Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (247 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you’re basically saying the government is weak.

No I'm saying that the general public, who by and large have no scientific background and no access to the advice the government has received, are demanding complete shutdowns because other countries are doing it. The EFL and EPL have gone against government advice by closing down the competitions till April and done their little bit to add to the hysteria. Nobody below 60 has died in the UK and most were in their late 70s or older, and with other health problems as well. This does not justify the total shutdown of schools as many are calling for, for instance.

 

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[Ring Of Steel]

No I'm saying that the general public, who by and large have no scientific background and no access to the advice the government has received, are demanding complete shutdowns because other countries are doing it. The EFL and EPL have gone against government advice by closing down the competitions till April and done their little bit to add to the hysteria. Nobody below 60 has died in the UK and most were in their late 70s or older, and with other health problems as well. This does not justify the total shutdown of schools as many are calling for, for instance.

So how do you explain Matt Hancock directly contradicting this ‘expert’ and saying that the herd immunity aspect was never the plan?

 

[Brylowes]

Now we have Peston announcing government plans.

France have Macron communicating with the country and telling the people what’s gonna happen, same elsewhere and even fucking Trump is at least talking about it and saying what will happen over there.

What do we get? A complete veil of secrecy, backtracking, and no communication whatsoever apart from “leaks” to a journalist. Even Hancock’s article is behind a paywall.

Get Brexit Done, Taking Back Control, Levelling out.
They are a party of sound bites and empty promises, for a real crisis like this to strike
During their stewardship is unlucky for them and potentially catastrophic for us.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Patrick Vallance, yesterday: “Communities will become immune to it and that's going to be an important part of controlling this longer term. About 60% is the sort of figure you need to get herd immunity"

Matt Hancock, 24 hours later: “we have a plan, based on the expertise of world leading scientists. Herd immunity is not a part of it. That is a scientific concept, not a goal or our strategy”

They either haven’t got a clue what the plan is, or they’re just bullshitting

Matt Hancock is a bog standard politician with no scientific background. Patrick Vallance is an extremely well qualified and experienced figure who shouldn't be written off as an inverted commas expert. The strategy is to stretch out the curve so that the health system can better handle the total number of cases at any given time, in the knowledge that the vast majority will recover and that high risk groups are the ones in most need of distancing.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Get Brexit Done, Taking Back Control, taking back control
They are a party of sound bites and empty promises, for a real crisis like this to strike
During their stewardship is unlucky for them and potentially catastrophic for us.

Which is why they are leaving it to those better qualified to make the calls.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Matt Hancock is a bog standard politician with no scientific background. Patrick Vallance is an extremely well qualified and experienced figure who shouldn't be written off as an inverted commas expert. The strategy is to stretch out the curve so that the health system can better handle the total number of cases at any given time, in the knowledge that the vast majority will recover and that high risk groups are the ones in most need of distancing.

Well according to the govt the inverted commas are well deserved, because pretty much everything he said is being disowned within 48 hours.

It’s a side issue here as we are where we are, but perhaps if they hadn’t fucked up the NHS in the first place they wouldn’t be quite so desperate to take the keep the strain away from it now.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It would be much better If they shared more detailed analysis where the other vulnerable in society lie.
Just who is at specific risk agewise / condition etc per agegroup

Don't disagree with that Wingy I imagine it's because of the small data pool here that we haven't had that out yet.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Which is why they are leaving it to those better qualified to make the calls.

And hundreds of equally well qualified people are saying these ‘experts’ are wrong. I hope they aren’t.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Don't disagree with that Wingy I imagine it's because of the small data pool here that we haven't had that out yet.

Also they don’t like sharing information with the country, as we have seen on every issue so far.

 

[Brylowes]

Which is why they are leaving it to those better qualified to make the calls.

But that isn’t leadership is it, that would be to listen to all the expert analysis, weight up
All the likely outcomes, decide steadfastly on a well informed way forward and then go
To the people and explain the strategy and the importance of sticking to it and try to
Give the people confidence that you will see them through it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well according to the govt the inverted commas are well deserved, because pretty much everything he said is being disowned within 48 hours.

It’s a side issue here as we are where we are, but perhaps if they hadn’t fucked up the NHS in the first place they wouldn’t be quite so desperate to take the keep the strain away from it now.

The point on the NHS is true, but even with it being properly funded for the last decade it would still have a limit of endurance. The problem is that the politicians have started to waver in the face of public pressure and because none come from scientific backgrounds, they couldn't bring themselves to express inconvenient truths. Children have particularly high resistance to this disease and do not seem to be involved in its transmission but there's an outcry about shutting down schools.

