The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (18 Viewers)

[Grendel]

I don't mind Sturgeon, it is an amusing likeness though. It was entertaining when Johnson tried to usher her into her own office, but she was having none of it and he backed down. You'll usually find that the 'Great Britain'/ 'British Empire' brexit types absolutely despise her because she doesn't want to be a part of what England is up to, and they really can't handle that fact. Whether its her or not is a moot point, but at some stage they will break away, it is inevitable.

They will never break away

 

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[Grendel]

Well actually she's pretty popular in Scotland, which I'd say is a tad more important than the opinions of people such as yourself which are pretty stupid.

It will happen, it is inevitable.

Many Scots hate her she’s really not very popular at all

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not if Boris has any say lol

Doesn't really matter what The Honey Monster does or says, it will happen.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Doesn't really matter what The Honey Monster does or says, it will happen.

Haha how will it happen, he has the majority and has the say

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Haha how will it happen, he has the majority and has the say

Doesn't matter, history shows what ultimately happens when you colonise & subjugate a country against its wishes. Its not 2014 any more.

Won't happen tomorrow, will take time, but the breakup of the UK is a cast iron certainty.

 

[Grendel]

Doesn't matter, history shows what ultimately happens when you colonise & subjugate a country against its wishes. Its not 2014 any more.

Won't happen tomorrow, will take time, but the breakup of the UK is a cast iron certainty.

It really isn’t

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It really isn’t

Nothing can stop it. Even more so as the 'Great Britain' generation are gradually replaced. But I guess we'll ultimately just have to wait and see.

 

[Grendel]

Nothing can stop it. Even more so as the 'Great Britain' generation are gradually replaced. But I guess we'll ultimately just have to wait and see.

Of course something can stop it - actually a lot of things can stop it. Let’s not kid ourselves here - this from Sturgeons stand point is nothing to do with Brexit but a life long obsession with nationalisation

People accuse the Brexit campaign of lies and deception. They should look at the campaign sturgeon runs and how she literally has no intention of discussing the economic realities.

There is no necessity for the uk to allow a retention of the pound at all and a new currency would be catastrophic

Many constitutional experts believe the unravelling of laws going back centuries will make the EU split look like a picnic.

Europe bends laws at will but they do not meet criteria at all - and certainly cannot immediately join. In fact I would suspect Spain will veto it anyway.

The Barnett formula benefits them and will be removed instantly causing devaluation of a currency they don’t have

They lie about not needed border controls for people - they will as it’s not just the uk people who cross the border

WTO terms if the uk refuse to negotiate a transition period

It’s laughable how people who object to Brexit seem to give this campaign any credit at all

 

[wingy]

Of course something can stop it - actually a lot of things can stop it. Let’s not kid ourselves here - this from Sturgeons stand point is nothing to do with Brexit but a life long obsession with nationalisation

People accuse the Brexit campaign of lies and deception. They should look at the campaign sturgeon runs and how she literally has no intention of discussing the economic realities.

There is no necessity for the uk to allow a retention of the pound at all and a new currency would be catastrophic

Many constitutional experts believe the unravelling of laws going back centuries will make the EU split look like a picnic.

Europe bends laws at will but they do not meet criteria at all - and certainly cannot immediately join. In fact I would suspect Spain will veto it anyway.

The Barnett formula benefits them and will be removed instantly causing devaluation of a currency they don’t have

They lie about not needed border controls for people - they will as it’s not just the uk people who cross the border

WTO terms if the uk refuse to negotiate a transition period

It’s laughable how people who object to Brexit seem to give this campaign any credit at all

You see for me this illustrates the whole hypocrisy in either argument and always felt.it regardless of previous vote
She is Farage.

 

[Grendel]

You see for me this illustrates the whole hypocrisy in either argument and always felt.it regardless of previous vote
She is Farage.

They are a Scottish version of UKIP and her whole “plan” is get independent and retain all benefits of being still in the uk

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Of course something can stop it - actually a lot of things can stop it. Let’s not kid ourselves here - this from Sturgeons stand point is nothing to do with Brexit but a life long obsession with nationalisation

People accuse the Brexit campaign of lies and deception. They should look at the campaign sturgeon runs and how she literally has no intention of discussing the economic realities.

There is no necessity for the uk to allow a retention of the pound at all and a new currency would be catastrophic

Many constitutional experts believe the unravelling of laws going back centuries will make the EU split look like a picnic.

