George Floyd (18 Viewers)

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Perhaps ADM this is actually a measure of inequality in the education system between black and white kids meaning that as a reflection of that there’s a disproportionately low number of black kids going to university meaning that there’s a disproportionately low amount of black people with a carrier in law meaning that there’s a disproportionately low number of black judges.

And why is there a disproportionslly low number going to university ? Why are they not getting the grades ? Are you saying that in a mixed class with white kids it's the white kids that get the grades and the black kids that don't? Who's to blame for that ?

 

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[skybluetony176]

In what way? There are no different classrooms based on skin colour, obviously each school's level of teaching and quality is different but kids within the school would get offered the same level of education.

My daughter has black African, Caribbean and Asian kids in her class and they all get the opportunity as her to learn. It will be different when it comes to uni age as that's where you need to pay.

Also, they all integrate really well. There's no section of white kids, no group of asian kids etc. How it should be.

Again, the discussion is about learning so I am more than happy to learn the difference when told!

Same as my daughters schools. But then I live in Rugby and not a deprived area of a city where the schools for that catchment area are attended by a majority black populace. Not sure what your point is.

 

[David O'Day]

People don't seem to get that economic injustice is part of the issue of structural racism

 

[Nick]

No because they have opened it up to a lot more white people but not black people.

Not sure if you know how you become a barrister but you have serve a pupilage at a chambers and these chambers still overwhelming pick white candidates.

It's hard to comment on that particular one without knowing the breakdown of applicants, surely?

ie. Rich white kids, rich black kids, poor white kids, poor black kids, rich asian kids, poor asian kids etc.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

In what way? There are no different classrooms based on skin colour, obviously each school's level of teaching and quality is different but kids within the school would get offered the same level of education.

My daughter has black African, Caribbean and Asian kids in her class and they all get the opportunity as her to learn. It will be different when it comes to uni age as that's where you need to pay.

Also, they all integrate really well. There's no section of white kids, no group of asian kids etc. How it should be.

Again, the discussion is about learning so I am more than happy to learn the difference when told!

Completely agree 100%. It seems to me that lots of people are making excuses . The problems are not in the classroom: the opportunities there are the same for everyone. If it's about funding then there may be an issue but as far as opportunities within schools it's the same for everyone.

 

[Nick]

Same as my daughters schools. But then I live in Rugby and not a deprived area of a city where the schools for that catchment area are attended by a majority black populace. Not sure what your point is.

What does catchment area and majority black have to do with it?

Sidney Stringer and President Kennedy are both ranked Outstanding by Ofsted and are in Hillfields and Holbrooks.

 

[Grendel]

And why is there a disproportionslly low number going to university ? Why are they not getting the grades ? Are you saying that in a mixed class with white kids it's the white kids that get the grades and the black kids that don't? Who's to blame for that ?

There isn’t a disproportionately low number is there? Where is this coming from?

 

[skybluetony176]

And why is there a disproportionslly low number going to university ? Why are they not getting the grades ? Are you saying that in a mixed class with white kids it's the white kids that get the grades and the black kids that don't? Who's to blame for that ?

You started of really well in that post asking the right questions. Then went to rat shit.
It’s not in area’s where the country is reasonably well integrated where the real issue is. It’s in areas of cities that are deprived, underfunded, majority black populace, going to schools that are underfunded. The lack of opportunity can be as simple as a postcode and the demographics between those postcodes. In some places that can even be narrowed down to which part of the street you live in. Look at Grenfell Tower for example.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

It's hard to comment on that particular one without knowing the breakdown of applicants, surely?

ie. Rich white kids, rich black kids, poor white kids, poor black kids, rich asian kids, poor asian kids etc.

Yes, it goes on and on and on. I think too many people right now have too much time on their hands .
"Look , I've noticed there are hardly any black elderly people living in bungalows.That can't be right. They must be being discriminated against. Let's go on a march. Then I'll clean the car later. "

 

[Nick]

People don't seem to get that economic injustice is part of the issue of structural racism

Class isn't always based on skin colour though, is it?

 

[David O'Day]

Class isn't always based on skin colour though, is it?

No but skin colour can lead to economic injustice

But it seems to me people are wilfully misrepresenting what David Lammy is saying. He is talking about the number of black lawyers who are selected to be judges i.e. black people who have entered the legal system already and why they are not made judges once qualified.

