of the vote though I’d like to summarise for ring of steels benefit the variety of reasons people voted to leave. I have used the words ‘believe‘ or ‘belief’ as I’m not going to justify/argue against each individuals points merits as these are reasons why, not necessarily facts (I’ll start with those that may be considered ‘racist’ but I see as genuine/valid concerns, especially for the poorest in society)
The belief that uncontrolled net migration was having a negative impact of public services and housing.
The belief that uncontrolled net migration of unskilled workers was suppressing wages
The belief that the current immigration system was unfair...why have a points based/visa systems for skilled workers and or workers that may add more value to the country/economy from non EU nations (Africa, Asia, Australia, US etc) when pretty much anyone from the EU could come over unchallenged....unless you want more white than brown/black people !!! (Tongue in cheek !)
The lack of understanding of the benefits of being in the EU in comparison with the net £10bn - £12bn annual contributions. In particular how this works when other countries are members of the Euro
The belief that the EU were pushing towards an ever closer political union and whether we have opt outs or not, we were and would’ve continued to be on the periphery of the EU. Also the belief that many feel they never had a say in the choice of closer political union in the first place
The concerns over previous negative referendum results in other countries (France, Ireland and Denmark) which were ignored/rejected by the EU, showing a lack of a appreciation and concerns over publics views across Europe
The belief that being in the EU had had a negative affect on industries their local area relied upon ie fishing.
The belief that the status quo wasn’t working for them and their families and voting leave might offer change for the better
I’m sure there are others more personal to those who voted Leave but you get the gist !
Yes, undoubtedly racists voted for brexit but to say it was a racist vote is probably as much the cause of problem/the outcome of the vote as anything. Maybe if some of the genuine concerns of people had been listened to and/or addressed we wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.
If I’d turned around and said people only voted remain because of project fear and also big business manipulating the minds of voters as they wanted continued cheap labour, I’d be equally derided, so let’s just leave it there !
ps for the record half my team at work was Asian (mainly Indian), I have a number of black/Asian friends and spoken to various non white people on the subject (before and after the result), some voted remain some voted leave !
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
why do people think being less racist than other countries is some sort of badge of honour? Just means there are more massive cunts in those countries than here, it's nothing to brag about.
We've made great strides admittedly but we've definitely regressed and it pretty shameful to be honest.
We've made great strides admittedly but we've definitely regressed and it pretty shameful to be honest.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
“Yes, undoubtedly racists voted for brexit but to say it was a racist vote is probably as much the cause of problem/the outcome of the vote as anything”
False, racism is the cause of the rise of racism.
False, racism is the cause of the rise of racism.
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
Spot on. But apparently there’s a chart that proves we don’t have a problem, and Steve says that calling Brexit-fuelled racism out is causing the problem, so just goes to show how far peoples heads are buried in the sand.
The coventrian
Well-Known Member
Nobody gives a fuck you jelly.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Well, I have my Passport application all ready to send off first thing Monday so I can get a nice new blue one in celebration of Brexit. We’ve got to keep the French in work somehow now our scallop fishermen won’t be encroaching on their waters.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Factual statement. I'm now a Hungarian resident with a Hungarian wife and 2 daughters. This particular Hungarian minister is a family friend who spends most of his time in Brussels. Check previous post somewhere and I'd discussed with SickBoy about the possibility of a "new" type of EU citizenship for expats.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yep, the direction of travel has definitely done a U turn. Just look how it’s creeping back into the football terraces at all levels of the English game.