Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (263 Viewers)

[Magwitch]

The Major government was still massively underfunding the NHS, 24 hours to save the NHS and all that

It’s entrenched Conservative policy and has hardened in the last 10 years.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

The Major government was still massively underfunding the NHS, 24 hours to save the NHS and all that

Yup, it's where the priorities are / were. Increase in basics too such as rural bus services, which had been cut to the bone, and services such as museums opened up and democratised.

Many things I'd have done differently, but Blair is the interesting case. Am more aligned to the left of Blair, but give me a choice of then or now and it's a no-brainer. There was even the reintroduction of the idea of society and looking out for one another, rather than the insular inward looking governments before or since.

Anyway, lovely morning, so I must do my daily walking allowance!

 

[Astute]

Never been in such a surreal

If he thinks they weren't totally shit, he's going to say why if you say they were. That doesn't make them constantly defended.

It is, in fact, a debate.

Everything they did that had a bad effect is ignored. We will all have to work longer. We will have vastly reduced private pensions. Both because of a Labour government. The same Labour government that gets the praise. The same Labour government that took us to war on a lie. The same Labour government that was praised by the Tories.

That was not a government for the people.

I am one of the lucky ones. I already had a decent start on a pension before it suddenly changed. But I fear for the future of my kids.

 

[Astute]

The Tories in that time also sent unemployment over 10% twice and were directly responsible for Black Monday.

So at that rate was Labour at fault for everything that happened towards the end of the Bliar and Brown years?

 

[Flying Fokker]

I’m no Blairite, but Blair led us to a decade of sustained growth and rebuilt the public services that had been destroyed by underfunding. I’m not sure some people realise what a state education and health in particular were.

Brown basically eliminated child and pensioner poverty and lead the world response to the GFC saving thousands of jobs. Between them they virtually eliminated homelessness as well. And brought in the NMW and wrote off third world debt. And ran more surpluses than any Tory government.

Not sure you can compare them to Cameron, May and Boris who between them have managed to just divide the country and make it poorer while underfunding public services and raising poverty and homelessness.

Didn’t one of them sell off gold reserves? A great idea at the time, but with rainy day events such as this would surely be easier if we were selling gold now?

 

[Astute]

Im sorry, I know you have this weird bee in your bonnet but on any metric whatsoever Brown and Blair knock the lightweights that followed them into a cocked hat. I hate Thatcher but even I can admit she was effective in pushing her vision for the country forward. And do you even understand what growth is? If the economy grows it by definition is getting better even if it was good before.

We get it. You don’t like politicians and think anyone who points out how melodramatic you are is “defending them”. I’ll leave it at that because I really can’t be arsed with this conversation again. This isn’t becoming the Brexit thread.

Brexit? Is that what your problem is?

Brexit fucked me over as much as every bloody government has for most of my life. The reason why my wife and younger kids live 800 miles away. And now the reason why we don't know when we will see each other again.

But don't worry. I am used to cheap throw away comments being made on here.

 

[Grendel]

The press are making it seem worse than it is. The key word is 'is'.

The problem is that it is going to get much worse. And he either doesn't understand what is happening or he sees it more important he gets in office again than the lives of countless Americans are worth.

The only good news I can think of other than the cleaner environment is it should be the end of Trump politically.

Trump will bury Biden in the election. Bidens skeletons arent even in the closet.

 

[Astute]

We're ramping it up here.
Lockdown (but still some anomalies). Only those over 65 allowed in shops, pharmacies etc between 9 and 12 o'clock. Not allowed outside those times.
But apparently haircuts and manicures considered essential activities!!

Is the country run by a woman?

 

[shmmeee]

Didn’t one of them sell off gold reserves? A great idea at the time, but with rainy day events such as this would surely be easier if we were selling gold now?

Brown sold half the gold, the gold price increased, in hindsight it wasn’t the best time but lots of countries were doing it and hindsight is a wonderful thing. He also reduced the debt to GDP ratio and ran budget surpluses and kept our AAA credit rating.

Was he perfect? Of course not. Was he a different league to those that followed? 100%

 

[Astute]

I wanted the 2017 manifesto again. If you were in my position as a teacher can you see why I just couldn’t vote Conservative? The roof of one of my classrooms fell in a few years ago and the Tories of that time were proposing to cut my school’s funding. Labour were arguing for big investment in education. It was a no brainer.

Our NHS would have had a much better go of fighting this disease with a Labour government in power for the last decade. A real one mind you, not the neoliberal version.

I don't want a Tory government. I want a sensible Labour government. I have already said about how we would have to pay for what we want and what we need.

I agree. We didn't need free internet for all. We needed major changes to what actually changes the quality of life.

 

[Flying Fokker]

And look at this chap...

Mike Ashley 'deeply apologetic' for 'ill-judged' handling of coronavirus crisis | Daily Mail Online

 

[shmmeee]

Brexit? Is that what your problem is?

Brexit fucked me over as much as every bloody government has for most of my life. The reason why my wife and younger kids live 800 miles away. And now the reason why we don't know when we will see each other again.