Europe bends laws at will but they do not meet criteria at all - and certainly cannot immediately join. In fact I would suspect Spain will veto it anyway.

The Barnett formula benefits them and will be removed instantly causing devaluation of a currency they don’t have

They lie about not needed border controls for people - they will as it’s not just the uk people who cross the border

WTO terms if the uk refuse to negotiate a transition period

It’s laughable how people who object to Brexit seem to give this campaign any credit at all

I don't particularly 'object' to brexit, I just see very clearly that the main reasons most people voted for it were distasteful, and I do indeed dislike the increase in xenophobia since the vote, as was backed up by documents put up on here & the attitudes of certain posters. I also don't particularly intend to dispute the points above, however its also true that the reality for brexiteers here is that they really don't want it to happen, because it would represent an rejection of their beliefs & what they stand for, therefore they give umpteen reasons as to why it can't/ shouldn't/ wouldn't happen. All throughout recorded history we have seen this type of thing- and ultimately, whatever the risks, pitfalls & general scaremongering, if they want it then at some point they will indeed get it.

Talking of Spain- I would suspect that Gibraltar will have some role to play in the upcoming 11 months, an as yet underappreciated aspect to the negotiations.

 

[skybluetony176]

It really isn’t

May 2022 will be the big test. The next Northern Ireland assembly elections. I suspect that the DUP will take a hammering and the terms of the GFA will be triggered for a referendum on unification.

 

[Grendel]

I don't particularly 'object' to brexit, I just see very clearly that the main reasons most people voted for it were distasteful, and I do indeed dislike the increase in xenophobia since the vote, as was backed up by documents put up on here & the attitudes of certain posters. I also don't particularly intend to dispute the points above, however its also true that the reality for brexiteers here is that they really don't want it to happen, because it would represent an rejection of their beliefs & what they stand for, therefore they give umpteen reasons as to why it can't/ shouldn't/ wouldn't happen. All throughout recorded history we have seen this type of thing- and ultimately, whatever the risks, pitfalls & general scaremongering, if they want it then at some point they will indeed get it.

Talking of Spain- I would suspect that Gibraltar will have some role to play in the upcoming 11 months, an as yet underappreciated aspect to the negotiations.

The last campaign for the independence was lazily ran by the unionist element as they knew they would win. This time they would set out the sort of issues that would face an independent Scotland.

They should allow her to have it but stipulate it’s a hard exit, currency removal, borders and WTO terms as this is the reality and the economic catastrophe that would result in.

Scots are essentially unionists

I still don’t see where you get the impression she is remotely popular either

 

[David O'Day]

The last campaign for the independence was lazily ran by the unionist element as they knew they would win. This time they would set out the sort of issues that would face an independent Scotland.

They should allow her to have it but stipulate it’s a hard exit, currency removal, borders and WTO terms as this is the reality and the economic catastrophe that would result in.

Scots are essentially unionists

I still don’t see where you get the impression she is remotely popular either

still economically and politically illiterate I see Grenners

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't mind Sturgeon, it is an amusing likeness though. It was entertaining when Johnson tried to usher her into her own office, but she was having none of it and he backed down. You'll usually find that the 'Great Britain'/ 'British Empire' brexit types absolutely despise her because she doesn't want to be a part of what England is up to, and they really can't handle that fact. Whether its her or not is a moot point, but at some stage they will break away, it is inevitable.

No she's hated England her whole life like the rest of her incompetent party. That's what Scottish nationalism defines itself by. If she can't get a majority for indy with the current shitshow she never will.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It really isn’t

Northern Ireland will be gone it's just a question of when, thanks to Boris throwing it under the bus

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The last campaign for the independence was lazily ran by the unionist element as they knew they would win. This time they would set out the sort of issues that would face an independent Scotland.

They should allow her to have it but stipulate it’s a hard exit, currency removal, borders and WTO terms as this is the reality and the economic catastrophe that would result in.

Scots are essentially unionists

I still don’t see where you get the impression she is remotely popular either

Seeing as they got 45% even before all this Brexit stuff, I don't see how it can be stated that they are essentially unionists- even before getting sucked into England's mess almost half were patently not unionists.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Seeing as they got 45% even before all this Brexit stuff, I don't see how it can be stated that they are essentially unionists- even before getting sucked into England's mess almost half were patently not unionists.

They got 45% with a piss poor pro-UK campaign, austerity at its worst and David Cameron in office. Taking the votes at the last GE as an indicator, it was still 45-55.

