George Floyd (23 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Disagree. America massively airbrushes it's past. China completes hides theirs. I imagine a lot of less well known countries do the same.

If we do have a troubled relationship with our past it's because we do try, in some way, to recognise that not all of it is pleasant.

Other countries don't have a troubled relationship with their past because they don't acknowledge those flaws.

Dare to mention it but the way Germany has dealt with its Nazi past is the model to follow I think. If they can manage it with genocidal maniacs, we can surely find a way with slave traders and colonialists.

 

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[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Bristol has spoken - most people are glad the Colston statue was pulled down

The CovTel's sister paper - and no evidence of any of those 10,000 respondents being from Bristol. But enough people from wherever have answered, so it has SOME validity. Just didn't specifically answer @SIR ERNIE 's question.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

IMO it should be removed but can see why it remains as he was the catalyst leading to modern parliament (even if his actions were effectively King in all but name) and without it we may have remained under an absolutist monarchy for much longer.

He was, in modern terms, a religious extremist and zealot who's actions if attributed to say Al Qaeda would be that of a terrorist.

He wasn't even the brains behind much of the Parliamentarian success - he became the 'poster' boy/ PR representative based on his own ambition rather than altruism. A Civil War Boris.

Agreed, but his Irish campaign probably makes a statue of him about as justified as one of Trevelyan. As a republican it's odd for me to be arguing possible removal of the most famous republican of them all but I'm quite surprised his name hasn't come up.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Dare to mention it but the way Germany has dealt with its Nazi past is the model to follow I think. If they can manage it with genocidal maniacs, we can surely find a way with slave traders and colonialists.

Spot on.

 

[Grendel]

seriously? based on just 10k responses?

Bristol has a population pushing 700k.

Bless him his not the smartest tool in the box is he

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

But the thing with Colston is was at the time such an attitude wasn't just acceptable it was pretty much expected.

In hundreds of years time the entrepreneurs of todays may well be looked upon as despicable because they paid their workers far less than was fair and there was huge inequality. In the current climate they're seen by many as sensible and prudent business people.

What I (as a Bristolian by birth) didn't know, until i watched that clip of David Olusoga which @David O'Day posted, was that Colston's statue wasn't erected until 1895, when he died in 1721. It was probably anachronistic when it went up, although Baden-Powell was still hanging Zimbabweans from trees in 1895!

 

[Grendel]

The CovTel's sister paper - and no evidence of any of those 10,000 respondents being from Bristol. But enough people from wherever have answered, so it has SOME validity. Just didn't specifically answer @SIR ERNIE 's question.

ROS will just make bland statements for likes and ignore these points as it shows his childlike style of debate

 

[skybluetony176]

Dare to mention it but the way Germany has dealt with its Nazi past is the model to follow I think. If they can manage it with genocidal maniacs, we can surely find a way with slave traders and colonialists.

Exactly. You don’t walk around Germany seeing statues of Nazis and people arguing we should leave them up because he was good to his mum.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Agreed, but his Irish campaign probably makes a statue of him about as justified as one of Trevelyan. As a republican it's odd for me to be arguing possible removal of the most famous republican of them all but I'm quite surprised his name hasn't come up.

give it time

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Dare to mention it but the way Germany has dealt with its Nazi past is the model to follow I think. If they can manage it with genocidal maniacs, we can surely find a way with slave traders and colonialists.

I agree. But unfortunately it hasn't stopped the Neo-Nazi element in the country either. It's still very uncomfortable for them, but in historic terms is still recent - within living memory for some.

The only way you could determine the effect is to be able to view the alternate reality whereby Hitler is airbrushed from history in Germany and see how the views of the population differed. Would there be even more extremism if they had? My instinct tells me yes but you never know.

 

[Grendel]

give it time

See my post above his - case closed

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Exactly. You don’t walk around Germany seeing statues of Nazis and people arguing we should leave them up because he was good to his mum.

At the same time, they have even preserved concentration camps in close to their original form to be used for everyone to learn about and you'll quite easily get German tour guides to explain all the history. The same in the former East Germany with the Stasi museum as one example. One German family was going round it with their children who seemed bored but the parents insisted to them how important it was to learn about. Not a fun family outing, but present it in the right way and you can grow up without a blinkered view of your country's past.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

At the same time, they have even preserved concentration camps in close to their original form to be used for everyone to learn about and you'll quite easily get German tour guides to explain all the history. The same in the former East Germany with the Stasi museum as one example. One German family was going round it with their children who seemed bored but the parents insisted to them how important it was to learn about. Not a fun family outing, but present it in the right way and you can grow up without a blinkered view of your country's past.