 

[skybluetony176]

What does catchment area and majority black have to do with it?

Sidney Stringer and President Kennedy are both ranked Outstanding by Ofsted and are in Hillfields and Holbrooks.

You’re actually ignoring the problem by highlighting a solution. You’re talking about your daughter going to a school where there’s integration and as a result you would hope more equal opportunity. You’re living in a snapshot of your own personal experience and thinking that translates into every part of the country. It doesn’t.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Completely agree 100%. It seems to me that lots of people are making excuses . The problems are not in the classroom: the opportunities there are the same for everyone. If it's about funding then there may be an issue but as far as opportunities within schools it's the same for everyone.

"the opportunities there are the same for everyone"

And right here we have the very reason for the BLM movement & other associated attempts to raise consciousness of what actually happens in the real world- to raise awareness that this extravagantly naive type of view is widely held & people don't actually see what the problem is, rather they see a load of excuses.

 

[Grendel]

This shows as a proportion or population you are more likely to go to university now if your black than white doesn’t it?

Entry rates into higher education

 

[Nick]

You started of really well in that post asking the right questions. Then went to rat shit.
It’s not in area’s where the country is reasonably well integrated where the real issue is. It’s in areas of cities that are deprived, underfunded, majority black populace, going to schools that are underfunded. The lack of opportunity can be as simple as a postcode and the demographics between those postcodes. In some places that can even be narrowed down to which part of the street you live in. Look at Grenfell Tower for example.

Schools are based on postcode regardless of race though?

Yeah, some areas will have parts that are rich and expensive and then just up the road it will be the total opposite. I think that every time I drive down Kenilworth Road, Tamworth Road or into Solihull.

I get that there will be areas that will be majority black but this is a genuine question. What stops people moving? Are councils putting black people into a particular area compared to white people?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

You started of really well in that post asking the right questions. Then went to rat shit.
It’s not in area’s where the country is reasonably well integrated where the real issue is. It’s in areas of cities that are deprived, underfunded, majority black populace, going to schools that are underfunded. The lack of opportunity can be as simple as a postcode and the demographics between those postcodes. In some places that can even be narrowed down to which part of the street you live in. Look at Grenfell Tower for example.

Lots of deprived areas in the UK are not specifically black areas.

 

[Nick]

"the opportunities there are the same for everyone"

And right here we have the very reason for the BLM movement & other associated attempts to raise consciousness of what actually happens in the real world- to raise awareness that this extravagantly naive type of view is widely held & people don't actually see what the problem is, rather they see a load of excuses.

Again, can you tell me what opportunities a black kid in my daughters class (she's 11) doesn't get that a white kid does when at school?

It's about discussion, rather than throwing ignorance and race cards about and saying people are naive and blind.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

And why is there a disproportionslly low number going to university ? Why are they not getting the grades ? Are you saying that in a mixed class with white kids it's the white kids that get the grades and the black kids that don't? Who's to blame for that ?

You've got this all wrong- there is not a "disproportionately low number" going to University. In fact data suggests the opposite is true. The issue is more that once leaving university the same opportunities can often not be available. As an example- about 10% students are black, however under 1% are professors. Its not all racism, obviously, and its more complex than this kind of lazy analysis- but to deny there is an issue is just crazy.

 

[Nick]

You've got this all wrong- there is not a "disproportionately low number" going to University. In fact data suggests the opposite is true. The issue is more that once leaving university the same opportunities can often not be available. As an example- about 10% students are black, however under 1% are professors. Its not all racism, obviously, and its more complex than this kind of lazy analysis- but to deny there is an issue is just crazy.

OK so that's where the breakdown of courses and qualifications need to be looked at. How many black students are there compared to white on particular courses where they don't follow through into jobs related to the course where they could be professors?

People aren't denying anything. This is the issue, there's a discussion and no facts or stats or anything. When people ask questions they just get labelled as naive, white privilege and in some cases "racist" for asking those questions.

How are "white people" going to learn if that's the level of discussion that comes back when questions are asked?

 

[David O'Day]

Schools are based on postcode regardless of race though?

Yeah, some areas will have parts that are rich and expensive and then just up the road it will be the total opposite. I think that every time I drive down Kenilworth Road, Tamworth Road or into Solihull.

I get that there will be areas that will be majority black but this is a genuine question. What stops people moving? Are councils putting black people into a particular area compared to white people?