But don't worry. I am used to cheap throw away comments being made on here.

Can’t stress enough how badly you need to improve your reading comprehension, it would really save you a lot of stress and worry. Just because the word Brexit is in there doesn’t mean I said anything about it. I was referring to your constant diatribes against New Labour on the Brexit thread and how I had no wish to repeat them. As you’re at the victim hood stage of this and I’ve seen this show before I’ll bow out here.

 

[Grendel]

Brown? The sidekick of Bliar. The one who was the brain behind the smile.

The one who decimated our private and public pensions. They speeded up privatisation of the NHS. They took us to war on a lie. People are still dying because of it. They continued where the previous Tory government had left off. They were Tories in disguise. Or how about when we retire? The Labour Government passed a new law in 2007 to raise state pension age to 66 between April 2024 and April 2026, then to 67 between April 2034 and April 2036 and to 68 between April 2044 and April 2046.

I was Labour whatever happened until Bliar and Brown got in. Just like you and many others on here still are. The same people who seem to get off on defending 'New Labour' are the same ones that always attack the Tories.

If this is not the case can someone name the last decent Labour government? They are as bad as each other.

Blair’s first term of office and to an extent the second term was a successful administration - it can’t be argued otherwise. It may have overspent in some areas but at least it has a vision and probably is in line with what most people in the uk politically feel.

What galls me is when people in the Labour Party dismiss those years as not being true labour. They are like the US opposition - on a death wish to stay in opposition it seems

 

[Astute]

It is worth pointing out that they did that on the foundations laid by Majors government. It was widely reported at the time that the 1997 GE was the most important GE in a lifetime as the economic outlook at the time was so good that whoever won the election was basically guaranteed 2 terms.

Exactly. Labour took over a very healthy economy. It was the time to make changes that benefited everyone. Some changes were good but some changes were bad.

 

[Astute]

Didn’t one of them sell off gold reserves? A great idea at the time, but with rainy day events such as this would surely be easier if we were selling gold now?

Brown sold off our gold reserves when gold was at rock bottom prices. The time to sell is at times like now. Prices go sky high and at a time we need the money.

 

[Astute]

Trump will bury Biden in the election. Bidens skeletons arent even in the closet.

America will be in the shit whoever gets in. It would be like the Tories against the Tories in the UK.

 

[Astute]

Brown sold half the gold, the gold price increased, in hindsight it wasn’t the best time but lots of countries were doing it and hindsight is a wonderful thing. He also reduced the debt to GDP ratio and ran budget surpluses and kept our AAA credit rating.

Was he perfect? Of course not. Was he a different league to those that followed? 100%

He also made you work for more years for a much lower pension. Any comments on this?

 

[skybluetony176]

He also made you work for more years for a much lower pension. Any comments on this?

It’s got worse still under the Tories.

 

[Astute]

Can’t stress enough how badly you need to improve your reading comprehension, it would really save you a lot of stress and worry. Just because the word Brexit is in there doesn’t mean I said anything about it. I was referring to your constant diatribes against New Labour on the Brexit thread and how I had no wish to repeat them. As you’re at the victim hood stage of this and I’ve seen this show before I’ll bow out here.

Victim?

Here we go again. Make a reason to bring the word Brexit in. Then blame it on me not being able to comprehend.

Diatribes against New Labour? Fuck me. Tell me what is false on what I have said. The truth hurts those who defend Labour whatever. And you are definitely one of those.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So at that rate was Labour at fault for everything that happened towards the end of the Bliar and Brown years?

You take each thing case by case. In 2008 we had a horrendous global financial crisis. George Osborne later admitted that the Brown government’s response was necessary-so were they in charge you’d have had the same or similar response.

Thatcher’s government ruthlessly destroyed industry with no thought for the consequences. But this is old ground. A decade of the Tories cutting everything is now coming home to roost.

 

[Grendel]

He also made you work for more years for a much lower pension. Any comments on this?

I know you fixate on this one issue and it was an unnecessary act by Brown but Brown was the best chancellor we have had for as long as I can remember

Brown would have been a good PM. His problem was he was an old school politician with genuine conviction and beliefs. He tried to use the same spin tactics as his actor friend who went before and had the then tainted legacy of Blair and Campbell so he never really had a chance.

If Blair hadn’t allowed Campbell to control everything (and there should be a warning to Johnson here) the political landscape now would be very different

 

[shmmeee]

You take each thing case by case. In 2008 we had a horrendous global financial crisis. George Osborne later admitted that the Brown government’s response was necessary-so were they in charge you’d have had the same or similar response.

Thatcher’s government ruthlessly destroyed industry with no thought for the consequences. But this is old ground. A decade of the Tories cutting everything is now coming home to roost.

The Tories backed all the Labour spending plans under Osborne. The “Labour spent too much” was pure politics. Our response to 2008 was exemplary and it shows when you compare how other countries see Brown to how we do.