Patrick Vallance is being let down by politicians who are bad at framing the strategy in terms that make sense to the public. It doesn't invalidate the strategy itself.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

But that isn’t leadership is it, that would be to listen to all the expert analysis, weight up
All the likely outcomes, decide steadfastly on a well informed way forward and then go
To the people and explain the strategy and the importance of sticking to it and try to
Give the people confidence that you will see them through it.

perfectly put.

Since Trump miraculously discovered science and put the travel ban in, the U.K. is now the only country on the planet not actively trying to contain the virus. This is going against the WHO, most of our own public health community and hundreds of very highly qualified people who ended up writing directly to express their horror at what is happening.

Does that not... ‘make you think’ a little bit?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The point on the NHS is true, but even with it being properly funded for the last decade it would still have a limit of endurance. The problem is that the politicians have started to waver in the face of public pressure and because none come from scientific backgrounds, they couldn't bring themselves to express inconvenient truths. Children have particularly high resistance to this disease and do not seem to be involved in its transmission but there's an outcry about shutting down schools.

Patrick Vallance is being let down by politicians who are bad at framing the strategy in terms that make sense to the public. It doesn't invalidate the strategy itself.

Patrick Vallance is also being let down by hundreds of equally qualified people who think he is wrong. Don’t pin this on Joe Bloggs, he is being questioned by many people who have just as strong a background as him.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But that isn’t leadership is it, that would be to listen to all the expert analysis, weight up
All the likely outcomes, decide steadfastly on a well informed way forward and then go
To the people and explain the strategy and the importance of sticking to it and try to
Give the people confidence that you will see them through it.

That is largely what has been done, Boris Johnson isn't qualified at all to be making calls on handling pandemic diseases and nor are any of his ministers. For once in a blue moon we at last have those with the knowledge and experience leading the strategy but the politicians have ballsed up on the wider framing of it to the public. I think Johnson is a prick but the decision to defer to people who know more about it is a strength and not a weakness.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

That is largely what has been done, Boris Johnson isn't qualified at all to be making calls on handling pandemic diseases and nor are any of his ministers. For once in a blue moon we at last have those with the knowledge and experience leading the strategy but the politicians have ballsed up on the wider framing of it to the public. I think Johnson is a prick but the decision to defer to people who know more about it is a strength and not a weakness.

The one thing I’ll say about Patrick Vallance is he’s got balls, because at some stage we all know that he’s going to be a scapegoat.

 

[David O'Day]

Yes there is, it’s being reported everywhere

It may happen but it has not been announced. It is reckless to say otherwise

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Patrick Vallance is also being let down by hundreds of equally qualified people who think he is wrong. Don’t pin this on Joe Bloggs, he is being questioned by many people who have just as strong a background as him.

And yet the only people out of the 20 who have died in the UK have been over 60 years old and in many of those cases with other illnesses contributing. It seems more that you are unwilling to credit anything done by this government and I say that as someone who despises Boris and his party.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The one thing I’ll say about Patrick Vallance is he’s got balls, because at some stage we all know that he’s going to be a scapegoat.

It would almost make you think that he believes strongly in what he is putting forward. As a scientist myself it's just frustrating to see how many are dismissing the strategy for being too 'technocratic' or nuanced.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

And yet the only people out of the 20 who have died in the UK have been over 60 years old and in many of those cases with other illnesses contributing. It seems more that you are unwilling to credit anything done by this government and I say that as someone who despises Boris and his party.

If you can find something that’s worthy of credit then I’ll give it no problem. Asking someone qualified for advice is not it.

 

[Brylowes]

That is largely what has been done, Boris Johnson isn't qualified at all to be making calls on handling pandemic diseases and nor are any of his ministers. For once in a blue moon we at last have those with the knowledge and experience leading the strategy but the politicians have ballsed up on the wider framing of it to the public. I think Johnson is a prick but the decision to defer to people who know more about it is a strength and not a weakness.

Of course the boffins behind the scenes should be advising the PM and his cabinet Of all the differing ways
to combat the virus, they should also be advising on the Likely consequences of any given strategy.
The PM and his cabinet should then decide on their way forward and advise the Population accordingly.

Boris has just been Boris, bumbling stuttering and stumbling his way through giving
Off an air of someone completely lost and out of his depth.......because that’s what he is.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It would almost make you think that he believes strongly in what he is putting forward. As a scientist myself it's just frustrating to see how many are dismissing the strategy for being too 'technocratic' or nuanced.

I don’t know what nuanced or technocratic aspects there are to it- and that’s my ignorance, not a dispute of what you say, my issue is the social side, by their own numbers they are saying they predict hundreds of thousands of deaths, and that’s at the low end. And millions in intensive care. That’s their own figures. But then again they now seem to be going back on that plan 24 hours later, so what actually is the plan?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If you can find something that’s worthy of credit then I’ll give it no problem. Asking someone qualified for advice is not it.