Exactly- thats the example. not have statues up celebrating these people in public areas. Do that against public will and you end up with situations as we've just seen, people take it into their own hands which isn't good.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I agree. But unfortunately it hasn't stopped the Neo-Nazi element in the country either. It's still very uncomfortable for them, but in historic terms is still recent - within living memory for some.

The only way you could determine the effect is to be able to view the alternate reality whereby Hitler is airbrushed from history in Germany and see how the views of the population differed. Would there be even more extremism if they had? My instinct tells me yes but you never know.

I'm not surprised that that element has risen back up as living memories of the atrocities and conflict have faded. The dealing with the former East German regime and its actions has also been quite admirable.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

At the same time, they have even preserved concentration camps in close to their original form to be used for everyone to learn about and you'll quite easily get German tour guides to explain all the history. The same in the former East Germany with the Stasi museum as one example. One German family was going round it with their children who seemed bored but the parents insisted to them how important it was to learn about. Not a fun family outing, but present it in the right way and you can grow up without a blinkered view of your country's past.

EDIT - sorry i misunderstood the tone of your post.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

What I (as a Bristolian by birth) didn't know, until i watched that clip of David Olusoga which @David O'Day posted, was that Colston's statue wasn't erected until 1895, when he died in 1721. It was probably anachronistic when it went up, although Baden-Powell was still hanging Zimbabweans from trees in 1895!

Victorian era - age of empire and strong belief of British superiority. Also the age of industrialists who were hardly renowned for fair employment practices so I imagine for them how someone who'd generated vast wealth and helped build the city made that money was of no consequence to them.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Can you imagine the outcry if they proposed to demolish Auschwitz-Birkenau saying it celebrated a grisly history?

But who is going to propose that when the place clearly serves as a lesson in the depths humanity sunk to? I'm not sure if anyone goes there and sees it as celebrating these things. A statue in a public place with some nice words about the guy they're commemorating however...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

EDIT - sorry i misunderstood the tone of your post.

No worries, again it's not always obvious online

 

[Grendel]

At the same time, they have even preserved concentration camps in close to their original form to be used for everyone to learn about and you'll quite easily get German tour guides to explain all the history. The same in the former East Germany with the Stasi museum as one example. One German family was going round it with their children who seemed bored but the parents insisted to them how important it was to learn about. Not a fun family outing, but present it in the right way and you can grow up without a blinkered view of your country's past.

What does it educate it’s citizens on its colonial past? How do Spain, Netherlands Portugal and Belgium and Italy do so? This surely is the more relevant point. Also how does Eire show it’s mistakes in its past association and support for Hitler?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What does it educate it’s citizens on its colonial past? How do Spain, Netherlands Portugal and Belgium and Italy do so? This surely is the more relevant point. Also how does Eire show it’s mistakes in its past association and support for Hitler?

I don't know how all those countries do that. What I do find significant though is how a country with the most heinous and divisive past of them all has dealt with it in terms of education in the present and commemoration of those who suffered. There were some unfortunate comments from De Valera when Bergen-Belsen was discovered, but can you actually argue that the Irish nation as a whole was behind Hitler?

 

[Grendel]

I don't know how all those countries do that. What I do find significant though is how a country with the most heinous and divisive past of them all has dealt with it in terms of education in the present and commemoration of those who suffered. There were some unfortunate comments from De Valera when Bergen-Belsen was discovered, but can you actually argue that the Irish nation as a whole was behind Hitler?

I was referencing the tearing down of statues regarding Ireland and the curious notion Baden Powell is seen as a sympathiser and yet there is no uprising in Ireland - just ambivalence

Can you honestly say the likes of Spain Portugal and Netherlands are not as equal in colonial exploitation - really?

 

[shmmeee]

How many Bristolians participated in that survey?

That wasn’t what coventrian said though. From what I’ve gleaned of the local situation quite a few.

Have a read of this, people have been campaigning for its removal for over 20 years. Statue of Edward Colston - Wikipedia

 

[skybluetony176]

I don't know how all those countries do that. What I do find significant though is how a country with the most heinous and divisive past of them all has dealt with it in terms of education in the present and commemoration of those who suffered. There were some unfortunate comments from De Valera when Bergen-Belsen was discovered, but can you actually argue that the Irish nation as a whole was behind Hitler?

More catholic Irish men died fighting the Nazis as soldiers in the British Army than died fighting the British army in the republican cause. So absolutely the nation as a whole wasn’t behind the Nazis.

 

[skybluetony176]

I was referencing the tearing down of statues regarding Ireland and the curious notion Baden Powell is seen as a sympathiser and yet there is no uprising in Ireland - just ambivalence

Can you honestly say the likes of Spain Portugal and Netherlands are not as equal in colonial exploitation - really?