 

[clint van damme]

My pals in New York had to fly to Atlanta then back here so yeah we are still letting them In mate it’s madness

Are they from the UK?
I think repatriation of citizens, is a bit different to just letting people fly in Willy nilly

 

[Astute]

Blair’s first term of office and to an extent the second term was a successful administration - it can’t be argued otherwise. It may have overspent in some areas but at least it has a vision and probably is in line with what most people in the uk politically feel.

What galls me is when people in the Labour Party dismiss those years as not being true labour. They are like the US opposition - on a death wish to stay in opposition it seems

The first term was going to be successful for whoever got in. Labour had the chance of changing things for the good. But they ended up changing our long term futures for the worse.

Not true Labour? Why did the Tories love him so much?

Owen Jones: It's time to demolish the myth about Tony Blair

 

[Astute]

It’s got worse still under the Tories.

Yes it did. But the crash when Labour were in charge had a big say in it. Labour took over at a best time for generations.

 

[Grendel]

The first term was going to be successful for whoever got in. Labour had the chance of changing things for the good. But they ended up changing our long term futures for the worse.

Not true Labour? Why did the Tories love him so much?

Owen Jones: It's time to demolish the myth about Tony Blair

I wouldn’t say Owen Jones is a great example to support an argument

 

[Astute]

Are they from the UK?
I think repatriation of citizens, is a bit different to just letting people fly in Willy nilly

Repatriation of citizens changes with situations and countries. I could get to France as I could prove I live there. But I would be fooked if I tried to get back to England although I also live here. Had a hard enough time getting back to England last time and that was before any borders were closed. Even got quizzed on why I live in Cumbria if I was born in Coventry. Took my passport and dissapear for about 20 minutes. Came back then let me go.

Seems like they are making the rules up as they go along. If travelling anywhere all you can do is hope for the best.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

I know you fixate on this one issue and it was an unnecessary act by Brown but Brown was the best chancellor we have had for as long as I can remember

Brown would have been a good PM. His problem was he was an old school politician with genuine conviction and beliefs. He tried to use the same spin tactics as his actor friend who went before and had the then tainted legacy of Blair and Campbell so he never really had a chance.

If Blair hadn’t allowed Campbell to control everything (and there should be a warning to Johnson here) the political landscape now would be very different

A wise piece of advice to Boris there regarding Cummings.
Labor had a dream team and if they had all read the same script pre Iraq then it would have been a very long tenure for Labor, however Brown couldn't keep his ambition at bay and Blair was weakened by Iraq.
Brown was a very good chancellor but wasn't a front man. Blair was a front man. Clough and Taylor if you wish.

 

[Astute]

I wouldn’t say Owen Jones is a great example to support an argument

Who would you like as an example? Plenty of articles saying exactly the same.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I know you fixate on this one issue and it was an unnecessary act by Brown but Brown was the best chancellor we have had for as long as I can remember

Brown would have been a good PM. His problem was he was an old school politician with genuine conviction and beliefs. He tried to use the same spin tactics as his actor friend who went before and had the then tainted legacy of Blair and Campbell so he never really had a chance.

If Blair hadn’t allowed Campbell to control everything (and there should be a warning to Johnson here) the political landscape now would be very different

The irony is those strengths were exactly what the country would have bought into if he'd let himself show them. People v wanted not Blair, not a poor impression of him.

 

[MalcSB]

Coronavirus UK: Could deaths be lower than feared? | Dailyves Mail Online

New research shows that if Britain follows the same trajectory as China then 5,700 people, not 20,000, are expected to die - and the peak could be a week from Sunday.

A new paper by Professor Tom Pike, from Imperial College London, compares deaths for confirmed Covid-19 cases in China with eight other countries - all of which have implemented some form of social distancing measures.

The estimates for the UK - if it follows the same trajectory as China - shows the UK could have 5,700 deaths, and the daily peak would be 260 fatalities on April 5.

My observation is that whenever there is a crisis there always seems to be some scientists who want to jump on bandwagons. Imperial have hedged there bets - it could be 500,000 deaths, now it could be 20,000.

 

[Grendel]

Who would you like as an example? Plenty of articles saying exactly the same.

The Labour Party doesn’t have to be have the values of Kier Hardy - you try and pigeon hole people and use juvenile arguments - a bit like Owen Jones

 

[shmmeee]

My observation is that whenever there is a crisis there always seems to be some scientists who want to jump on bandwagons. Imperial have hedged there bets - it could be 500,000 deaths, now it could be 20,000.

Its really bad reporting. It’s a different group at Imperial who aren’t epidemiologists and it assumes we follow the same curve as China which is frankly ridiculous. For one their numbers aren’t likely to be accurate and for two we aren’t about to weld people into their homes. And for three we don’t even know China’s epidemic is over.

This second report if definitely bandwagon jumping and looking at Twitter has pissed off the experts in the field. The reporting of it is frankly irresponsible.

 

[cc84cov]

Are they from the UK?
I think repatriation of citizens, is a bit different to just letting people fly in Willy nilly

My pal is from cov mate he’s flying back tomorrow

 

[Astute]

The Labour Party doesn’t have to be have the values of Kier Hardy - you try and pigeon hole people and use juvenile arguments - a bit like Owen Jones

That is great coming from you.