It's either that or you allow the politicians themselves to try and work it out when they have no scientific or medical background. Until the last few days the government had done well in sticking to its guns on this strategy and it had consensus from the Welsh/Scots/NI administrations. Closing schools would have the biggest impact on me directly for the massive disruption it would bring to an age group that has a nearly 0% death rate worldwide from this disease. They have been correct in keeping them open despite public pressure to close them.

To characterise this as sitting there doing nothing while everywhere else is doing a better job is just not true.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It's either that or you allow the politicians themselves to try and work it out when they have no scientific or medical background. Until the last few days the government had done well in sticking to its guns on this strategy and it had consensus from the Welsh/Scots/NI administrations. Closing schools would have the biggest impact on me directly for the massive disruption it would bring to an age group that has a nearly 0% death rate worldwide from this disease. They have been correct in keeping them open despite public pressure to close them.

To characterise this as sitting there doing nothing while everywhere else is doing a better job is just not true.

Oh no I’m not saying that, I’m sure they’re running around like headless chickens- it’s more that despite all the talking and planning that I’ve no doubt is going on, they still don’t know what they want to do, and they won’t state what it is, leaving an entire country not knowing what’a actually going to happen and having to rely on leaks and newspapers to try and see what they should be doing.

Take the countries where schools are closed- they know what they’re supposed to do. It’s clear. The uncertainty that is being created right now from the lack of clarity and communication is making things ten times worse. I would say that people at a time like this want to be led, they want clarity- there is none. Are the over 70s being asked to stay inside? Papers say yes, nobody really knows. Are gatherings banned? Most think so but nobody really knows. It’s a recipe for disaster, socially as much as anything else.

 

[pipkin73]

Bollocks, police just about to hit the centre i was in so we have all been kicked out as the bars don't want the massive fines.
I agree, fair enough, they will be like me.
No more income for god knows how long and don't wan't a fine on top).

Quarantine starts NOW and no one is ill with it this side of the island.
(only 16 cases up north and we are all fucked, hysteria)

Loads of business WILL go broke depending on how long it goes on for (including me), i lost most of my money looking after the Mrs when she was ill, insurance would not cover her medical bills.

Anyway, hello to all my CCFC friends (piss off Coventarian), your just a wind up merchant.
I can't move for shit knows how long so i guess you will have to get used to me being on here all the time (poor you lol).
PUSB and lets hope we are all ok

 

[Brylowes]

Oh no I’m not saying that, I’m sure they’re running around like headless chickens- it’s more that despite all the talking and planning that I’ve no doubt is going on, they still don’t know what they want to do, and they won’t state what it is, leaving an entire country not knowing what’a actually going to happen and having to rely on leaks and newspapers to try and see what they should be doing.

Exactly!!
At a time like this It would be nice to see some proper leadership.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Bollocks, police just about to hit the centre i was in so we have all been kicked out as the bars don't want the massive fines.
I agree, fair enough, they will be like me.
No more income for god knows how long and don't wan't a fine on top).

Quarantine starts NOW and no one is ill with it this side of the island.
(only 16 cases up north and we are all fucked, hysteria)

Loads of business WILL go broke depending on how long it goes on for (including me), i lost most of my money looking after the Mrs when she was ill, insurance would not cover her medical bills.

Anyway, hello to all my CCFC friends (piss off Coventarian), your just a wind up merchant.
I can't move for shit knows how long so i guess you will have to get used to me being on here all the time (poor you lol).
PUSB and lets hope we are all ok

All the best to you

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don’t know what nuanced or technocratic aspects there are to it- and that’s my ignorance, not a dispute of what you say, my issue is the social side, by their own numbers they are saying they predict hundreds of thousands of deaths, and that’s at the low end. And millions in intensive care. That’s their own figures. But then again they now seem to be going back on that plan 24 hours later, so what actually is the plan?

This journal article explains it fairly well

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30567-5/fulltext

The numbers worldwide will be ugly by the end of all this because other countries and particularly the USA are doing an objectively worse job of managing the spread and access to treatment. The politicians now have to decide if they are going to cave to public pressure or if they are going to stick to the strategy which itself is designed to adapt to increasing numbers of cases. If working age people get infected in too large a number too quickly then the NHS and economy will collapse under it which is why the containment and delaying measures are essential. The elderly and already infirm have to be kept distanced (but not ignored) and I expect this to come soon.