In any case the question is academic since Johnson can keep saying 'no' unless pro-indy support went up to the 60s (Sturgeon's previous barometer for calling another one).

 

[Grendel]

Northern Ireland will be gone it's just a question of when, thanks to Boris throwing it under the bus

Again that’s not true - it’s the Belfast agreement that would trigger a referendum and that’s been available as an option from when it was signed anyway

It’s as they say for the people to decide

 

[Grendel]

Seeing as they got 45% even before all this Brexit stuff, I don't see how it can be stated that they are essentially unionists- even before getting sucked into England's mess almost half were patently not unionists.

As I said none of the arguments were challenged - they are full of holes

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again that’s not true - it’s the Belfast agreement that would trigger a referendum and that’s been available as an option from when it was signed anyway

It’s as they say for the people to decide

He is obliged to give a referendum if there is belief that Irish unity would win. Imagine it's about 50/50 now thanks to your man

 

[Grendel]

still economically and politically illiterate I see Grenners

Fascinating analysis from our very own Andrew Neil

 

[Grendel]

He is obliged to give a referendum if there is belief that Irish unity would win. Imagine it's about 50/50 now thanks to your man

Er the treaty has always allowed that every 7 years if Stormont voted for it?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

No she's hated England her whole life like the rest of her incompetent party. That's what Scottish nationalism defines itself by. If she can't get a majority for indy with the current shitshow she never will.

Thats a very 'English' thing to say. The voting would suggest that she isn't hated in her own country, you should pay more attention to what people are actually voting for.
Results of the 2019 General Election in Scotland

But I would certainly agree that if there were to be a referendum now, if she couldn't win that then she should reassess her career options. As for allowing a referendum as long as they were given a long list of threats beforehand as grendel proposes- I'm not sure anyone would believe the current government anyway, because when it comes to Scotland they have zero credibility. Put Sturgeon up against Johnson in Scotland? It would be a massacre, a walkover.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

They got 45% with a piss poor pro-UK campaign, austerity at its worst and David Cameron in office. Taking the votes at the last GE as an indicator, it was still 45-55.

In any case the question is academic since Johnson can keep saying 'no' unless pro-indy support went up to the 60s (Sturgeon's previous barometer for calling another one).

I'm not disputing or having a pop- why do you say its still 45-55?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

As I said none of the arguments were challenged - they are full of holes

In your opinion, however the votes were an objective reality.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Thats a very 'English' thing to say. The voting would suggest that she isn't hated in her own country, you should pay more attention to what people are actually voting for.
Results of the 2019 General Election in Scotland

But I would certainly agree that if there were to be a referendum now, if she couldn't win that then she should reassess her career options. As for allowing a referendum as long as they were given a long list of threats beforehand as grendel proposes- I'm not sure anyone would believe the current government anyway, because when it comes to Scotland they have zero credibility. Put Sturgeon up against Johnson in Scotland? It would be a massacre, a walkover.

Give it a rest, the Woman is constantly offensive and hates England....Given the views you have i thought you would of disliked her

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Give it a rest, the Woman is constantly offensive and hates England

So what? Irrelevant.

In any case I suppose you're saying Nigel Farage & Boris Johnson are absolute model citizens who have never offended any other country, ever. And how did they get on in the EU vote?

You fail to see or understand how this all works.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Er the treaty has always allowed that every 7 years if Stormont voted for it?

My point is that for the first time opinion may now be in favour of unity and give cause for a vote to be held. They won't have it otherwise but Johnson seems to be doing his best to make it happen

 

[Grendel]

Thats a very 'English' thing to say. The voting would suggest that she isn't hated in her own country, you should pay more attention to what people are actually voting for.
Results of the 2019 General Election in Scotland

But I would certainly agree that if there were to be a referendum now, if she couldn't win that then she should reassess her career options. As for allowing a referendum as long as they were given a long list of threats beforehand as grendel proposes- I'm not sure anyone would believe the current government anyway, because when it comes to Scotland they have zero credibility. Put Sturgeon up against Johnson in Scotland? It would be a massacre, a walkover.

More people voted for Brexit than her party in her government?

Her popularity ratings have crashed by a 1000%

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thats a very 'English' thing to say. The voting would suggest that she isn't hated in her own country, you should pay more attention to what people are actually voting for.
Results of the 2019 General Election in Scotland

But I would certainly agree that if there were to be a referendum now, if she couldn't win that then she should reassess her career options. As for allowing a referendum as long as they were given a long list of threats beforehand as grendel proposes- I'm not sure anyone would believe the current government anyway, because when it comes to Scotland they have zero credibility. Put Sturgeon up against Johnson in Scotland? It would be a massacre, a walkover.