BAME tend to congregate together in similar areas for economic and historical reasons. The housing is usually cheaper and also their communities are based in these areas as these areas are the only ones where they could originally get housing.

Originally when these people then tried to move to "nicer" areas the white population of these areas made it clear they were not welcome thus they stick to the historical community.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Again, can you tell me what opportunities a black kid in my daughters class (she's 11) doesn't get that a white kid does when at school?

It's about discussion, rather than throwing ignorance and race cards about and saying people are naive and blind.

Like I just said- the issue is not about having opportunities available in school or at university, its more what happens after then, and it is way more complex than talking about Sidney Stringer school & attempting to use that to demonstrate that actually there is no racism issue once people get into the wide world after education.

 

[Nick]

BAME tend to congregate together in similar areas for economic and historical reasons. The housing is usually cheaper and also their communities are based in these areas as these areas are the only ones where they could originally get housing.

Originally when these people then tried to move to "nicer" areas the white population of these areas made it clear they were not welcome thus they stick to the historical community.

OK so how come for example a BAME family (or a white family, or asian) could be socially housed or placed in Hillfields (where a lot are) and get access to a better school than a white kid like my daughter? Same with Holbrooks.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I'd trust David Lammy a black lawyer on matters of black people and the law establishment over some walloper like ADM

Thanks, Gerry adams' fan club.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

OK so that's where the breakdown of courses and qualifications need to be looked at. How many black students are there compared to white on particular courses where they don't follow through into jobs related to the course where they could be professors?

People aren't denying anything. This is the issue, there's a discussion and no facts or stats or anything. When people ask questions they just get labelled as naive, white privilege and in some cases "racist" for asking those questions.

How are "white people" going to learn if that's the level of discussion that comes back when questions are asked?

You're dead right, it is for discussion, thats how people learn, however throwing around terms like "race card" & making massively sweeping statements like "everyone gets the same opportunities" just tends to suggest that conclusions have already been made, when its way, way more complex than that.

Edit- whoever said it was dead on, it links to class & perceptions of class.

 

[Nick]

Like I just said- the issue is not about having opportunities available in school or at university, its more what happens after then, and it is way more complex than talking about Sidney Stringer school & attempting to use that to demonstrate that actually there is no racism issue once people get into the wide world after education.

Point out to me where I have said there is no racism.

I am trying to learn more about it from somebody who is saying there is, I am trying to find out where the issue lies.

You aren't saying that or giving me more information, you are just accusing me of denying it and that I have said things I haven't.

 

[skybluetony176]

What people also need to recognise is what their children are currently experiencing in school isn’t a reflection on the opportunity to become a judge now. For instance, I think you can become a Magistrate at 18 IIRC but the vast majority are over 30 and even over 50. So these people were most likely in the educational system 20,30,40 years ago, a very different time. If you want to be a judge at a higher level you need the relevant law qualifications and a certain amount of experience working in law so past being a magistrate the opportunity diminishes again.

 

[Nick]

You're dead right, it is for discussion, thats how people learn, however throwing around terms like "race card" & making massively sweeping statements like "everyone gets the same opportunities" just tends to suggest that conclusions have already been made, when its way, way more complex than that.

As I said, every kid in my daughter's class gets the same opportunity for school so WHERE do the issues begin in education?

Rather than telling me things I haven't said or making out I am denying things I haven't, you aren't explaining where it's happening and where the issue lies.

Why is mentioning that 2 of the best schools in Coventry are in particularly "bad" areas and have a fairly high BAME number of pupils irrelevant? Again I am just basing that on facts and statistics.

These are the discussions that need to be had, it's alright kneeling and scrapping and it may mean some people bang on about me being blind, white privilege or naive but when you give people like me the answers then they will learn.

 

[David O'Day]

Like I just said- the issue is not about having opportunities available in school or at university, its more what happens after then, and it is way more complex than talking about Sidney Stringer school & attempting to use that to demonstrate that actually there is no racism issue once people get into the wide world after education.

This is the issue, the education system is one of the few systems were they have made good strides in tackling structural racism. It's what happens when these kids leave the system that is the issue. Why qualified black barristers are being overlooked for judge roles, why black law graduates with great results in their law degree find it harder to find a chambers willing to take them on a as a trainee.