Baden Powell wasn’t just a Nazi sympathiser though and actually it’s his exploits in Africa that is the major reason people are calling for his statue to come down. But you just gloss over that if you like.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

More catholic Irish men died fighting the Nazis as soldiers in the British Army than died fighting the British army in the republican cause. So absolutely the nation as a whole wasn’t behind the Nazis.

There are some awkward questions to ask of Scottish nationalists from that time, Hugh McDiarmid as one notable example.

 

[David O'Day]

More catholic Irish men died fighting the Nazis as soldiers in the British Army than died fighting the British army in the republican cause. So absolutely the nation as a whole wasn’t behind the Nazis.

Exactly, My Irish born and raised Catholic grandfather was in the Royal Navy 1939 to 1946

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I was referencing the tearing down of statues regarding Ireland and the curious notion Baden Powell is seen as a sympathiser and yet there is no uprising in Ireland - just ambivalence

Can you honestly say the likes of Spain Portugal and Netherlands are not as equal in colonial exploitation - really?

I didn't argue for tearing down Cromwell's statue, just expressed surprise that it hadn't been mentioned by the activists. I also didn't deny the actions of the other countries though I have been to the colonial exhibits at the Rijksmuseum where there isn't much glorification of it to be seen. I just said I'm not an expert in what these countries do to awkward truths from their past.

Don't even really know what you're arguing here. The way Germany as a divided and then reunified country has dealt with a pretty horrific 20th century is a model for other countries to follow-no controversy there surely?

 

[Ian1779]

Although I'm often in agreement with you it's not necessarily the case. Have you never had a conversation with someone who's fed up with the direction the country is going in and just asked 'why don't you leave?" Not in a bigoted or racist way but genuinely why don't you choose to emigrate somewhere better? I've got French/Canadian neighbours and often ask myself why do they stay rather than go home? This surely can't be better can it?

If it was someone else in a different context then I could see your point. However I think there is enough ‘previous’ to suggest that it was a loaded statement. But that could be down to individual perception.

That’s not to say he’s anywhere near the level of Farage.

 

[skybluetony176]

Exactly, My Irish born and raised Catholic grandfather was in the Royal Navy 1939 to 1946

Thank you grandfather O’Day

 

[Ring Of Steel]

More catholic Irish men died fighting the Nazis as soldiers in the British Army than died fighting the British army in the republican cause. So absolutely the nation as a whole wasn’t behind the Nazis.

Proportionately more Irish volunteered for the British army than from any other nation, 27% of them became NCOs, a higher percentage than the English. There was also lots of 'behind the scenes' co-operation. A divided country for sure at that time, trying to work out who was the bigger enemy & plenty of soldiers got abuse when getting back to Ireland. On the other side of that again, there are lots of WW1 & WW2 memorials in Ireland, there's one not more than 10 miles away from me right now, and thats in a 'neutral' country. Therefore stating that everyone in Ireland was a huge nazi sympathiser is just... well a slightly bizarre notion to say the least.

 

[shmmeee]

The CovTel's sister paper - and no evidence of any of those 10,000 respondents being from Bristol. But enough people from wherever have answered, so it has SOME validity. Just didn't specifically answer @SIR ERNIE 's question.

Mate. There’s been campaigns in Bristol for 20 odd years, it’s only it’s listed status and the fact it’s privately owned that have saved it. Give up this idea that no one had a problem with it. You’re more sensible than this usually.

 

[David O'Day]

Thank you grandfather O’Day

OG Antifa

 

[The coventrian]

That would be a wager you would lose:

View attachment 15403



Why not? You may have noticed a world wide anti racism protest happening now.



If you can point me to a long running campaign to remove Mandelas statue sure. Not sure one exists though.

I was on about all statues that these people apparently now want removed and the stuff that khan was on about. Put it to a public vote. I think the majority of people would stick 2 fingers up and say fuck off.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Proportionately more Irish volunteered for the British army than from any other nation, 27% of them became NCOs, a higher percentage than the English. There was also lots of 'behind the scenes' co-operation. A divided country for sure at that time, trying to work out who was the bigger enemy & plenty of soldiers got abuse when getting back to Ireland. On the other side of that again, there are lots of WW1 & WW2 memorials in Ireland, there's one not more than 10 miles away from me right now, and thats in a 'neutral' country. Therefore stating that everyone in Ireland was a huge nazi sympathiser is just... well a slightly bizarre notion to say the least.

Not least also the signs of solidarity given following the Belfast Blitz. Would be a strange thing to do if you were supporting the Luftwaffe

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I was on about all statues that these people apparently now want removed and the stuff that khan was on about. Put it to a public vote. I think the majority of people would stick 2 fingers up and say fuck off.

You also thought that most people would be ok with shooting the dinghies.