You forget or don't know that I lived in Scotland for a long time and voted in 2014. I understand the arguments about political frustration but really the SNP believe that independence is inherently correct whether or not it works out better for Scotland to do it. And that, at its heart, comes from anti-English sentiment and the mass generalisations of people based on their birthplace. I never claimed that she is hated (G), but look at how she gets spoken to by the public on things like Question Time. Even Scots in favour of independence are frustrated by how she bangs on about another referendum and doesn't do her day job. The Scots already opposed to it have twice the frustration.

Stop putting people in boxes brah

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You forget or don't know that I lived in Scotland for a long time and voted in 2014. I understand the arguments about political frustration but really the SNP believe that independence is inherently correct whether or not it works out better for Scotland to do it. And that, at its heart, comes from anti-English sentiment and the mass generalisations of people based on their birthplace. I never claimed that she is hated (G), but look at how she gets spoken to by the public on things like Question Time. Even Scots in favour of independence are frustrated by how she bangs on about another referendum and doesn't do her day job. The Scots already opposed to it have twice the frustration.

Stop putting people in boxes brah

.. and yet somehow she swept the board at the elections.

Also this thing about voting for things because they're "inherently correct" you aren't going to tell me that the majority of brexit voters voted brexit because of a profound understanding of the implications, they did it because they thought it was "inherently correct", no matter what the consequences might be. It happened here, it'll happen there, and the evidence shows it is happening. You are making the mistake of thinking that everyone votes 'rationally' when it comes to citizenship & their country, they do not. Its highly emotive- as we see ourselves with brexit. For huge amounts of people facts & detailed considerations don't come into it half as much as what they instinctively want & feel.

And for the record, I think it is indeed inherently correct... if they want it. Its not the 19th century, we already caused enough messes around the globe with that type of behaviour.

Think back to 2012- olympics on, Farage was a marginal man, not taken too seriously, laughed at in many quarters. He played on nationalism, peoples' gut feelings (loads of cash didn't hurt either) and built it up to the point where he delivered brexit. You can scoff now but there is a very pertinent & recent example of how a movement can go from marginal to majority. I'd suggest that if people do want to 'keep' Scotland then one of the best ways would be to stop insulting & deriding them & their movement, coming out with what they see as "English arrogance"- when you do that you're actually giving them the fuel they need to build more support.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

More people voted for Brexit than her party in her government?

Her popularity ratings have crashed by a 1000%

Ah, "popularity ratings", that perfect guide that is always spot on. Much more realistic to use those than actual general elections I guess.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

.. and yet somehow she swept the board at the elections.

Also this thing about voting for things because they're "inherently correct" you aren't going to tell me that the majority of brexit voters voted brexit because of a profound understanding of the implications, they did it because they thought it was "inherently correct", no matter what the consequences might be. It happened here, it'll happen there, and the evidence shows it is happening. You are making the mistake of thinking that everyone votes 'rationally' when it comes to citizenship & their country, they do not. Its highly emotive- as we see ourselves with brexit. For huge amounts of people facts & detailed considerations don't come into it half as much as what the instinctively want & feel.

And for the record, I think it is indeed inherently correct... if they want it. Its not the 19th century, we already caused enough messes around the globe with that type of behaviour.

I voted against Scottish independence and against Brexit for similar reasons. If a consistent majority turns in favour of leaving the UK then obviously I have no objection-but that isn't what we're on about. We're on about the belief by the SNP that independence has to happen for its own sake and sod the consequences or them even having a majority for it. Carving up the world into ever smaller countries where we all go 'he's like this because he's on this side of the line on a map' should be bottom of our priorities. Culturally Scots have enormous amounts in common with the rest of Britain. It's just identity that's the sticking point and will only remain a sticking point as long as people continue to bash about over 700 year old battles.

Sturgeon got all those MPs because of first past the post. 45% of the vote leading to nearly all the seats? Hmm. It's not the 14th century

 

[Grendel]

Ah, "popularity ratings", that perfect guide that is always spot on. Much more realistic to use those than actual general elections I guess.

Indeed and more people voted for Brexit than the SNP in the Scottish Parliament. Popularity ratings are very relevant and Corbyns ratings were correct and a massive factor in their car crash