 

[Brylowes]

Bollocks, police just about to hit the centre i was in so we have all been kicked out as the bars don't want the massive fines.
I agree, fair enough, they will be like me.
No more income for god knows how long and don't wan't a fine on top).

Quarantine starts NOW and no one is ill with it this side of the island.
(only 16 cases up north and we are all fucked, hysteria)

Loads of business WILL go broke depending on how long it goes on for (including me), i lost most of my money looking after the Mrs when she was ill, insurance would not cover her medical bills.

Anyway, hello to all my CCFC friends (piss off Coventarian), your just a wind up merchant.
I can't move for shit knows how long so i guess you will have to get used to me being on here all the time (poor you lol).
PUSB and lets hope we are all ok

Wishing you all the best mate ‘and hopefully this will all be behind us
Sooner rather than later.
Stay safe.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

This journal article explains it fairly well

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30567-5/fulltext

The numbers worldwide will be ugly by the end of all this because other countries and particularly the USA are doing an objectively worse job of managing the spread and access to treatment. The politicians now have to decide if they are going to cave to public pressure or if they are going to stick to the strategy which itself is designed to adapt to increasing numbers of cases. If working age people get infected in too large a number too quickly then the NHS and economy will collapse under it which is why the containment and delaying measures are essential. The elderly and already infirm have to be kept distanced (but not ignored) and I expect this to come soon.

The editor of the lancet is one of the people saying we have it wrong, can’t remember if I said that already. But I in turn hope he’s wrong.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

This journal article explains it fairly well

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30567-5/fulltext

The numbers worldwide will be ugly by the end of all this because other countries and particularly the USA are doing an objectively worse job of managing the spread and access to treatment. The politicians now have to decide if they are going to cave to public pressure or if they are going to stick to the strategy which itself is designed to adapt to increasing numbers of cases. If working age people get infected in too large a number too quickly then the NHS and economy will collapse under it which is why the containment and delaying measures are essential. The elderly and already infirm have to be kept distanced (but not ignored) and I expect this to come soon.

I’ll try to find it but I read an article today which modelled the probabilities of economic impact, and it concluded that in all likelihood the personal financial impact of all this to a hell of a lot of ordinary people will likely kill many times more than the actual virus does.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh no I’m not saying that, I’m sure they’re running around like headless chickens- it’s more that despite all the talking and planning that I’ve no doubt is going on, they still don’t know what they want to do, and they won’t state what it is, leaving an entire country not knowing what’a actually going to happen and having to rely on leaks and newspapers to try and see what they should be doing.

Take the countries where schools are closed- they know what they’re supposed to do. It’s clear. The uncertainty that is being created right now from the lack of clarity and communication is making things ten times worse. I would say that people at a time like this want to be led, they want clarity- there is none. Are the over 70s being asked to stay inside? Papers say yes, nobody really knows. Are gatherings banned? Most think so but nobody really knows. It’s a recipe for disaster, socially as much as anything else.

The government strategy has been publicly available for some time now and we have been updated on where we are in the 'phases' and what the official government advice is, but the framing and messaging has been poor because the politicians themselves are rank average. In my view the correct decisions are being made here but the communication has been way off. Countries where schools are closed now have to find ways of educating huge numbers of children and looking after the children of healthcare professionals and workers who are essential to fighting the disease. That is a leading reason as to why we haven't shut schools here yet.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’ll try to find it but I read an article today which modelled the probabilities of economic impact, and it concluded that in all likelihood the personal financial impact of all this to a hell of a lot of ordinary people will likely kill many times more than the actual virus does.

So just be glad we're not in America

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The government strategy has been publicly available for some time now and we have been updated on where we are in the 'phases' and what the official government advice is, but the framing and messaging has been poor because the politicians themselves are rank average. In my view the correct decisions are being made here but the communication has been way off. Countries where schools are closed now have to find ways of educating huge numbers of children and looking after the children of healthcare professionals and workers who are essential to fighting the disease. That is a leading reason as to why we haven't shut schools here yet.

I don’t know the benefits or otherwise of the school closures, but I know here it’s all being done via Webinar and MS Teams- looks pretty smart apart from I keep getting told to shut up as they can’t hear what’s going on, and there have been a couple of unfortunate incidents of not having speakers muted at certain times

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The editor of the lancet is one of the people saying we have it wrong, can’t remember if I said that already. But I in turn hope he’s wrong.

The paper itself explains the rationale behind what we're doing, editors of course will have their own view and nowhere have I said that Vallance has got it 100% right-I want to see more strict social distancing of the elderly ASAP. But I do think the government has been correct in principle to follow the strategy they have done and, until recently, to stand by it.

 

[Brylowes]

So just be glad we're not in America

You don’t think that applies to here ?