Do not get me wrong there is a massive issue with the under performance of poor white kids in the education system especially away from the cities but this is a different issue and will be to do with the decline of the traditional working class industries.

 

[Grendel]

Thanks, Gerry adams' fan club.

Thwee are no stats to support the argument it’s nothing to do with race but demographics - the thing is having shown the general view that black peoples have less chance of going to a university than a white person of course goalposts move to the type of course and profession but it’s still irrelevant

The fact is a white child has a far less chance of aspiring to be a judge from a council estate in Sunderland than a black person who has lawyer patents and lives in Guildford

 

[David O'Day]

As I said, every kid in my daughter's class gets the same opportunity for school so WHERE do the issues begin in education?

Rather than telling me things I haven't said or making out I am denying things I haven't, you aren't explaining where it's happening and where the issue lies.

Why is mentioning that 2 of the best schools in Coventry are in particularly "bad" areas and have a fairly high BAME number of pupils irrelevant? Again I am just basing that on facts and statistics.

These are the discussions that need to be had, it's alright kneeling and scrapping and it may mean some people bang on about me being blind, white privilege or naive but when you give people like me the answers then they will learn.

But we've said many times already the issues are when these kids leave the education system

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Of course, there will be racist people within power who will use it

I used to rock about in an RS Turbo, I was pulled over a couple of times a week just because of that. Are polite stop and searching black people outside Canary Wharf for example or are they stopping gangs of youths or searching people suspected of having knives? I don't doubt that there will be racist people just targeting but if in London for example knife crime / gangs are made up of more black people then the majority stopped and searched will be black. Change that to somewhere up north (lets say Liverpool) where more gangs may be white then you would expect more white people to be searched. That's not saying suspicious white people shouldn't be stopped and searched, far from it.

I guess a lot of Asian communities really push their kids from an early age and it's much more important for their kid to be a doctor or a solicitor than it was for me to become either when I was growing up.

What you're suggesting Nick is that people are actually different and may have different priorities . I agree completely with the last paragraph in particular.
Whereas priorities for you ( and me) may be different, perhaps that's also the case for some other groups.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

As I said, every kid in my daughter's class gets the same opportunity for school so WHERE do the issues begin in education? I

I just said- if the discussion is about the issues, they are highly unlikely to be solved by looking at the environments of school or university entrants. The university dropout rate is also much higher, and attainment levels are much lower- and its linked closely to class, its not only a race issue but they are intertwined.

 

[Nick]

This is the issue, the education system is one of the few systems were they have made good strides in tackling structural racism. It's what happens when these kids leave the system that is the issue. Why qualified black barristers are being overlooked for judge roles, why black law graduates with great results in their law degree find it harder to find a chambers willing to take them on a as a trainee.

Do not get me wrong there is a massive issue with the under performance of poor white kids in the education system especially away from the cities but this is a different issue and will be to do with the decline of the traditional working class industries.

This discussion is from Tony saying about the inequality in the education system though? Hence I asked what opportunity a black kid in my daughter's class has different to a white kid while at school.

I have been told I am naive and that I am denying racism happens but I still haven't been told an answer.

 

[Nick]

But we've said many times already the issues are when these kids leave the education system

Erm...

Perhaps ADM this is actually a measure of inequality in the education system between black and white kids meaning that as a reflection of that there’s a disproportionately low number of black kids going to university meaning that there’s a disproportionately low amount of black people with a carrier in law meaning that there’s a disproportionately low number of black judges.

This is why we are discussing education and why I asked that question.

So now there isn't an issue in education at all and it's when they leave it? So I am not naive or denying racism then?

I am in no way denying racism, I am trying to discuss and figure out at which point it occurs most in that example.

Maybe the issue is educating "white privilege" people like me who "deny" racism exists? It probably needs somebody better to do the educating than people who don't really seem to know themselves and just throw silly terms about when asked sensible questions.

I'd much rather listen and learn from somebody who has been through it and will discuss it, answer questions etc than somebody who sees it on social media and becomes an expert or an angry protestor who sticks labels on people if they dare to ask anything.

 

[David O'Day]

Erm...



This is why we are discussing education and why I asked that question.

So now there isn't an issue in education at all and it's when they leave it? So I am not naive or denying racism then?

I am in no way denying racism, I am trying to discuss and figure out at which point it occurs most in that example.

I haven't said that though have I.